Driving standards

[newbryford]

One of our cars reads the speed limits from road signs and displays them on the dash, and the other has that data on the sat nav. So why bother learning when the vehicle can tell you what the limit is? Both also have speed limiters, and TBH I'd like to see their use to be mandatory as a step towards autonomous driving.

 

 

IMO speed limited vehicles are dangerous not ideal

 

There are - albeit random and unexpected - when you just need that extra 2-3 mph to get you out of a tricky situation such as the motorway joiner that refuses to match his speed (and observation) to lane 1 and you've got a LGV up your backside through no fault of your own. i.e. a 56mph limited vehicle when the actual legal limit for it was 60 mph. (the Europeans have got a lot to answer for). Likewise, joining a motorway, thinking that you've got 60mph to play with and the limiter kicks in on the entry slip just as you're getting ahead of the LGV doing anywhere between 55 and 60-ish.

 

Back to autonomous driving.

I've just been a passenger for the first time today in a vehicle equipped with lane following systems.

 

The usual routine within the UK is not to signal when returning back to lane 2 after overtaking in lane 3 ( or 2 to 1 etc) . Unless you gave a left signal to disable the system, the lane following system would naturally try to steer it back into lane 3 meaning that the driver had to apply a bit more pressure to the steering to make the car go back to lane 2, resulting in an uncomfortable little shuffle - and no doubt disconcerting to following drivers.

 

Autonomous vehicles are all well and good but - IMO - will only be useful when every vehicle has it fitted. And I'm pretty certain that isn't going to happen in my lifetime.

 

Cheers,

Mick

[jcm@gwr]

 As a driver you are supposed to know those and ignorance in law is no excuse. 

 

I'm sure there was a case recently, where the lawyer argued quite well against this.

 

Considering that the judge was constantly referring to his law-book, it was reasoned

that, if a judge had to do that (bearing in mind, it's his full-timed job to know the law),

how was it possible for a layman to keep up with, or be aware of, all of the updates,

subtle variations and changes to the law.  

Notwithstanding the immense cost of said law books to even try to, therefore, I think

you will find, it is not the absolute that it used to be, and more leeway is given now.

 

Obviously not in basic speed limit cases, but knowing the distance between lampposts,

and being able to measure them*, just to know when it changes from 30mph to 40mph,

without obvious signage.

*any measurements you produce in court in your defence can be dismissed, if you

do not have the necessary qualifications to measure!

[kevinlms]

Not really , there's some numpties that should pay attention, which is pretty much like every other country I've visited.

 

As for several maximum speeds on one sign, that's a recipe for confusion. The NSL sign has worked for a long time, those that don't understand it shouldn't be on the road.

 

Quote ME where I suggested any such thing. That concept is rubbish and introduced into this conversation by others.

[DCB]

I am just glad so many drivers habitually drive 40% faster than the speed limit, they are HGV Drivers limited to 40 mph on single carriageways (except part of the A9 in Scotland which is 50mph) As there are few things more likely to cause crashes than someone in a 2015 2 tonne 1.3 litre petrol turbo trying to overtake an artic on an A road.

[royaloak]

I am just glad so many drivers habitually drive 40% faster than the speed limit, they are HGV Drivers limited to 40 mph on single carriageways (except part of the A9 in Scotland which is 50mph) As there are few things more likely to cause crashes than someone in a 2015 2 tonne 1.3 litre petrol turbo trying to overtake an artic on an A road.

I thought they had increased the limit for HGVs on single carriageways to 50 a few years ago?

[Baby Deltic]

I think a lot of companies still use 40mph on HGV's to save diesel.

[Titan]

I am just glad so many drivers habitually drive 40% faster than the speed limit, they are HGV Drivers limited to 40 mph on single carriageways (except part of the A9 in Scotland which is 50mph) As there are few things more likely to cause crashes than someone in a 2015 2 tonne 1.3 litre petrol turbo trying to overtake an artic on an A road.

 

Yet another person unaware of speed limits...

[Enterprisingwestern]

Only 65 in a Transit - loaded or otherwise - he must be seriously overloaded..........

 

Cheers,

Mick

 

Probably stuck in second gear!

 

I'm sure there was a case recently, where the lawyer argued quite well against this.

 

Considering that the judge was constantly referring to his law-book, it was reasoned

that, if a judge had to do that (bearing in mind, it's his full-timed job to know the law),

how was it possible for a layman to keep up with, or be aware of, all of the updates,

subtle variations and changes to the law.  

Notwithstanding the immense cost of said law books to even try to, therefore, I think

you will find, it is not the absolute that it used to be, and more leeway is given now.

 

Obviously not in basic speed limit cases, but knowing the distance between lampposts,

and being able to measure them*, just to know when it changes from 30mph to 40mph,

without obvious signage.

*any measurements you produce in court in your defence can be dismissed, if you

do not have the necessary qualifications to measure!

 

It is not a judges job to know every nuance of every law from memory, but to know where to find the information and be suitably advised for him to be able to make a judgment.

 

Mike.

Edited February 15, 2018 by Enterprisingwestern

[coachmann]

One thing I find very irritating; sad even, are the "won't drive backwards women".  This happen regularly in our local Tesco's car park where I drive down a lane and am just about to reverse into a slot when a woman drives through a double slot from an adjacent lane and parks where I was just about to park. I have watched them driving around looking for double parking slots just so they can drive through to park facing forward.

 

On the other hand, if someone flashes or beckons me out of a side road at an busy junction, it is as likely to be a young woman driver as a lorry driver, so they do have some heart-warming features!

[Coryton]

It is not a judges job to know every nuance of every law from memory, but to know where to find the information and be suitably advised for him to be able to make a judgment.

 

 

Perhaps - but I think the point was that if ignorance of the law is no excuse, it's everyone's job (including that judge out of the courtroom) to understand every nuance of every law in order to make sure they don't commit a crime.

 

Given that we still have common law, that means knowing not only all current legislation but also - in principle - court rulings setting precedents going back to the late 12th Century...

[chriswright03]

Absolute rubbish! Any driver of a vehicle that is restricted to a lower speed limit, would know that a sign labelled 60 for example actually meant 50 (or whatever).

 

As I said earlier we had a similar sign years ago and got rid of them and replaced them with a sign with numbers on.

 

But obviously I'm wasting everyone's time here, since you're so convinced, that HGV drivers wouldn't understand. Yet you have a huge problem with international truck drivers, who already don't know the British road rules.

Your logic baffles me.  First of all you are saying there is confusion so it needs signs with numbers on to avoid that and now you are saying that the driver will know what the speed is for their class of vehicle if they know what the speed for the road is.  Now you seem to be saying that HGV drivers know what they are doing but it is just the others!

 

The NSL sign means 60 on a single carriageway and 70 on a dual carriageway.  It is up to the driver to know what the difference is for the type of vehicle they are driving is.  Are you suggesting we should have a picture of a van, bus or lorry on top of all of the signs?  It really isn't as difficult as you are making out.  The problem is these days 'some' people are just too lazy/stupid or whatever to find out for themselves what they can and can't do in life and speed limits is sadly one of those.

 

I don't know why you have to come out with the bit about you are wasting everyone's time either.  No it is a discussion where the majority have a different view to you so that 'could' mean that you are wrong but you seem to have removed that from the options list.

 

I'm sure there was a case recently, where the lawyer argued quite well against this.

 

Considering that the judge was constantly referring to his law-book, it was reasoned

that, if a judge had to do that (bearing in mind, it's his full-timed job to know the law),

how was it possible for a layman to keep up with, or be aware of, all of the updates,

subtle variations and changes to the law.  

Notwithstanding the immense cost of said law books to even try to, therefore, I think

you will find, it is not the absolute that it used to be, and more leeway is given now.

 

Obviously not in basic speed limit cases, but knowing the distance between lampposts,

and being able to measure them*, just to know when it changes from 30mph to 40mph,

without obvious signage.

*any measurements you produce in court in your defence can be dismissed, if you

do not have the necessary qualifications to measure!

Well if you are sure then that is OK then!  We wont even bother checking up to see if you are right and when we get stopped we can quote you and it will be OK. 

 

Mike has answered the point about the Judge knowing where to find the answer regarding laws but as a driver I will repeat you have a legal obligation to be aware of the law in respect of driving.

 

If the road is restricted due to having lighting it will have a speed limit sign on leaving by law.  You do not have to measure the distance of anything let alone be qualified to do so.

[kevinlms]

 

 

The NSL sign means 60 on a single carriageway and 70 on a dual carriageway.  It is up to the driver to know what the difference is for the type of vehicle they are driving is.  Are you suggesting we should have a picture of a van, bus or lorry on top of all of the signs?  It really isn't as difficult as you are making out.  The problem is these days 'some' people are just too lazy/stupid or whatever to find out for themselves what they can and can't do in life and speed limits is sadly one of those.

 

I don't know why you have to come out with the bit about you are wasting everyone's time either.  No it is a discussion where the majority have a different view to you so that 'could' mean that you are wrong but you seem to have removed that from the options list.

 

 

I suggested no such thing as multiple speed limit signs, for different classes of vehicle - see post 4803. You're taking someone else's words & accusing me of a silly idea.

 

Edit to add.

 

It was TheQ in post 4786, who brought the concept into the conversation, so not me!

Edited February 15, 2018 by kevinlms

[TheQ]

No! I didn't suggest multi speed limit signs, I said if you did away with the National speed limit sign, with a sign to show the limit, due to 3 different limits you'd need three different signs. In no way was I suggesting such a scheme should be used. There is enough stupid road side furniture out there, without more poles and signs to try and see around.....

[chris p bacon]

I suggested no such thing as multiple speed limit signs, for different classes of vehicle - see post 4803. You're taking someone else's words & accusing me of a silly idea.

 

Edit to add.

 

It was TheQ in post 4786, who brought the concept into the conversation, so not me!

 

I can see where this confusion comes from.

 

But you are agreeing with me! If drivers ought to know what the sign means to their class of vehicle, then it may as well have a number on it, for those that don't!

 

I took that as a suggestion.

 

that would mean some sig

 

 

That would mean signs needing 3 numbers on them and needing to know which of the three was yours..

 

 

Absolute rubbish! Any driver of a vehicle that is restricted to a lower speed limit, would know that a sign labelled 60 for example actually meant 50 (or whatever).

 

As I said earlier we had a similar sign years ago and got rid of them and replaced them with a sign with numbers on.

 

But obviously I'm wasting everyone's time here, since you're so convinced, that HGV drivers wouldn't understand. Yet you have a huge problem with international truck drivers, who already don't know the British road rules.

 

 

Again, is this a suggestion that it is a better alternative.

Edited February 15, 2018 by chris p bacon

[PhilJ W]

They have speed limit signs in France showing two different speeds. IIRC the lower figure is for night-time/bad weather.

[chriswright03]

Excuse my ignorance, but what is the point of a 'National Speed Limit' sign?

 

Why not have a sign with the actual speed limit on it? The NSL sign obviously causes problems through ignorance, as to its meaning.

 

 

I suggested no such thing as multiple speed limit signs, for different classes of vehicle - see post 4803. You're taking someone else's words & accusing me of a silly idea.

 

Edit to add.

 

It was TheQ in post 4786, who brought the concept into the conversation, so not me!

Having looked at post 4803 I cannot see what you are referring to as it is neither a post by you nor is three different signs mentioned.

 

Your initial post as quoted above asks why not have a sign with a number on it instead of the NSL.  That has been explained at length by a few including myself more than once.  The speed limit for the road where the sign is as explained before/  60 for single carriage way and 70 for dual.  Those limits change for a class of vehicle and there are basically three different speeds to cover them.  If you were to replace the sign and make it read 60 for single carriageways then 'some' would just assume that they can go at that speed because they can't be bothered to find out what the limit is for the class of vehicle they are in.

 

I didn't suggest you had said that and if you read my post the relevant bit quoted here you will see it was a question and not a suggestion.

 

http://Are you suggesting we should have a picture of a van, bus or lorry on top of all of the signs?

 

It would appear we are going round in circles now and we have enough problems with people knowing how to drive on roundabouts so at this point I shall go elsewhere and do something else more productive.

[kevinlms]

Having looked at post 4803 I cannot see what you are referring to as it is neither a post by you nor is three different signs mentioned.

 

 

4803 is a post by me. Perhaps someone has deleted a post and if you reload the numbering will correct. I've just done so and its still there.

[Mad McCann]

Perhaps - but I think the point was that if ignorance of the law is no excuse, it's everyone's job (including that judge out of the courtroom) to understand every nuance of every law in order to make sure they don't commit a crime.

 

Given that we still have common law, that means knowing not only all current legislation but also - in principle - court rulings setting precedents going back to the late 12th Century...

 

 

You do realise the physical/mental impossibility of that, don't you? Even Judge Dredd had his books to refer to... ;-)

 

D4.

[royaloak]

One thing I find very irritating; sad even, are the "won't drive backwards women".  This happen regularly in our local Tesco's car park where I drive down a lane and am just about to reverse into a slot when a woman drives through a double slot from an adjacent lane and parks where I was just about to park. I have watched them driving around looking for double parking slots just so they can drive through to park facing forward.

 

On the other hand, if someone flashes or beckons me out of a side road at an busy junction, it is as likely to be a young woman driver as a lorry driver, so they do have some heart-warming features!

It isnt just women that wont/cant reverse!

 

I was out the back lane washing the other halfs car and a young lad drove all the way down and stopped about 10ft from the car and just sat there, I asked what was up and he told me to get out the way, I went back to washing the car very slowly.

When I had finished I told him to reverse into the turning circle wide bit/passing place, the look of horror on his face when I told him I wasnt reversing 200 yards when he only had to reverse 10, what followed was bloody hilarious, I was literal leaning on the front of our car with tears rolling down my face, he didnt have a clue how to reverse.

Edited February 15, 2018 by royaloak

[chriswright03]

Quote ME where I suggested any such thing. That concept is rubbish and introduced into this conversation by others.

 

This is the post I assume you mean Kevin.  I have reloaded the forum and 4803 still comes up as the other one but for some weird reason when you got to copy the one above it is 4803.  So let's hope that is sorted at last.   However, not sure what others have quoted you as saying but I certainly have not said that you have suggested anything.  I have asked you if you are suggesting we change the signs.

4803 is a post by me. Perhaps someone has deleted a post and if you reload the numbering will correct. I've just done so and its still there.

To be fair I think we have reached a point where we will have to agree to disagree as to the validity of the signs.

[Reorte]

There are no single carriageway 70 mph roads as the NSL for single carriageway is 60mph (or less if your vehicle  is subject to a further restriction).

Being pedantic there are, but they're motorways, and therefore come under different rules. The only one I know of now is a short spur of the A601(M), which isn't even long enough to reach 70 mph with any sort of sensible driving, but until a few years ago (just looked that up, 2006, another scary "time flies" example there!) there was also the single carriageway A6144(M) at 1.2 miles long. It's a 50 mph non-motorway A road now.

[Nick C]

We all know what a dual carriageway is (I hope). 

 

It's quite shocking just how many people don't know what a dual carriageway is - a lot of people seem to think it's a road with two lanes in each direction... Particularly there seem to be a lot of people who don't realise that a road with one lane on each carriageway, and a central reservation, is still a dual carriageway...

[MJI]

IMO speed limited vehicles are dangerous not ideal

 

The usual routine within the UK is not to signal when returning back to lane 2 after overtaking in lane 3 ( or 2 to 1 etc) . Unless you gave a left signal to disable the system, the lane following system would naturally try to steer it back into lane 3 meaning that the driver had to apply a bit more pressure to the steering to make the car go back to lane 2, resulting in an uncomfortable little shuffle - and no doubt disconcerting to following drivers.

 

Autonomous vehicles are all well and good but - IMO - will only be useful when every vehicle has it fitted. And I'm pretty certain that isn't going to happen in my lifetime.

 

Cheers,

Mick

 

Does it change lane when you signal?

 

If it does it is working fine.

 

Highway code 133.

 

If the usual routine is to not signal they are doing it wrong.

 

[Happy Hippo]

 

 

'The usual routine within the UK is not to signal when returning back to lane 2 after overtaking in lane 3 ( or 2 to 1 etc) '

 

Got to disagree with you there Mick!

 

Although it seems to be the norm, it is actually incorrect and changes of lane on multi carriageway roads should be signalled as it is a change of lane.

 

You signal out and you signal in. Highway Code 133. (As an ex ADI, you will have heard of John Sheridan, who gave me a minor fault for this 'offence' on my ADI Part II)

 

However, when overtaking on a single carriageway road, one signals to cross over onto the opposite side of the road, but there is no requirement to signal that you are moving back onto the safe side of the carriageway as this is expected.....That is the suggested method according to 'Roadcraft' aka The Police Driving Manual.

 

[Coryton]

Does it change lane when you signal?

 

If it does it is working fine.

 

Highway code 133.

 

If the usual routine is to not signal they are doing it wrong.

 

 

Whether one should or shouldn't indicate when moving back into lane, it's not likely to do much harm and it would presumably be quite easy to get used to doing it in order for the car to behave itself.

 

That aside, a fully autonomous car is a very different beast and I don't see what this has to do with whether autonomous and manually driven vehicles can mix well or not.

 

I think the big problem is not how human drivers will cope with autonomous cars, it's the other way round.

 

The irony is that the time may come when we ban human driven cars, at which point autonomous cars will have a much easier job - but I doubt we could ever get to that point without getting them to mix with manual traffic.

 

And then we can argue over whether it's right that historic cars (and buses) can only be driven on private land because they can't be converted to self-driving operation.

 

(On the other hand, by the time we have the technology for all cares to be self driven, we might have found out a way to fit ETCS to a steam locomotive...)