Homage to Bredon - 7 x 4 OO gauge

[Andrew D]

Various dabblings and building a few layouts (both real and imagined) have, over the past few years, allowed me to pinpoint exactly what kind of layout I would like - and what is realistically achievable. I chuckle now at my grand plans for a loft layout four years ago when it’s taken me two years to build a simple Boxfile Layout. 
 

In a nutshell, I like to do a bit of shunting but also the simple pleasure of watching trains go by. I want to enjoy my old 1980s Hornby trains. I strive for an impression of realism rather than a true prototypical appearance (it’s WAY cheaper!) but smooth and reliable running is hugely important.

 

I am indebted to @PMP who kindly told me about Bredon in a thread a couple of years ago here on RMWeb.

 

A Homage to Bredon is exactly what I was after. It is three layouts in one compact space:

 

• roundy-roundy to watch trains go by 
• branch line terminus
• Inglenook shunting puzzle (ish) 

 

I took the original track plan and not the ‘new’ one, mainly as I do not want Setrack Curved points with their huge gaps (smooth running is paramount).

 

I have also changed all the turnouts to Streamline short radius electrofrog for the smooth slow running. My experience of Setrack points once they are ballasted and weathered has not been positive. 
 

The baseboard arrived just before I had to leave home for a few weeks to work but I had the time for a quick play, and here’s the rough track plan I am considering: 

 

 

There are a few more differences between ‘Berdon Road’ and Bredon. The Mainline on mine is radius 3, not radius 2 as Bredon, so the branch line is radius 2 not radius 1. 

I’ve also ditched the second loop in the station area, and moved the spur siding to the right side where it’s nearer the yard. In the fiddle yard at the back I’ve changed the crossover to allow for a loop, meaning I can alternate two short trains on the mainline and the branch line train can be stored/hidden in the tunnel covering most of the curve on the right hand side. 
 

Where the coaches are is the branch line terminus at the island platform. 
 

Track will be code 100: Setrack curves, streamline electrofrog points, and flexible track elsewhere. 
 

I think to use streamline curved points at the end of the R3 curves to spur off to the front loop would look a bit odd. Setrack curved points are a hard ‘no’. 
 

I’m not sure about the use of the one curved point at the entrance to the yard. I’ve rejigged the plan to use all matching points, which will probably be more aesthetically pleasing. One of Bredon’s attractions is the attractive track arrangement here, just before the tunnel mouth. 

 

 

 

 

The board splits in two as you can see for when I need to use the spare room for guests, so aligning the siding tracks at this point will be a challenge. 
 

I’m also considering a second platform at the very front of the layout to serve the passing loop, but wondering if this will make the layout look too cluttered. 

 

So that is where we are right now. Thanks for reading, and any feedback is welcome. 
 

Cheers, 

 

Andrew 

 

Edited March 26, 2023 by Andrew D

[Flying Pig]

I'm not a huge fan of Bredon, which I find a bit odd in several respects, but your interpretation of it makes a lot more sense to me.  I hadn't considered the double track leaving the station as two separate routes running in parallel, so that clears up one point of confusion.  Leaving out the second loop improves things too, as I could never understand what operational purpose it served.

 

I do think you may need to do a bit of wrangling to get enough room for the platform as it looks a bit narrow at the moment.

 

Looking forward to seeing this develop.

 

[PMP]

@Andrew D thank you for the nod 🙂

 

Curved points can really help with the flow and I do follow your logic with not wanting Setrack types.

Have you tried the main streamline Cd100 types yet? 

https://peco-uk.com/products/curved-turnout-large-radius-left-hand3
you might be able to fit some of these in in particular above and opposite it in the fiddle yard. In my experience they are reliable and work very well. Obviously with the 8x4 the geometry is challenging but a section of flexible track could be cut to make appropriate join sections. Just a thought and it will potentially give a nice flow whilst retaining the important characteristics of the plan.

The template is on the above link, and a good tryout would be available on https://www.anyrail.com/en/download where you can pick and mix components to try them out

[Teabag]

Bredon was the inspiration for my layout - especially the formation leading into the tunnel.  I imagine the two lines to be a main and branch and that the passing loop would have originally severed another platform..  Curved points definitely help the look and flow - though I have a bit more space to play with.

 

Teabag

[Andrew D]

58 minutes ago, Teabag said:

Bredon was the inspiration for my layout - especially the formation leading into the tunnel.  I imagine the two lines to be a main and branch and that the passing loop would have originally severed another platform..  Curved points definitely help the look and flow - though I have a bit more space to play with.

 

Teabag

 

 

Thanks Teabag. Are those Peco Streamline curved points? They do look good. 

[Andrew D]

11 hours ago, PMP said:

@Andrew D thank you for the nod 🙂

 

Curved points can really help with the flow and I do follow your logic with not wanting Setrack types.

 

Have you tried the main streamline Cd100 types yet? 

https://peco-uk.com/products/curved-turnout-large-radius-left-hand3
you might be able to fit some of these in in particular above and opposite it in the fiddle yard. In my experience they are reliable and work very well. Obviously with the 8x4 the geometry is challenging but a section of flexible track could be cut to make appropriate join sections. Just a thought and it will potentially give a nice flow whilst retaining the important characteristics of the plan.

The template is on the above link, and a good tryout would be available on https://www.anyrail.com/en/download where you can pick and mix components to try them out

 

Cheers @PMP. I can't run Anyrail as I'm an Apple 'Merchant Banker'. Good to know you've had no issues with the Streamline curved points.  I think I may have to invest in one set of curved points and just see how it is in real life. It it's terrible and I sell them on, I've lost a tenner... 

[Teabag]

10 hours ago, Andrew D said:

 

Thanks Teabag. Are those Peco Streamline curved points? They do look good. 

Yes, code 75 streamline.  A small amount of transition curve really helps the look with any curved points.  Even settrack curved points can look slightly better on a small layout if an ST238 curve is inserted as a transition before the point.

[Andrew D]

Cheers @Teabag  The transition curves on your layout are - to quote a young person - a ‘game-changer’. When I’m home mid-April I’ll be having another play with the templates etc

[Harlequin]

Here's an 8ft by 4ft plan that uses Streamline turnouts throughout:

 

The curved turnouts are shown as green and they are essential to make the design work.

 

[Andrew D]

@Harlequin Very interesting and useful, thanks Phil! 

[PMP]

On 26/03/2023 at 21:25, Andrew D said:

 

Cheers @PMP. I can't run Anyrail as I'm an Apple 'Merchant Banker'. Good to know you've had no issues with the Streamline curved points.  I think I may have to invest in one set of curved points and just see how it is in real life. It it's terrible and I sell them on, I've lost a tenner... 

I have similar fruit based issues, but we have one coal burner that is useful for MS only products. One thing that often catches people out is the clearances required for stock at the ends of run round loops. With your coaches illustrated it looks like the loop at the top of your image may be too tight to allow running round with sufficient clearance. Another space saver that can give you a bit of extra flexibility are Y points which may be worth investigating. The peco download templates can be printed real size so you won’t need to buy to try.

I’d also remove point ‘A’ and just have two sidings rather than three.  With the point in place it will give you very short sidings, with ‘A’ removed you get more length each siding, a practical case of less is more, and it’ll look better too.

 

Edited March 31, 2023 by PMP
Addition

[Keith Addenbrooke]

Hi there.  A key question in my mind which I can’t see covered above (apologies if I’ve missed it) is how long are the trains you want to run?  When I was looking at a GW design for an 8’ x 4’ the ruling train length I wanted was three coaches plus a small tender loco (40”).  The plans @Harlequin and I came up with could manage that - although it was (inevitably) a tight fit.

 

If you want two coaches and a tank engine (as pictured) then you save a lot of space on loops and increase your options.  Just a thought, Keith.

[Andrew D]

@Keith Addenbrooke Hi Keith, I’m hoping to run 3 coaches plus small tender loco/small bo-bo diesel on the main line and 2 coaches plus tank loco on the branch. However, I know I won’t get three coaches in the platform and still be able to use the loop, so I think it might be curved points plus transition curves as suggested, which will probably take up that spare space at the front of the layout. Cheers. 

[Andrew D]

GAME CHANGER ALERT! 
 

While browsing the Hattons website I came across this entry: 

 

https://www.hattons.co.uk/522046/peco_products_sl_u77_left_hand_curved_small_radius_turnout_unifrog/stockdetail

 

SMALL RADIUS curved streamline points - and at 505mm outer radius that is just perfect. 
 

There’s no release date though. Does anyone have any idea when these might be brought to market? This really does change everything. 

 

[ejstubbs]

Hmm.  437mm and 505mm are Setrack radii (R2 and R3).  To me the photo looks very like a unifrog version of the Setrack curved turnout, including the straight part at the beginning of the 'outer' route through the turnout.  I wonder whether Hattons have got the part number slightly wrong, and it should be ST rather than SL?  The quoted angle is one more usually associated with Setrack, too, although in this case it looks to me like a misinterpretation/misrepresentation of the fact that the outer route curves through 22.5° and the inner one curves through 33.75°, like the current Setrack curved turnout - see the curved crossover in the lower right of this diagram, and note the use of the ST-227 11.25° R2 curves to get it to work:

 

 

That said, many people have reported problems with the Setrack curved turnouts, so maybe re-working them as Unifrog might end up with something a bit more reliable.  But if that turnout geometry is the solution to a particular layout planning issue then you could consider using the current Setrack version to begin with, and replace it with the Unifrog version as and when it becomes available.

I have to say that the Streamline curved turnouts don't seem to me to be very useful for saving space in compact layouts: they're the same length as the Streamline long turnout - about 10", which is a lot on a 7ftx4ft baseboard where you're going to be constrained to Setrack R4 at the very maximum for the main curves.  Even the inner route on the Streamline turnout is significantly larger than that - indeed, it's noticeably larger than the radius of the normal Streamline short turnouts.

 

I did use a Setrack curved turnout in my defunct variant on the Bredon idea, though it was in the non-scenic area rather than the station throat, which was all done with normal turnouts like the original (excepting a few short Y turnouts in the yard area).  That was in 8ft x 4ft.  And to be honest, I never had any problems running trains over it.  I've probably still got a plan of it somewhere in AnyRail...ah, found something:

 

Edited April 4, 2023 by ejstubbs

[Andrew D]

That’s very interesting thanks @ejstubbs  I’ve done a bit of rabbit-holing and a lot of folks agree with your theory about Peco re-working the unreliable Setrack curved points and replacing them with this new version which, while matching the Setrack geometry, is marketed as Streamline because of the Unifrog. 

I’ve also found out that these were announced three years ago in 2020, yet there is still no sign of them appearing any time soon. So maybe I’ll do as you say and use Setrack in the short term. We’ll see when it comes to Build Time. 
 

Your track plan of Bredon is very interesting and useful, thank you. 

Edited April 4, 2023 by Andrew D

[DCB]

The biggest issue I found with the set track curved point is the large plastic frog which wheels tend to ride over,  especially when the plastic starts to wear.   I did live frog one with two pieces of rail forming the vee and it was a lot better better but I  ended up using a streamline one which I twisted down to around 19 or 20" 3rd radius which is the standard radius I work to with close coupling and re wheeled locos etc. 

Edited April 5, 2023 by DCB

[Andrew D]

A chat with the nice chap from Peco at the York Show revealed that the new Streamline Unifrog Small Curved Turnouts are indeed a ‘thing’, and yes they are exactly the same footprint as the Setrack version. 
 

I was told that they should be available by the end of 2023. 
 

It is my guess that this won’t be the last release of Peco trackwork that can span both Setrack and Streamline ranges. 
 

My dilemma now is: Do I hang fire and wait for the new releases, and build the N gauge shunting layout I have planned in the meantime, or do I press on with Berdon Road using Setrack curved points with the aim of replacing them eventually?

 

Hmmm….. 

[Andrew D]

Here we are, a new mock-up with grateful thanks to all those who offered feedback. 
 

 

 

As you can see, we have a Streamline large curved turnout bottom left suggested by @PMPand inspired by @Teabagand @Harlequin.This is about the only place I can get it and still have a half-decent length of runaround. The downside is that it brings the track perilously close to the front edge of the baseboard. The only alternative to that would be to use the new short curved streamline turnout when it becomes available, but that would then make the inside curve a little too tight I think. 
 

Top left in the fiddle yard we have a small curved turnout. I’ll start with Setrack and change to streamline Unifrog when available. This gives me a much longer runaround here to alternate the two main line trains.
 

Top right in the fiddle yard we have a new siding (inspired by @ejstubbs fiddle yard plan) which gives me a proper home for branch line trains. 
 

Down in the yard I’ve reduced the number of sidings as per @PMP ‘s suggestion as I can use the platform bay if I want to do an Inglenook Shunting Puzzle. 
 

I think the next stage is to order the track and go for it. Lightly lay it and see how I get on with the curved points etc during a rigorous extended testing regime (i.e. lots of playing). 
 

Further feedback is of course still very welcome. I’m delighted at how it’s evolving. 
 

 

 

 

[RobinofLoxley]

To be fair there is quite a bit of scope to improve the design of the highly curved turnout while leaving the turning angles and overall dimensions the same. Makers have modern spec locos to run through them which are more demanding.

[Flying Pig]

7 hours ago, Andrew D said:

The only alternative to that would be to use the new short curved streamline turnout when it becomes available, but that would then make the inside curve a little too tight I think. 

 

But it would probably allow you to extend the loop round the curve a bit more which might look better even with the tighter curves.

 

 

[Tangosp1]

Hi Andrew, I’m currently planning a similar layout and just came across this thread. The plan looks really good. Just wanted to see how you got on with it and whether the short radius Peco streamline points worked for you.

[Andrew D]

On 18/01/2024 at 21:42, Tangosp1 said:

Hi Andrew, I’m currently planning a similar layout and just came across this thread. The plan looks really good. Just wanted to see how you got on with it and whether the short radius Peco streamline points worked for you.

Hi there, since starting this thread I’ve had a major life change get in the way. This layout is still very much on the cards (with the new Streamline small radius points) but in all reality won’t even be started until Spring 2025 at the earliest. As my living arrangements are temporary at the moment I’m planning on a small and simple inglenook in the meantime.