SALEIGNES ROMAZIERS, CFD metre gauge, Charente Maritime slow layout build.

[jamie92208]

I moved to Charente Maritime just in 2018.  I knew that there had been a railway that ran past the village that closed in the 1950's.   We often used to walk and cycle along part of the old track bed.   The station is nearly a kilometre outside the village and another 2 kilometres from the other village hat it bear the name of.  The name is Saleignes Romaziers.

 

The station still exists and a friend lives opposite it.  The station is now a holiday home owned by a couple from Paris.

The tracks were on the left hand side of the building,  The layout was very simple just a passing loop on a single track line with a few trains each way each day.  

The station was on a line from St Jean D'Angely to St Saviol.  St Jean is on the Etat line from Angouleme to Niort and St Saviol is on the main Paris to Bordeaux line south of Poitiers and north of Ruffec.  

 

The line was part of the Chemin de Fer Departmentaux and this Charente Maritime network was centred at St Jean where several other lines radiated. The workshops and HQ were at St Jean.

 

I wondered about making a small model in 7mm narrow gauge of the station.  Almost a diorama that would fold up and fit in the back of the car.   I got some information about the line from talking to an old couple who had lived where our friend now lives.  Then I went to a model railway show at Chatellerault.  This was also the AGM of the Cercle du Zero and among the stalls was one manned by a metre gauge modelling association.   There was also an American logging layout but it's owner was also into metre gauge. 

 

Things started to come together and it turned out that the association has produced a kit for one of the type of tank engines that worked the line.   Talking to the guy with the logging layout it appeared that he had some long out of production kits for items of rolling stock used on the line.

 

Then some friends gave me a book about another part of the local metre gauge network, for my birthday.  I also got some books about the railways in the area from the estate of a another friend.   This gave me the impetus to make a start.  

 

The domestic authorities agreed to me buying a wagon kit for Christmas so I've now made a start on it.   It was sold by a company called Loco Diffusion and is a mixture of etched brass, brass turnings and castings, along with wooden planks.   These will make up into a flat wagon.

 

Over the past two days I have made a start and things have gone together will even though they are a bit fiddly.   Certainly smaller than my usual 0 Gauge stock.

 

This is the progress to date.  This is the underframe with the wheels temporarily in place.   I suspect that the underframe is common to the kits for all the goods vehicles.

The instructions are obviously in French and my vocabulary is increasing each day.

Progress will not be swift for a variety of reasons.

 

A)   I have much work still to do on Lancaster Green Ayre and the stock for that.

 

B)  These kits are not cheap.

 

C)   I don't want a divorce just yet.

 

However as and when there is progress I will update this thread and will also post some of my rsearch.

 

Jamie

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[Dave Hunt]

Hi Jamie,

 

This looks like the start of something that will appeal greatly. Ever since I first saw Gordon Gravett's Pempoul, which I regard as one of the finest model railway layouts I've ever seen, I've had a soft spot for the French metre gauge so I'll be watching this thread with interest. The only trouble is that it could well tempt me to......... no, no, that way lies chaos!

 

Dave

[jamie92208]

A little bit more has been done.  I've even started a plan in Templot.   This photo of the station surfaced yesterday.  It'a not a vey good scan but was given to me by  Claude who was brought up in the bakers house opposite the station that another friend now lives in.

It gives me a lot of detail such as the fact that sleepers were hardly visible.   This is common to photos of a lot of the other stations.   It also gives  lot of detail of the station and the platform.  I'll probably go for copperclad sleepers with rail soldered to it.   I will measure the rail that this wagon sits on at Gourville.

There is a little museum in the old goods shed but it isn't open very often,   This wagon is similar to the one that I'm building.   A couple of sessions in the shed over the past few days have proved fruitful.   There is a lot of fiddly detail.   My fingers are too big for these narrow gauge kits.

 

 

 

The brake gear is coming along and the castings that hold the ends of the springs are attached.   Not a bad start.

 

Jamie

 

[Dave Hunt]

A few questions Jamie:

 

Are there just the two turnouts for the passing loop or are there catch points as well?

If there are just the two turnouts how are they controlled - individual hand levers, a small lever frame or are they simply spring loaded?

If there are catch points as well, is there just a ground frame or a signal box?

Do you know what the signalling arrangements were - tokens, one engine in steam etc ? 

 

Dave

[jamie92208]

I think it was telephone calls to the stationmasters with individual pouit levers and no catch points.  The normal lie of the points was for the through line.  I need to spend s lot of time studying photos.  Perhaps the glass of Scottish medecine  that I've just poured will help my studies.

 

As I said it's going to be more of a diorama than a big layout.  If I set it betweem 1932 and 1950  there will be a 4 wheeled Billard railcar as well.

 

Jamie

[Gordonwis]

7 hours ago, Dave Hunt said:

A few questions Jamie:

 

Are there just the two turnouts for the passing loop or are there catch points as well?

If there are just the two turnouts how are they controlled - individual hand levers, a small lever frame or are they simply spring loaded?

If there are catch points as well, is there just a ground frame or a signal box?

Do you know what the signalling arrangements were - tokens, one engine in steam etc ? 

 

Dave

 

 

Most rural French railways were 'Cantonnement telephonique' (simple phone calls...) - some stayed like this into the 1980s...

 

 

 

[Gordonwis]

I have a large collection of French railway timetables. The service for  Summer 1937 was as follows:

 

Eastbound:

St Jean d'Angely 07.17, S-R 08.33, St Saviol 10.11

St Jean d'Angely 17.18, S-R 18.12, St Saviol 20.10

St Jean d'Angely 20.22, S-R 21.12, Chef Boutonne 21.34

Both afternoon trains were Autorail stopping at S-R on request only

 

West bound trains called at S-R at 05.18, 08.08 and 16.49. The 16.49 was not Autorail. Only the early morning train was a request stop

[jamie92208]

3 hours ago, Gordonwis said:

I have a large collection of French railway timetables. The service for  Summer 1937 was as follows:

 

Eastbound:

St Jean d'Angely 07.17, S-R 08.33, St Saviol 10.11

St Jean d'Angely 17.18, S-R 18.12, St Saviol 20.10

St Jean d'Angely 20.22, S-R 21.12, Chef Boutonne 21.34

Both afternoon trains were Autorail stopping at S-R on request only

 

West bound trains called at S-R at 05.18, 08.08 and 16.49. The 16.49 was not Autorail. Only the early morning train was a request stop

Thanks very much Gordon.

 

Jamie

[Pacific231G]

There is an article about this line here.

http://pioussay.wifeo.com/le-train-saint-jean-dangely-saint-saviol.php#1123

 

If the station did have just two sets of points then that would likely have been a double ended goods loop rather than a passing loop .  This was the most common arrangement for such metre gauge railways with the goods shed  (Halle) attached to the station building (Batiment Voyageurs) with a loading dock (Quai) and an area for loading and unloading wagonload goods. On the systems it had the concession for, the CFD generally also had a blind siding off the loop for loading and unloading wagons (often including a weighbridge and a loading gauge) This did allow it to be used for trains to cross though obviously not while wagons were serving the goods shed. For station with a separate passing loop, this was usually on the far side of the through line from the station building and goods facilities

 

On such a line  there wouldn't have been any facing point locks  and all points would have been operated by local hand levers (often operated by swinging the weight around) with a weight to hold in in position.

 

 This is the standard design of point lever and though this one is on a standard gauge light railway (It operates the entry points for the well preserved terminus at Sabres in Landes from where visitors are taken to an open air museum) identical point levers were used on metre and even 600mm gauge railways. Facing point locks tended to only be used where passenger trains passed at speed and point levers like these were often be found at branch line stations and yards. 

 

Trap points as we know them were far less common in France than permanent derailers but. though these were used to protect passenger lines on the main line network, they were far less often used on metre gauge lines, even though the CFD's Réseau des Charentes et des Deux-Sèvres was legally a "national network" line (d'intèrêt général) ocalrather than a local "light railway" (d'intérêt local) .

 

I have the MTVS monograph on this system but, unfortunately, it has no images of  Saleignes-Romaziers station (which, according their map, was at that time in Deux-Sévres rather than Charentes Maritimes). 

According to this, the four locomotives operating this line were fairly large 2-6-0Ts (nos 72-75) built by Cail of a type the CFD also ordered for Corsica and the Vivarais. Goods wagons were standard CFD types with a wheelbase of 2.57  metres, a length over buffers of 6.36 or 6.38 m, a width of 2.3 or 2.4 metres and wheels with a diameter of 0.72m . It's worh noting that passenger coaches were mainly bogies with side (slam) doors rather than the end platform types that we tend to associate with French metre gauge railways. 

After an inital three petrol-electric  Crochat Automotrices (railcars) those that ook over from steam on many services were De Dion NCs (with a single driving end and a built in tirning plate)  and the very familiar Billard A80Ds with a driving position at either end designed in collaboration with the CFD and used on most of its network. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 2, 2023 by Pacific231G
addition of typical CFD through station diagram etc.

[Dave Hunt]

The article at the link provided by David is fascinating and has piqued my interest even more. What a lovely little railway for modelling. Have you got any details of the locomotive kit produced by the metre gauge society Jamie? I'd like to have a look at it.

 

Dave

[Happy Hippo]

8 minutes ago, Dave Hunt said:

The article at the link provided by David is fascinating and has piqued my interest even more. What a lovely little railway for modelling. Have you got any details of the locomotive kit produced by the metre gauge society Jamie? I'd like to have a look at it.

 

Dave

If you are going to embark on the rocky road to hell, you might consider stepping up a gauge and use 1.75" gauge to represent metre gauge. This would fit nicely in your garden.... But please do not go Geeeee Scale, use the correct 1:22.5 ratio and hand build the lot.

 

Jamie also has the space to do this, although he really ought to be doing it in 7.25" gauge.

 

However, in all seriousness, this is a fascinating interlude from LGA, and I'm looking forward to seeing everything progress

[polybear]

44 minutes ago, Dave Hunt said:

The article at the link provided by David is fascinating and has piqued my interest even more. What a lovely little railway for modelling. Have you got any details of the locomotive kit produced by the metre gauge society Jamie? I'd like to have a look at it.

 

Dave

 

@jamie92208 Now see what you've been and gone and done.....Bear detects Mrs. DH inbound with MASS** to Live.......you're in serious doo doo......

(**Master Armament Safety Switch)

Edited January 1, 2023 by polybear

[jamie92208]

Thanks to everyone  for the interest and information @Pacific231G that photo is very helpful.  Your info re the track plan fits in with what another source has said.  

 

@Dave Hunt, yes I do have sone details of the kit.  I'll try and post them in due course.  It's an 0-6-0  and not a Cail 0-6-2 which is what worked the line.  However it's not far off and I don't have 30 years to attempt to scratchbuild one.  I do have access to several more kits of goods stock and a couple of bogie coaches.  However  the price is high.  The flat wagon cost €120. And was the cheapest.  

 

As I've already invested in it I'm going to stick with 22mm gauge and 19.8 b to b, despite what a resident of South Hipposhire suggests..  I hope to get some more photos of the goods wagon this week or next and measure the rail.  I suspect that something like code 75 will be about right.  I've got to take the lady who lives opposite the old station to catch a train on Tuesday and will hopefully get details of the owners.

 

I do love research.

 

Jamie

Edited January 2, 2023 by jamie92208

[Pacific231G]

1 hour ago, jamie92208 said:

Thanks to everyone  for the interest and information @Pacific231G that photo is very helpful.  Your info re the track plan fits in with what another source has said.  

 

@Dave Hunt, yes I do have sone details of theckit.  I'll try andvpost them in due course.  It's an 0-6-0  and not a Cail 0-6-2 which is what worked the line.  However it's not farcoff and I don't gave 30 years to attempt to scratchbuild one.  I do have access to several more kits of goods stock and a couple of bogie coaches.  However  the price is high.  The flat wagon cost €120. And was the cheapest.  

 

As I've already invested in it I'm going to stick with 22mm gauge and 19.8 b to b, despite what a residentbof South Hipposhire suggests..  I hope to get some more photos of the goods wagon this week or next and measure the rail.  I suspect that something like code 75 will be about right.  I've got to take the lady who lives opposite thevold station to catch a train on Tuesday and will hopefully get details of the owners.

 

I do love research.

 

Jamie

According to MTVS  the track used 20kg/m vignoles (FB) rail in 8 metre panels each with ten creosoted oak sleepers. The rail was fixed to the sleepers by track screws (as normal in France) . There are umpteen photo of locos as well as diagrams  in the MTVS "magazine" published in 1980 and, according to this,  most of them were 2-6-0Ts with nos. 72-75 (Cail 1895) allocated to the St. Jean d'Angely - St. Saviot line that Salaigne-Romazieres was on. The network as a whole had a total of twenty four 2-6-0Ts but did have four 0-6-0Ts. These were allocated to a couple of shortish lines at the edges of the network and two of them were later converted to diesel locotracteurs but who is to say that they were never seen on the St. Saviot line!

 

One of the fourteen Cail 2-6-0Ts (no. 77) is noted as having escaped Gertie and is currently under restoration by Velay Express (the "other" preserved section of the Vivaras.

There is more information, in English, including works photos, of the Charentes type 2-6-0T locos on the CFD website (the company is still going strong) here

https://www.cfd.group/documents/locomotives-with-a-carrying-axle-at-the-front-type-charente

The CFD is proud of its heritage and its website includes a good archive of documents and photos. Thanks to this topic I've just rediscoverd it and it looks to be an absolute goldmine

 

Edited January 2, 2023 by Pacific231G

[Happy Hippo]

Bearing in mind what David has said about the rail weight and the fact the track is flat bottomed, before you go down to Code 75,  consider Code 100. (If you were going to use Peco fb rail it would be Code 82; 75 is supposed to be bullhead)).

 

I used to use Code 198 Bullhead for 16 mm in the garden, which was coarse scale 0 gauge and when I upped to 7/8ths scale, I assumed that the slight 'up' in rail size to Code 215 fb would be enough.  It wasn't, and I needed to go to Code 250 to get the right look.

[Winslow Boy]

1 hour ago, jamie92208 said:

Thanks to everyone  for the interest and information @Pacific231G that photo is very helpful.  Your info re the track plan fits in with what another source has said.  

 

@Dave Hunt, yes I do have sone details of theckit.  I'll try andvpost them in due course.  It's an 0-6-0  and not a Cail 0-6-2 which is what worked the line.  However it's not farcoff and I don't gave 30 years to attempt to scratchbuild one.  I do have access to several more kits of goods stock and a couple of bogie coaches.  However  the price is high.  The flat wagon cost €120. And was the cheapest.  

 

As I've already invested in it I'm going to stick with 22mm gauge and 19.8 b to b, despite what a residentbof South Hipposhire suggests..  I hope to get some more photos of the goods wagon this week or next and measure the rail.  I suspect that something like code 75 will be about right.  I've got to take the lady who lives opposite thevold station to catch a train on Tuesday and will hopefully get details of the owners.

 

I do love research.

 

Jamie

 

Just make certain you've got your certificate signed by the Mayor before you go. Don't think the gendarmerie will look to kindly on a retired rosbeef measuring up railway carriages. You may get accused of spying and deported. Oh and for gods sake don't ring Big H and ask him to vouch for you. That really would set the cat amongst the pigeons.

Edited January 1, 2023 by Winslow Boy

[Dave John]

Some very influential pics. 

 

Although I am  kinda determined to do 1/50 scale on 20mm track I am open to ideas about all sorts .

 

[Northroader]

There’s a thread running on the CFD system in the adjacent departement which might be helpful:

 

https://forum.e-train.fr/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=81408

 

And here’s a very nice film:

 

https://memoire.ciclic.fr/4664-mort-du-c-f-d-la

 

 

Edited January 3, 2023 by Northroader

[jamie92208]

11 hours ago, Happy Hippo said:

Bearing in mind what David has said about the rail weight and the fact the track is flat bottomed, before you go down to Code 75,  consider Code 100. (If you were going to use Peco fb rail it would be Code 82; 75 is supposed to be bullhead)).

 

I used to use Code 198 Bullhead for 16 mm in the garden, which was coarse scale 0 gauge and when I upped to 7/8ths scale, I assumed that the slight 'up' in rail size to Code 215 fb would be enough.  It wasn't, and I needed to go to Code 250 to get the right look.

Thanks to everyone for this mine of useful information.  I have obviously got to do a lot more reading.  I have completed my application to join the metre gauge modelling  groupp. G.E.M.M.E.  it's they who produce thecloco kit.  It would have been nice to do a Cail loco as jean Francois Cail was born and brought up 10 miles north of us at Chef Boutonne.  Therecis a bustbof him on the roundabout outside the old station. The nearby secondary school is named after him.  There is also an excellent  museum in the local chateau (JAVRAISY)  with a 7.25 " model of a Crampton.  The Cail Association published a good book about the railways at Chef Boutonne which had a mixed gauge station where the metre gaugecline from St Jean to St Saviol, crosed the standard gauge Niort to Ruffec line.

 

I suspected that there was a code of FB rail about right.  All being well I may be able the measure the rail at Gourville soon.

 

Jamie

[Dave Hunt]

Jamie,

 

Just a few thoughts. Having looked at all the information that has come in so far and given that Slaters make 19.8mm b-b/22mm gauge axles, it would seem that 1:43.5/7mm:ft scale would, IMHO, be favourite. That is providing the wagon kit you have got is to that scale; if not then obviously whatever it turns out to be will govern what actually happens. As far as track is concerned, whilst appreciating what HH says, looking at the photographs suggests to me that the ballast, undergrowth etc. meant that the depth of the rails was quite inconspicuous so Peco code 82 FB would probably look about right?

 

That 0-6-2T looks lovely.

 

Dave 

[Dave John]

Would a Code 82 FB rail be close to correct size ? 

 

 

https://www.clfinescale.co.uk/online-store/CODE-82-FLAT-BOTTOM-RAIL-HiNi-Nickle-Silver-Rail-10-X-1-M-p128178198

[ianp]

On 02/01/2023 at 09:39, Northroader said:

There’s a thread running on the CFD system in the adjacent departement which might be helpful:

 

https://forum.e-train.fr/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=81408

 

And here’s a very nice film:

 

https://memoire.ciclic.fr/4664-mort-du-c-f-d-la

 

 

 

That B&W film from 1949 about the closure of the CFD is tremendous.

[Dave Hunt]

53 minutes ago, ianp said:

 

That B&W film from 1949 about the closure of the CFD is tremendous.

 

Ain't it just! If I wasn't a fan of the CFD before I am now. It was just made to be modelled wasn't it?

 

Dave

[ianp]

1 hour ago, Dave Hunt said:

 

Ain't it just! If I wasn't a fan of the CFD before I am now. It was just made to be modelled wasn't it?

 

Dave

 Indeed. Those stations, roads, fields etc are exactly what I aspire to in a layout. Thankfully we can now have some appropriate rolling stock in the form of the REE model of the Billard railcar: https://www.ree-modeles.com/catalogue/catalogue-hom/materiel-moteur/720-autorail-billard-serie-2 and seen here: 

 

and also here:  

 

Edited January 3, 2023 by ianp

[jamie92208]

Wouldn't that Billard look lovely in 7mm.  I took our friend to Niort this morning and she is going to put me in touch with the owners of the station. Apparently  it has a floor area of 58 sq.m.  that would make it approx 10m byn6m which looks about right.  They are planni g to repaint the exterior and pick out the station name in black.  Little bits of progress.  On my way homevI called at anotherv,ocation on a standard gauge stub that carries trainloads of wine and the run round loop isccontrolled by point levers identical to the one mentioned above.  I will hopefully get chance to photograph it on Friday.

 

Jamie