GERDecapod Posted May 28, 2022 Share Posted May 28, 2022 (edited) Hello, I'd like to ask a question that I've had in the back of my mind for quite a long time, which is end is the front end of the Y1 & Y3 sentinel shunters or any typical Sentinel industrial shunter? Most photographs I see depict them water filler cap first, but I have also noticed their funnels are at the back if this is the case. Best regards Steven Edited May 28, 2022 by GERDecapod Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wickham Green too Posted May 28, 2022 Share Posted May 28, 2022 The end with the class and allocation painted on the bufferbeam is the front. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium t-b-g Posted May 29, 2022 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 29, 2022 In BR days, they had a "smokebox" number plate on the cab end between the windows, so that was presumably regarded as the front for such things. Like more conventional tank locos, the "bunker" was at the back. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wickham Green too Posted May 29, 2022 Share Posted May 29, 2022 Ah - but those Sentinels with a more normal outline DID have a bunker at the back = the other end ! ....... and the LMS locos seem to have adhered to a cab-at-rear convention. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted May 29, 2022 Share Posted May 29, 2022 The cab is the rear end. Even on the double cabbed version. Look at where the number is. https://www.lner.info/locos/Y/y10.php Most conventional Sentinels had the bunker in the middle left hand side with the water tank on the left. The front end comprised the cylinders and gearbox. They really didn't need a lot of coal. http://www.douglas-self.com/MUSEUM/LOCOLOCO/sentinel/sentinel.htm Jason Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GERDecapod Posted May 29, 2022 Author Share Posted May 29, 2022 So for Y1 & Y3 Sentinels the cab was the front and the bunker was the back? I noticed in diagram that both the Y1 and Y3 had the their boilers facing to the end without the bunker and the two windows facing forward, would that mean that is the front? I have also noticed that in their other more conventional designs they have always pointed the boiler towards the front. So in conclusion the front end of the Y1 & Y3 sentinels is the end with without the bunker and the back end is the end with the bunker? Am I correct? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wickham Green too Posted May 29, 2022 Share Posted May 29, 2022 Er ...... the boiler is vertical and is IN the cab : it's the steamy thing sticking out of the roof of 'Ranald' above. The weight of this is counterbalanced by the cylinders and gearbox : the cylinder cover is the red 'biscuit tin' at the far end of the loco. The vast majority of Sentinel locos were laid out in a similar fashion though casings over the various components varied considerably. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GERDecapod Posted May 29, 2022 Author Share Posted May 29, 2022 Yes I understand, and I apologize if my way of elaborating was confusing. But the boiler is pointing toward the forward position on the Y1 & Y3 Sentinels, what I mean by this is they point funnel first. The main difference that I notice with the Y1 & Y3 sentinels and any others of that same design is that they differ in where they put the cylinders and driving gear compared with other sentinel designs. On the Y1 & Y3 they put the cylinders towards the center of the engine or at the rear of the drivers position. Unlike their prewar and postwar industrial counterparts where instead they put the cylinders at the very front of the engines. Thats why I'm confused on which end of Y1 & Y3 Sentinels is the front end, because their layouts differ from other Sentinel designs. I've submitted two photos below to try and illustrate what I'm trying to say, the red arrows are for which way the boiler is pointing, and the green is for the cylinder position. So is it correct in saying that the front end of the Y1 & Y3 Sentinels is chimney/funnel first? I'd like to apologize again if my way of explaining is confusing. Best Regards Steven Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted May 29, 2022 Share Posted May 29, 2022 No. Cab is the rear on all steam locomotives apart from "cab forwards". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cab_forward Where the coal and water is stored is irrelevant as many small tank engines had the bunkers in the front of the cab. Look at a Caley Pug. Take for example the multitude of diesel shunters and the cab is officially at the back. They can work equally well going either way so it's not an issue. Jason Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GERDecapod Posted May 29, 2022 Author Share Posted May 29, 2022 Yes, I understand but the pre war Sentinel pictured on the bottom has what you may call the conventional layout of steam locomotive. But the Y3 Sentinel pictured above has a layout more akin to a cab forward as you can see the boiler is pointing funnel forwards towards the front the cab end. You can also notice in the diagram above that the Sentinels controls and the like are all pointing towards the funnel end of the engine the cab end, I've also observed that their class and allocation is always painted on the cab end many thanks to t-b-g for pointing that out. Are there any official company records that list with side of the engine is the front end? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium t-b-g Posted May 29, 2022 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 29, 2022 I wonder if, somewhere in the cab, there is a selector for "forward" or "reverse" gears. That would put it to rest. Has anybody access to the cab of a preserved one to check? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wickham Green too Posted May 30, 2022 Share Posted May 30, 2022 I guess if you asked the driver of a Y1 or Y3 which end was the front, he'd cogitate for half a millisecond and reply " Dunno mate - never thought about it ...... does it matter ?". The other thing to consider is the orientation on official weight diagrams etc. : your lower drawing looks very much like the diagram of 7184 shown in Rowledge's "Engines of the LMS" ( OPC 1975 ) facing to the left like every other loco in the book except - arguably - 7180-3 and 7192 which, like your first drawing, have the chimney to the right. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium John Isherwood Posted May 30, 2022 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 30, 2022 31 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said: ..... does it matter ? No!!! CJI. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium t-b-g Posted May 30, 2022 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 30, 2022 Very little of what we do in this hobby actually matters. I can see that it is a question worth asking when it comes to either wiring a motor up or fitting a DCC chip. It is just a case of which way it should go when you turn the power up. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GERDecapod Posted May 30, 2022 Author Share Posted May 30, 2022 I was able to find an pdf document about Sentinel and their patent engines, it seems to confirm that the front end of the sentinels is the cab end. I've submitted a few of the pictures I took. Thank you for the help everyone. Best regards Steven Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wickham Green too Posted May 30, 2022 Share Posted May 30, 2022 1 hour ago, GERDecapod said: Now, the diagram several posts up shows the reversing quadrant mounted across the vehicle - so this would imply that the forward end of the loco is to the left and the reverse end is to the right !!?! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GERDecapod Posted May 30, 2022 Author Share Posted May 30, 2022 (edited) Never noticed that, thank you for pointing that's out. Here's another picture of the controls, I believe it's of their steam railcar/railmotor type. But I think it is the same in terms of layout compared to their industrial shunters. I also forgot to add that is at the rear of the railcar/railmotor. Edited May 30, 2022 by GERDecapod Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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