Ingleford Wharf: 1870s canalside inglenook on the "M&WJR" in 00, and Victoria Quay: a 1900s WIP in 0

[Schooner]

On 28/04/2023 at 09:09, Mr Cervus said:

Less aware of it being the 'inglenook' design than of its general feel.

Oh, I'm so glad! The major 'problem' with the inglenook ratio is that the aesthetics of 5:3:3 sidings are so well-known that they leap out and we tend to stop really looking after that "Aha! An inglenook!" moment. To disguise this is part of the genius of @Harlequin's plan, and a concerted effort with the scenics.

 

Over the past year or two of looking at the scheme in different settings I've come to find it works best as originally conceived - two stub sidings off a running line - both aesthetically and operationally. This is why the 0 plan has always taken this format

even though it means stretching credulity at least as much as Ingleford!

 

On 28/04/2023 at 09:09, Mr Cervus said:

here was my own attempt:

Bravo! Dammit, that's definitely the gauntlet thrown down! I have a sheet of black paper set aside for the job, but I'm using all available round tuits at the moment. Thanks for the inspiration :) @magmouse was deemed to be cheating by working too close to 12":1'!

 

1 hour ago, magmouse said:

That colour looks great! I don't think you should go too much darker.

Not to worry - the brown pigment is really rather light (I was using the green for darkening, so it's just a case of great saturation of the same tone. Colour:

vs. clarity

(immediately after the second pour, bubbles removed with heatgun).

 

2 hours ago, magmouse said:

Any glyph from an available digital font will almost certainly be too nuanced.

Sorry, not getting that. Nuanced how? FWIW the version I get looking at RMWeb on my phone is closer to the style of glyph I had in mind than I see on a computer. Screenie in the next post to demonstrate.

 

Although I see that might be rendered moot as @railtec-models (who I decided not to tag last night after some consideration!) has entered the chat, and proves to be an absolute star once again. I'll finish this post to buy myself some thinking time, then follow up here for feedback and we can go from there? Enjoy your brew Steve!

 

2 hours ago, magmouse said:

When you say 'script', do you mean italic, lower-case cursive writing? I am not sure I have every seen that for running numbers

I did - as per tare weights on red GWR stock :) Not seen it either, but I'm still flying a bit blind here as useful prototype images are scarce and helpful model images, eg

I've learned as 'LB&SCR Practice', rightly or wrongly, and so don't want to copy too closely. Without knowing enough to come up with something plausible I've had to lean on logic (uh oh...)

 

As the M&WJR has grown slightly over the course of our research to date (bullseye indeed!), I think it is more likely that wagons need to be numbered than in the original iteration of the scheme. I still want to give the impression that this is a small independent line though, and thought maybe the small cursive numerals would give that impression...and of course such numbers are widely available as transfers! 

 

Improvements/alternatives most welcome from any corner!

 

56 minutes ago, WFPettigrew said:

Of all the web of lines centred on Cirencester, surely the opening of the line south of Swindon to Salisbury would be the one to trigger a name change?

 

That is the only part of the network that is both not in the general catchments of the Thames or Severn - and the southern extension is the only part of the network that would count as being in Wessex and therefore prompt the new title?

Perfectly in line with my thinking, thank you! So I think with this early stock we're still looking at T&S liveries of the 1850s for the most part, repainted between 5-10 years ago; but by the time of Ingleford (c.1875 to cover the locomotives) we're already in the realm of the MW&JR. Good to know, not least for loco liveries and associated transfer designs...!

 

1 hour ago, WFPettigrew said:

 

So if you want documentary evidence, try the House of Lords or the archives of the Salisbury Journal?!

Ideal, will do!

[Schooner]

So, horseshoe totems:

 

I was thinking either a 'standard' glyph, like:

 

 

Which gives a softer, slightly stylised, version I quite like.

 

Or a more literal horseshoe,as previously:

 

Although given the circumstances I think we can dispense with nail holes?

 

Given the various different wagons that need to be marked, sizes of c. 6", 9" and 12" (transfers of 2mm, 3mm and 4mm)?

 

Alternative

I think, but cannot currently find evidence for, the T&S Canal Coy put their logo on their warehouses...and I think this was something like the Company initials in the quadrants of a quartered circle. For the 'T S Ry' or 'M W Ry', could we borrow the East India Company's

...to come up with something appropriate?

 

Follow-up question 

Does the company change totem when it changes name? The horseshoe is from the 'Tudor coat' of the City of Gloucester's second coat of arms, granted in 1538 and seen on the left below, to highlight the town's ironworking industry which is a nice little chemin de fer nod.

(vs the better known and much more widespread 'Commonwealth Coat', legally granted in 1945 and renewed in 1979 after first being granted under the, you guessed it, Commonwealth in 1658, which is the much older device. It combines the chevrons of the Clare family, earls of Gloucester in the C12th-C14th, and roundels of the Bishopric of Worcester, which encompassed Gloucester. Anyway, on with the scheduled programming).

 

This motif was then taken into the County arms, as seen below on Shire Hall of that city:

 

and makes a logical symbol for a regional entity, and a nice link for an ex-canal company*. @Compound2632 might recognise an element of the Midland arms too. The slogan ("Ever Forward") works well...although I had in mind something "Tempus aestusque..." based (the T&S having outmanoeuvred the Severn and Channel tides, and later introduced Railway Time). Sorely tempted to lean into the Saxon vibe of 'Mercia and Wessex' (would that be "Tima and tid ne bidaþ manna"?), but such a motto would put me more in mind of the first folk revival of the 1890s-1900s than High Victoriana. No motto but the railway company name on a banner would be the norm, but given the ridiculous name the Company formed under I thought perhaps a motto might fly...?

 

*Was the railway originally horse-drawn Stroud to Lechlade, to start the canal-replacement service ASAP, with steam power only arriving on the line once Stonehouse Junction/run to Gloucester and Swindon were in place...?

 

And then (yes, there's more, sorry!) is it likely that the M&WJR adopted a new totem after its formation (say by 1870, to help us place developments in context)? Or more likely they'd have kept the old one? Worth bearing in mind it's a re-branding exercise and modernisation opportunity rather than any form of merger or buyout from one of the major Companies etc.

 

If so, what would be its likely form? The only one which leaps to mind is a crucifix-style cross, representing the network, perhaps with an initial at the end of each arm...but would such a symbol be seen as off-limits even if based on a mirrored Long S? Very very roughly something like:

 

 

Not a problem for today, but it's another plate we can set spinning... :)

 

Edited April 30, 2023 by Schooner
EIC added

[MrWolf]

1 hour ago, Schooner said:

Oh, I'm so glad! The major 'problem' with the inglenook ratio is that the aesthetics of 5:3:3 sidings are so well-known that they leap out and we tend to stop really looking after that "Aha! An inglenook!" moment. To disguise this is part of the genius of @Harlequin's plan, and a concerted effort with the scenics.

 

Over the past year or two of looking at the scheme in different settings I've come to find it works best as originally conceived - two stub sidings off a running line - both aesthetically and operationally. This is why the 0 plan has always taken this format

even though it means stretching credulity at least as much as Ingleford!

 

Bravo! Dammit, that's definitely the gauntlet thrown down! I have a sheet of black paper set aside for the job, but I'm using all available round tuits at the moment. Thanks for the inspiration :) @magmouse was deemed to be cheating by working too close to 12":1'!

 

Not to worry - the brown pigment is really rather light (I was using the green for darkening, so it's just a case of great saturation of the same tone. Colour:

vs. clarity

(immediately after the second pour, bubbles removed with heatgun).

 

Sorry, not getting that. Nuanced how? FWIW the version I get looking at RMWeb on my phone is closer to the style of glyph I had in mind than I see on a computer. Screenie in the next post to demonstrate.

 

Although I see that might be rendered moot as @railtec-models (who I decided not to tag last night after some consideration!) has entered the chat, and proves to be an absolute star once again. I'll finish this post to buy myself some thinking time, then follow up here for feedback and we can go from there? Enjoy your brew Steve!

 

I did - as per tare weights on red GWR stock :) Not seen it either, but I'm still flying a bit blind here as useful prototype images are scarce and helpful model images, eg

I've learned as 'LB&SCR Practice', rightly or wrongly, and so don't want to copy too closely. Without knowing enough to come up with something plausible I've had to lean on logic (uh oh...)

 

As the M&WJR has grown slightly over the course of our research to date (bullseye indeed!), I think it is more likely that wagons need to be numbered than in the original iteration of the scheme. I still want to give the impression that this is a small independent line though, and thought maybe the small cursive numerals would give that impression...and of course such numbers are widely available as transfers! 

 

Improvements/alternatives most welcome from any corner!

 

Perfectly in line with my thinking, thank you! So I think with this early stock we're still looking at T&S liveries of the 1850s for the most part, repainted between 5-10 years ago; but by the time of Ingleford (c.1875 to cover the locomotives) we're already in the realm of the MW&JR. Good to know, not least for loco liveries and associated transfer designs...!

 

Ideal, will do!

 

Your plan has certainly taken me off at a tangent, as it's thoroughly credible.

 

This was only a stone's throw from where we live.

 

Roger Farnworth 

 

The Mill.

 

 

Aerial view including St George's works and gas works.

 

 

On the right of the curve connecting the Glasson Dock Branch to Lancaster Castle station was the maintenance department, home for many years to several LNWR 2-2-2 locomotives in departmental use, surely an excellent excuse for an oddball and antiquated model? 

 

The other side of the Lancaster & Carlisle Railway viaduct visible in picture two, this link with the past hasn't been flattened.

 

Ian G.

 

Flickr Ministry.

 

Sorry for the derailment, but I thought it might be of interest.

[WFPettigrew]

23 minutes ago, Schooner said:

I was thinking either a 'standard' glyph, like:

 

 

This gets my vote - because it also looks like a meandering river, or a canal following contours. 

 

As to whether it lasted beyond the big name change (or perhaps the change from the silly big name to something a bit more sensible?!) well that's really down to you.  We know that so-called illiterate symbols lasted into the 20th century and if the purpose of it was to clearly identify the wagons of a particular company, well your company might have a more regional new name (and cheaper on the paint jobs for lettering) but as you say it is the same company just rebranded to reflect its wider geographical spread.  In which case there would be no great need to change the symbol on the wagons.  

 

Thinking further, whilst the Midland was the progenitor of company initials on wagons, when did the illiterate symbol lark actually begin?  (And where therefore does this style fit into your timelines?)  I am just musing on whether the initial canal-infill might have been too early for such extravegance?

 

[Schooner]

Well blow me!

[chuffinghell]

What about the Latin glyph for fast food?

 

[WFPettigrew]

4 minutes ago, Schooner said:

Well blow me!

Well that moves your start date back into antiquity!  You could even have your1875 Ingleford celebrating 50 years of the world's oldest public railway if they got their skates on!

 

 

[Schooner]

Ah, the ancient gateway to Old MacDonald's Farm, lauded in paens to this day...

[chuffinghell]

I’ve been meaning to ask what resin you have used for the water

[Schooner]

@chuffinghell Glasscast 50

[chuffinghell]

28 minutes ago, Schooner said:

@chuffinghell Glasscast 50

Looks great!

[magmouse]

4 hours ago, Schooner said:

@magmouse was deemed to be cheating by working too close to 12":1'!

 

Outrageous! That's not cheating - I was, err, err... making a maquette! All the proper artists do it - you make a smaller bigger version so you can see what it will be like when it's made at the actual size. Just take my method and scale it down - simples.

 

4 hours ago, Schooner said:

Sorry, not getting that. Nuanced how?

 

I was referring to the way 'properly' designed typefaces have lots of subtle adjustments to line widths, proportions, and so on, for both aesthetic reasons and to improve readability. Some of these metrics will get adjusted depending on the size the typeface is being reproduced. Traditional signwriting has little of that, being mainly based on simple geometric layouts and the eye and experience of the signwriter - especially for the curved strokes - as we have seen and discussed before. My point was that, when you blow up a glyph from a typeface with all these nuances - especially one intended for body text - it won't look like sign writing.

 

4 hours ago, Schooner said:

I did - as per tare weights on red GWR stock :) Not seen it either, but I'm still flying a bit blind here as useful prototype images are scarce and helpful model images, eg

 

Ah, I see what you mean from the example photo. Yes, do that - it is very characterful, and is a style used by a few companies, especially in the earlier period - SER, LNWR on wagon sheets, probably others. I thought you might mean something more italicised and flowing, which wouldn't be right, I don't think, for the running numbers.

 

For the horseshoe, I would go with the version that looks like a horseshoe, if it were me (which it isn't) - I actually like the nail holes as well. I also like the cross/dagger very much. I think with the version you showed it looks sufficiently different to a Christian cross to be OK, and is another nice opportunity for the signwriter's flourish!

 

Nick.

[Compound2632]

3 hours ago, Schooner said:

@Compound2632 might recognise an element of the Midland arms too. 

 

There, the unfortunate slung sheep* is part of the arms of the City of Leeds - equally woolly in its medieval origins.

 

*Not a live sheep, or even a dead one, but a fleece: "azure, a fleece or; on a chief sable three mullets argent".

[figworthy]

4 hours ago, Schooner said:

Well blow me!

 

Which never came to reality (not that such minor details worries us !). 

 

The Stroudwater Navigation were sufficiently worried by the prospect that they cut their tolls, and in doing so, killed off the scheme. (The Canals of South and South East England - Charles Hadfield)

 

Adrian

[Worsdell forever]

3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

There, the unfortunate slung sheep* is part of the arms of the City of Leeds - equally woolly in its medieval origins.

 

*Not a live sheep, or even a dead one, but a fleece: "azure, a fleece or; on a chief sable three mullets argent".

 

I wouldn't say mullets, more rock 'n roll long...

 

[Pacific231G]

On 27/04/2023 at 22:16, WFPettigrew said:

 

Genuine question - were there gates on towpaths?  Given that the horses were often left to their own devices to plod along, etc.?

 

Other than that, it seems that ever since you "larged it" with that red purchase, the 4mm has come on in massive leaps and bounds, and all in the right direction. 

 

All the best

 

Neil 

Hi Neil

I don't think so. I've certainly never come across one or its remains. Rivers are/were a different matter and I can remember the Thames Conservancy gates along its towpath (always well kept and painted a pleasing shade of light blue) There is a section of the Oxford canal where it uses the Cherwell and there are no signs of gates on the towpath though on the opposite bank there are places for cattle to drink and fences that come right down to the water. Canals were private enterprises like railways and the towpath was on canal company land but I'm not aware of towpath gates at junctions between canals. The other thing I've only just twigged is that the reason why the towpath side of rural canals is so well hedged off was that local farmers didnt want the bargeees grazing the horses on their fields. The need to carry fodder for the horse must have  cut down the carrying capacity of canal boats but I've not seen that documented- how and where were the horses supplied with feed? 

[figworthy]

1 hour ago, Pacific231G said:

The other thing I've only just twigged is that the reason why the towpath side of rural canals is so well hedged off was that local farmers didnt want the bargeees grazing the horses on their fields. The need to carry fodder for the horse must have  cut down the carrying capacity of canal boats but I've not seen that documented- how and where were the horses supplied with feed? 

 

There was also the minor detail of stopping the boatmen or bargees from helping themselves to what ever they fancied.  How much of this was a valid concern, and how much was stereotyping I don't know, but certainly some land owners made sure barriers were a requirement on the enabling act.

 

Adrian

[drduncan]

The Wessex symbol is a red wyvern or there is the medieval https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:FlagOfWessex.svg#mw-jump-to-license

 

Mercia is a yellow saltire on a blue background, again a medieval creation. 
 

Given Victorian interest in antiquarianism any of these might have been  co-opted by the M&WJR. The wyvren might have been seem as a bit too Welsh (and Arthurian) for taste, but on the plus side both medieval coats of arms share a blue background which might allow the company to play around with.

 

Duncan 

 

 

[lezz01]

The wyvern is also the symbol of the Midland Railway so might not have been used in this context.

Regards Lez.  

[Northroader]

No, no gates on towpaths. Some fodder for the horse could be stowed on the barge, otherwise there were pubs scattered along the canal which had stables and could provide feed.

[Schooner]

A very small fight in the war against disinformation, granted, but I gently refer Mssrs @Pacific231G and @Northroader to the correct answer, as given and explained to the best of my current understanding in direct response to the question:

As that was obviously unconvincing, see:

the below makes it clearer, but is much less fun

etc. Shall I provide all the references from the aforementioned photographic trilogy, too?

 

On 30/04/2023 at 19:52, figworthy said:

Which never came to reality (not that such minor details worries us !). 

Indeed not, much to the relief of the Board of the M&WJR-to-be! It was more that not five mins after positing a horse-drawn rail-(but really tram)way as the scheme's very first commercial iteration, the next stoned tern revealed just such a thing. I'll see about getting a copy of the map and section, should be interesting :)

 

3 hours ago, drduncan said:

The Wessex symbol is a red wyvern...on the plus side both medieval coats of arms share a blue background which might allow the company to play around with.

Interesting stuff, added to the Things to Think About pile. Coming up with the Company Arms is not an immediate concern (what of this plan is?!), but will be an important one to get right and I welcome the info :)

 

Side note on totems: Without knowing what they're for it's a bit tricky to make an educated guess as to what would've been picked and when. My best guess is that they might be deemed a requirement once the line to Salisbury is open* and through traffic from more than just the GWR needs to be handled in quantity. At this time, we see a livery change, running numbers added to wagons, the Company name change and a general spruce up of the place. This means I'm leaning away from the horseshoe idea and towards the stylised cross/routemap/T-made-of-Ses thing. Better or worse with the sides equal? (Easiest to compare with each in a seperate tab).

@MrWolf Ah, yes! I know Glasson, but not well and had forgotten that it would be a great reference. Added to the list, thank you!

 

On 30/04/2023 at 17:51, magmouse said:

My point was that, when you blow up a glyph from a typeface with all these nuances - especially one intended for body text - it won't look like sign writing.

Ah, right, with you, thanks for spelling that out. Yes, agreed, that sounds like a potential pitfall. Also agreed re nail holes in principle, but in practice I can't imagine they'd be visible/viable at 1:76 anyway...?

 

I see now why you have a particular appreciation of the sign-writer's flourish, too. Shall endeavour not to disappoint when the time comes :)

 

@chuffinghell Sorry you got the minimum-effort response there, I was out of time! The range I used is here, and so far so good - quick delivery, does what it says on the tin (if you do what it says on the tin) etc.

 

In fact their service is great, even turning round an order on a Bank Holiday. How do I know? Well the 'final' late-night/early-morning pour (time, tide, and epoxy resins wait for no man) was rather hindered by a split mixing pot. Not ideal. As a result, more resin has been ordered, and I'll just have to hope I can eek out the cure times...I managed to get a layer on, and there's just (🤞) enough for one more. It's going to be tight.

 

Should've just done it in two goes!

 

Oh well, it's flat and shiny if a bit low still...

...so it's so far so good...as long as I can get the next batch in time and don't have to wait for a full cure and then try to give the whole lot a sand.

 

That would be dull.

Edited May 1, 2023 by Schooner

[magmouse]

Regarding the totem, I like the one with equal arms:

 

 

Which made me wonder about

 

 

Because it reminded me of

 

(William Blake's The Ancient of Days)

 

Anyway, perhaps all a bit too whimsical and far from the logic your are developing.

 

Nick.

[chuffinghell]

Looks like a pair of scissors to me, I wonder what a psychologist would make of that 🤣

[MrWolf]

Or blacksmith's tongs which would be appropriate to the era and the new technologies of the industrial revolution, I like the upright version, which to my eyes (Oh how I suffer for my art dear...etc) has an almost mystical runic quality indicating some ancient route perhaps.

[Schooner]

For Thames and Severn read Tongs or Scissors...?! Or do they reference sheep sheers perhaps...?

 

2 hours ago, magmouse said:

I like the one with equal arms

Me too.

 

2 hours ago, magmouse said:

Anyway, perhaps all a bit too whimsical and far from the logic your are developing.

 

Perhaps, but I have a lot of time for Blake and such suggestions always have a home here :) 

 

1 hour ago, chuffinghell said:

Looks like a pair of scissors to me

Me too! In fact I had to edit calling it that out of the last post for fear of leading the witnesses.

 

51 minutes ago, MrWolf said:

Or blacksmith's tongs which would be appropriate to the era and the new technologies of the industrial revolution.

Very true. I must look up (and record, for once) when the various industries - inc. the various ironworks - became established in the Five Valleys.

 

54 minutes ago, MrWolf said:

I like the upright version, which to my eyes (Oh how I suffer for my art dear...etc) has an almost mystical runic quality indicating some ancient route perhaps.

Also me too, on both counts. In fact I was a little worried about the risk it'd too closely resemble a famous symbol coopted by the serially ill-intentioned, but I think we're well clear. I assume it'd be fine for 1870, but less so since that collection of genocidal clustercusses went tearing round Europe making a nuisance of themselves, particularly since their sad little tribute act kicked up fuss in the European East (2014, for clarity). Bunch of Tuesdays, the lot of 'em.

 

Anyway. Shall we have a chuff?

 

Beyer Peacock could not make a pretty 2-4-0

But even their duff 0-6-0s were glorious

 

 

Discuss. (20 marks)