More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[Schooner]

Gosh, I didn't do very well at explaining myself there!

 

33 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

...no model involved.

For you, no. For me, however... :) Compliment, rather than slight, intended.

 

33 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

For the ties, I use a grey sewing thread - 100% cotton according to the bobbin - that came out of the sewing box, a choice driven by colour rather than any consideration of the suitability of the material. The ropes are a 100% polyester thread, bought at Hobbycraft yesterday, chosen simply because it was the only type that was thicker than the rest; I bought black because the shades of grey available were too light or too silvery. Ropes were tarred, after all. I made no attempt to represent the ferrules.

My lack of clarity again, failing to make a distinction between questions relating to model* and the prototype**.

 

*Colour considerations, it looking dark to my eye even for tarred rope.

**Raw material used, which is related to the colour; method and system of using coloured strands for Company identification. 

 

Surprised that even the ties ended in ferrules, let alone the ropes.

 

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

Using two pairs of pliers, three hands, and a week's supply of patience, the links can be made to close up with hardly a sign of a gap. As hard to describe in words as to do!

Ah good, so I'm on the right path then!

[Compound2632]

12 minutes ago, Schooner said:

Surprised that even the ties ended in ferrules, let alone the ropes.

 

I think only the ropes had ferrules, not the sheet strings or ties.

 

No attempt made at the distinguishing coloured thread in the ropes!

[Compound2632]

A while ago there was a discussion here on brick loads. There have since been some very nice examples in 2 mm scale by @Ian Smith:

 

 

(which conveniently gives the link to the bit of film we had discussed)

 

and more recently by @magmouse in 7 mm scale, with individual bricks:

 

I don't think my attempt yet bears comparison:

 

 

There is a tediously-scribed brick pattern there, more discernible to the naked eye. I didn't want to over-do it, as we're to suppose the bricks are tightly packed in. It's made up from 0.060" Plastikard - the right thickness for bricks stacked on their long edge - but the piece that came to hand was narrower than the wagon, hence the mix of pieces and layers.

 

More by luck than judgement, I've got rather uniform dark red brick, typical of much late 19th / early 20th building on the north side of Birmingham, through Erdington and into Sutton Coldfield - rather ugly terraced villas. I suppose such brick was local; as we know, brickworks often went hand-in-hand with collieries. They certainly did on the Cannock Chase coalfield. So I'm supposing this lot has been dispatched from the Aldridge Colliery Co.'s brickworks or somewhere similar and hasn't yet travelled very far, this being my excuse for the lack of loose bricks...

 

The wagon looks to be straight out of the paintshop, on a day when someone skimped on a shovel-full of lamp black in the paint mix. Such very pale grey is more often seen in late Midland days - post-Great War, or so it seems to me, but here's a September 1898 example:

 

 

However freshly-painted it looks, the paint is actually about a third of a century old, as this model date from my student days, when I was dabbling in P4:

 

 

The MJT compensated inside-bearing units never gave free running; I hadn't understood that one should solder the washers up to give a greater bearing area. I have several like this, candidate for 00-ifying - which will involve fitting pin-point bearing cups at that end.

[magmouse]

11 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

I don't think my attempt yet bears comparison:

 

Reading Ian's post about his, the two things he did that might help yours are the wash to bring out slightly the scrubbed lines, and picking out some individual bricks - assuming you want to go to those lengths. I think the colour is good for midland brick.

 

Nick.

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, magmouse said:

Reading Ian's post about his, the two things he did that might help yours are the wash to bring out slightly the scrubbed lines, and picking out some individual bricks - assuming you want to go to those lengths.

 

I ended up with the midland brick colour by applying the dark wash...

 

My lines are not very heavily scribed. I've tried re-scribing the transverse lines, which I think has helped emphasise the stacking of the bricks. here's a view from a different angle that is perhaps more flattering to my efforts:

 

 

[Compound2632]

Lettering in progress:

 

 

It must be getting on for forty years since I last put LMS on a wagon as a spotty teenager abusing a Ratio medium goods wagon kit. The transfers are from the waterslide sheet that comes with current Slaters kits.

 

Of course this is a Midland wagon, just not quite built in time... Lot 987, entered in the lot list with date 25 October 1922. 

 

I need a number and only have No. 4203 for this lot, from the photo in Midland Wagons Vol. 2.

 

I'm aware I should fit the vacuum through pipe. (And the roof.) possibly also cattle - representing a wagon on its first trip. My contribution to celebration of the Grouping!

Edited March 6, 2023 by Compound2632

[jamie92208]

7 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Lettering in progress:

 

 

It must be getting on for forty years since I last put LMS on a wagon as a spotty teenager abusing a Ratio medium goods wagon kit. The transfers are from the waterslide sheet that comes with current Slaters kits.

 

Of course this is a Midland wagon, just not quite built in time... Lot 987, entered in the lot list with date 25 October 1922. 

 

I need a number and only have No. 4203 for this lot, from the photo in Midland Wagons Vol. 2.

 

I'm aware I should fit the vacuum through pipe. (And the roof.) possibly also cattle - representing a wagon on its first trip. My contribution to celebration of the Grouping!

It would fit on Green Ayre as it's set in 1923 ish to allow such things. scale might be a problem though. However I'm not short pf cattle wagons as the max train length on Green Ayre is 17 wagons rather than the 23 of Long Preston.   It's looking good.

 

Jamie

[Rowsley17D]

It a nice kit and build but are the buffers fixed, Stephen? They look to have a bit of a droop!

Edited March 6, 2023 by Rowsley17D

[Penlan]

Just now, Rowsley17D said:

Are the buffers fixed, Stephen? They look to have a bit of a droop!

Age related? 🤐

[Compound2632]

6 minutes ago, Rowsley17D said:

Are the buffers fixed, Stephen? They look to have a bit of a droop!

 

They do, don't they? I blame the Grouping.

 

A bit of gentle tweaking has now been done.

Edited March 6, 2023 by Compound2632

[Penlan]

7 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

A bit of gentle tweaking has now been done.

If only life was so simple .... 😇

[Northroader]

Please, teacher, mark me homework. If a D299 wagon is 14’6” inside length, 7’0” inside width, and the height up the first three planks inside is around 1’9”, i make the volume of that as about 177.6 cubic feet. Then looking up building material densities, bricks come in at around 100 lb. per cubic foot, so the weight if loaded up to the first three planks is eight tons, and maybe a bit less cos there’s some small gaps between the bricks, then you’ve got the wagon loaded up to the rated capacity, before you load anymore layers of bricks in. Just saying, I had the same trouble with people putting paving slabs in a LSWR stone wagon.

[magmouse]

58 minutes ago, Northroader said:

Please, teacher, mark me homework. If a D299 wagon is 14’6” inside length, 7’0” inside width, and the height up the first three planks inside is around 1’9”, i make the volume of that as about 177.6 cubic feet. Then looking up building material densities, bricks come in at around 100 lb. per cubic foot, so the weight if loaded up to the first three planks is eight tons, and maybe a bit less cos there’s some small gaps between the bricks, then you’ve got the wagon loaded up to the rated capacity, before you load anymore layers of bricks in. Just saying, I had the same trouble with people putting paving slabs in a LSWR stone wagon.

 

Maybe it's full of air bricks?

 

Actually, I did the same sums when I did my 3-plank LSWR wagon, linked above. You do need to allow for the frogs, assuming the bricks have one (and we can't tell, because they are on edge...). That might get you an extra plank, together with assuming the bricks are at the lighter end - there is quite a lot of variation of density, it seems.

 

Nick.

[Dave John]

Then you get the fly guy who leaves an inch gap between bricks on the first few layers, loads the last layer tight , gets a pat on the back from the foreman and off to the pub ......... 

[billbedford]

33 minutes ago, Dave John said:

Then you get the fly guy who leaves an inch gap between bricks on the first few layers, loads the last layer tight , gets a pat on the back from the foreman and off to the pub ......... 

And you know straight away that that guy is not on piecework. 

[Compound2632]

8 hours ago, Northroader said:

Please, teacher, mark me homework. If a D299 wagon is 14’6” inside length, 7’0” inside width, and the height up the first three planks inside is around 1’9”, i make the volume of that as about 177.6 cubic feet. Then looking up building material densities, bricks come in at around 100 lb. per cubic foot, so the weight if loaded up to the first three planks is eight tons, and maybe a bit less cos there’s some small gaps between the bricks, then you’ve got the wagon loaded up to the rated capacity, before you load anymore layers of bricks in. Just saying, I had the same trouble with people putting paving slabs in a LSWR stone wagon.

 

Marked as correct. We went into all this upthread, which foolishly I did not check. But I think you can see that for my wagon, the loader started loading up the the fourth plank, until the foreman pointed out to him that it's an eight-ton wagon.

[Buhar]

Four or five of those loaded and the running foreman will be looking to double head the train.

[Compound2632]

Here's part of the relevant discussion:

 This showed that 8 tons of brick would occupy somewhere between just over half and around two-thirds of the wagon. So I think my model is a bit overloaded and I need to shorten the spacers underneath.

 

[fulton]

42 minutes ago, Buhar said:

Four or five of those loaded and the running foreman will be looking to double head the train.

And of course Engineering Bricks are considerably heavier, some also being solid with no frog or holes. Photo SMEED DEAN bricks being loaded at their siding, Sittingbourne Kent, poor copy in my collection, no date. My first building site, still had everything "hand balled" a load of 5000 bricks would be unloaded in 20 minutes, the lorry driver and mate would move them to the edge, then two of us would, five at a time stack them, in a particular pattern so the stack was stable, your heart sunk when a lorry was waiting first thing, or worse turning up at 4,30 when you are ready to go home.

[Compound2632]

48 minutes ago, fulton said:

Photo SMEED DEAN bricks being loaded at their siding, Sittingbourne Kent, poor copy in my collection, no date. 

 

Fascinating photo. Post-Great War, as the Midland wagon on the left has its number under the M - also the SECR wagon is a post-war type, I think. No grouping markings, so certainly no later than first half of the 1920s. Four Midland wagons - all D299 I'd say; the one on the left looking a bit stretched by the camera optics. The sheet on the next wagon looks to be L&NW but as we've discussed, at this period that doesn't mean there's a L&NW wagon under it. To the right of the SECR wagon, a GW 5-plank with sheet rail - I think one can make out that the buuffer shank looks quite fat, i.e. it's got self-contained buffers - I think that makes it O11 rather than O4 or O9? Then three Midland wagons and a Brighton one; is there another wagon beyond that?    

[ian@stenochs]

On 02/03/2023 at 17:17, Compound2632 said:

 

There's an interestingly high proportion of Midland stock for this LNWR goods station (Curzon Street). Are we seeing the fruit of the 1908 traffic agreements?

 

 

[Embedded link to Warwickshire Railways lnwrcs1503, per link in previous post.]

 

But the wagon with the new sheet is curious. I've not been able to match it to a LNWR diagram - the D31 coke wagons come closest but the cupboard doors, which I think were unique to that diagram, were taller than those we see. Plus the characteristic quadrant cut-out of the headstock end is lacking.

 

Note the wagon turntables, a house speciality since 1837.

I’m just catching up after a weekend away.

Definitely a G&SW 10 ton mineral.  Here is a scan from a view of Ardrossan harbour in much earlier times with an almost new example amongst the older dumb buffered wagons.  Only a single shoe brake, probably one either side in the Curzon St view but not definite. Note that the 6ton wagon has no brake on this side.

 

I wonder what traffic the wagon carried to Birmingham, probably not coal. The G&SW had loads of mineral wagons so perhaps pushed into service instead of an open merchandise wagon.

[Compound2632]

The cows have come:

 

 

These are the Scale 3D "Small Dairy Cows Group x 6 Plus Bull OO 1:76" to which @phil_sutters alerted me - I ordered two packs so there are some identical twins here. They're just slightly too long to stand width-ways but that's partly down to tails. They are about 15 mm to 17 mm tall at the rump - 3' 9" to 4' 3"; googling "cow dimensions" I find that modern Holsteins are nominally 1.45 m - 4' 9" - which accords with my experience, so these will do for Herefords or other early 20th century breeds, I believe. Some data here suggests "classic" Herefords around 4' 0" at the rump. 

 

This appears to tally with my reference photos:

 

 

[DY9164, embedded link to Derby registers]

 

 

[DY9164, embedded link to Derby registers]

 

Note that the second photo shows a wagon with 6" higher sides - 4' 6" vs 4' 0" from floor level, the D1661 wagon also having 4' 0" sides. 

 

The cows' heads are visible above the side, along with the rumps of the taller beasts:

 

 

The bull's a good size and finely (and fully) detailed...

 

The material in which these animals are printed is quite flexible and there are some very thin parts - the ears are paper-thin - so some care is needed in removing the printing support pieces, as Phil has mentioned. They compare very favourably with whitemetal cattle I've seen; they do though lack weight. Two packs plus postage was under £10.

[billbedford]

Partition still to do?

[Compound2632]

6 hours ago, billbedford said:

Partition still to do?

 

This was just a test fitting - cows to be painted! But yes, the Parkside kit includes the partition (in fact two, as it's on the same sprue as the sides and ends). One for this truck and one for the medium truck - I doubt the design changed much.

[wagonman]

I read somewhere that cattle were usually loaded head to tail. Quite how they managed that I have no idea! Something to investigate perhaps...

 

 

 

Richard