Martin S-C

Interesting. I didn't know that. I have this impression from lots of model railway layout photos that 2 or 3 cattle vans seemed to spend a long time standing at the loading docks. Yes, I suppose the actual loading and unloading of animals would be done almost as speedily as one would like to load human passengers but surely the dock and any associated siding would be a convenient place to store other goods wagons, even if they were not cattle vans? Is this better? The space freed up by the moved cattle dock allows me to slip in one of those scenes I love seeing - a row of railwaymen's cottages, complete with back yards. If I make them three floors high it will make a nice sight break and there is no need to reach over these models very much as the track work beyond is all throat-work where trains will move past. Access to couplings and such is only needed to left (passenger stock) and right (goods stock) of them. I've slewed the brake van siding over so now there's room for a guard's tea break hut to the right of that siding's buffer stop and the area below the word "BRAKE" is now wide enough to allow horse and cart access so although I lose the siding length adjacent to the end loading dock I gain the track above that. I'm working on the premise that end loading dock roads didn't need to be long as only one vehicle could use the dock. There is always the goods shed interior and the platform concourse where a couple more short sidings end-stop at platform height, so carriages and motor cars could arguably be entrained here as well. I'm very much in favour of the simplified pointwork. I was never fully comfortable with the look of the PECO 3-way points. Tentative board joints added in pink. No points across board joins this time.

I can now see the lo-res version that Ian just sent me by PM and I shall go buy the CD those images are on as I think the hi-res one will be extremely useful. Moving the discussion on. Here's my thoughts in reply to Nick's comments on my attempt to set down exactly what is needed and where. Nick's comments remain in red, my new ones in green. Eastbound home at the exit from the fiddle yard (out of view to the left), (1 HS lever). P3/P4 west crossover is a ground signal (GS), (1 GS lever + 1 turnout lever operating both turnouts). P3 westbound starter is a simple home or stop signal, (1 HS lever). This and the previous two would, I think, be on a ground frame. I can see your thinking there but in the case of a through circuit set up, passenger trains will be passing here, so to me a small “West Box” seems more appropriate. The bobby here would issue the westbound line token as well. I tend to think of ground frames as things worked by loco crews with a key attached to the token staff and while I know that's not always the case such frames always feel "local" or "part time" to me while this one is controlling mainline traffic when the layout is configured for a circuit so would need to be manned for the same daily hours as the main box and the bobby would need full instruments, a roof, stove, telephone, etc., so this location to me says "signal box" more than "ground frame". P3 crossover/loco release is a ground signal, (1 GS lever + 1 turnout lever operating both turnouts). Signal from middle siding is a ground signal, (1 GS lever). Signal from P2 siding is a ground signal, (1 GS lever). Signal at P2 loco release crossover is a ground signal, (1 GS lever + 1 turnout lever operating both turnouts). Looking at a few diagrams from termini on SRS, several don't have signals protecting the loco release crossovers - presumably they'd have been hand-signalled. Several have then worked from a local ground-frame as well, so probably worked by the loco crew themselves - usually with an electrical release from the 'box. Thanks. The whole question of ground signals becomes relevant if I model working ones which isn’t decided yet. A dummy ground signal here (and everywhere else) is not a great deal of work in comparison to installing working ones with all the mechanical and electronic apparatus required. The jury is still out on this one. Signal at P1 loco release crossover is a ground signal, (1 GS lever + 1 turnout lever operating both turnouts). Shunt signal to parcels bay is a ground signal, (1 GS lever). Middle siding is a ground signal, (1 GS lever + 1 turnout lever operating 1 turnout). P3 & P4 eastbound starters and both bracket signals with 2 arms, left arm being lower for the branch. Each post also carries a shunting arm (SA), (4 HS levers + 2 SA levers). If P3 is only used for terminating branch trains, you might not need the route to the main being signalled? As discussed previously, in its terminus format the station will need two starters here. I do like the idea of a branch service always terminating at P3, the loco running around and then shunting its train to the departure platform P4. I’m all in favour of anything that increases play value. I am also considering running freight up the branch in mixed trains which I imagine would involve: Up branch service arrives in P3. Loco runs around, couples to passenger brake van/coach and shunts it to P4. Loco then collects whole train and shunts it to P4 so that now the passenger vehicles with brake coach in rear are ready for a return service. Loco shunts goods vehicles across to freight loop (below P1) and leaves them there to be dealt with by the yard shunter. Any outgoing goods wagons are picked up at the same time and moved across to P4. The passenger coaches are moved to P3, the goods vehicles put onto the brake coach in P4 and finally the passenger rake put on the front of the train. I see this as incredibly time-consuming as well as blocking two platform roads. I could I suppose, between branch services, leave the train in the middle siding between P2 and P3. I have a photograph of Hunstanton that shows a complete train here so it seems it may have been used for that purpose. Would there be a more efficient way of shunting a mixed train though? East P4 points is a turnout lever, (1 turnout lever operating 1 turnout). Shunt from middle loop is a ground signal, (1 GS lever + 1 turnout lever operating 1 turnout). P1 & P2 starters are simple home/stop signals. Each post also carries a shunting arm (SA), (2 HS levers + 2 SA levers). NOTE: Branch services never leave from P1 & P2 so bracket signals not necessary here, all departures head down the main. Shunt from P1 loop is a ground signal, (1 GS lever + 1 turnout lever operating both turnouts). Cattle dock siding is a ground signal, (1 GS lever + 1 turnout lever operating 1 turnout). [See thoughts on Phil’s proposal below]. Yard exit siding is a ground signal, (1 GS lever + 1 turnout lever operating 1 turnout). No point lever here, it's on the same crossover as P1 loop. My apologies. I wasn’t clear there. It’s the turnout directly north of the cattle dock, not the one to the left that joins the P1 loop crossover. However see thoughts on Phil’s proposal below. Yard contains 2 hand-operated single turnouts and one crossover, (on the control panel this will be 3 turnout levers). P2 and P3 crossover is a turnout lever, (1 turnout lever operating both turnouts). P1 and P2 entry is a turnout lever, (1 turnout lever operating 1 turnout). Shunt from loco yard is a ground signal, (1 GS lever + 1 turnout lever operating 1 turnout). NOTE: Entry to loco yard is via P3/P4 controlled by shunt arms. Loco yard contains 2 hand-operated single turnouts and the turntable, (on the control panel this will be 2 turnout levers and a rotating track-selector switch). Main to P1 & P2 crossover is a turnout lever, (1 turnout lever operating both turnouts). Shunt from CS1 is a ground signal, (1 GS lever + 1 turnout lever operating 1 turnout). Shunt from CS2 & CS3 is a ground signal, (1 GS lever + 2 turnout levers operating 2 turnouts). Only one point lever, the other is covered by the main-P1/2 crossover. Again with a 3-way point at the main line crossover, this lever operates the right hand road of that 3-way that accesses CS1 so I think it is needed. NOTE: Would it be more correct to have all 3 CS stem from one set of points connected to the running lines? So CS2 & CS3 turnout runs off CS1 rather than join the centre track of the 3-way? This removes the need for a 3-way and 1 ground signal. Yes - usually you want to minimise the number of facing points on any passenger line, so much better to have just one and hand-points within the CS yard. Similarly, if you could move the cattle dock points the other side of the loop crossover, they'd be hand points too, and save another ground signal. Good to know. Currently playing with track planning software as we speak (type?). Now done - see below! Branch home is a 2-arm bracket signal that controls access to P3 & P4, plus a shunting arm for goods trains to access the P1 loop, (2 HS levers + 1 SA lever + 1 turnout lever operating both turnouts). Would branch trains run into P4? or just P3? They might if it’s a push-pull or railcar. I’d like to keep the flexibility. Main home is a 4-arm bracket stepped down from left to right to control entry to P1, P2, P3 and P4, plus a shunting arm for goods trains to access the P1 loop, (4 HS levers + 1 SA lever). Do you need main trains into P4? I'd assumed westbound + branch in P3, eastbound in P4. Yes, when in terminus mode. NOTE: Above two sets of signals could be a gantry spanning the branch and main tracks. Advanced starters are both simple home or stop signals, (2 HS levers). Outer homes are both simple home or stop signals, (2 HS levers). TOTALS: 15 ground signals 8 single arm stop signals, two with shunting arms 2 twin arm bracket signals, left arm lower, both have shunting arms 1 twin arm bracket signal, right arm lower, with shunting arm 1 four arm bracket signal, rightmost arms stepped lower, with shunting arm 21 turnout levers I make it 19 points (including hand points/ground frames), 17 stop signals, 19 shunt signals - or with the above-mentioned changes, 13 shunt signals. A total of 55 or 49 levers, including hand points and ground frames. There would also be 14 facing point locks, unless you used "economical" ones as per the Midland Railway. Correct. I am not going to model facing point lock release levers. With my new thoughts following your kind comments I’ve tried to clarify a few specifics with the number of levers and the number of arms remains as I first estimated. If I merge two yard/CS turnouts away from the running lines I can dispense with two ground signals. And now, over to Phil for a special report from our on-site correspondent: Alternatively if we take on board this suggestion I can dispense with two more ground signals here. However my first version of the notes omitted ground signals controlling entry INTO the three loco release crossovers (P1, P2, P3), so we are one ground signal up. If a passenger train had tail traffic would such van(s) be shunted against P1, P2 and P3 buffer stops via these crossovers while those platforms were occupied with (empty) passenger rakes, or would all tail traffic be propelled down the platform road before the passenger rake was propelled down onto it? Second option seems more correct but first option seems more fun and unusual. I’m not a massive stickler for correct operations so if the first option was possible I would prefer that. Either way, if the ground signals are dummies it’s not a big concern. Total of 60 levers in the frame (of which 3 are assumed to be at West Box). Now 58 if ground signals are operational and 43 if not, with 2 goods yard lines merged. If I have ground signals controlling entry over P1, P2 and P3 loco crossovers towards the buffer stops it becomes 61 and 43. = = = = = = = = = = Here's an edited track plan. The CS access was easy to alter and now looks much better. There is also an open area of hard standing adjacent to the brake van road so guards don't have to watch their step nearly so much. There may even be room to model an old coach body here as a guards bothy/office. The cattle dock road though is a problem. I've shown in red a couple of options for the end loading dock and livestock siding. Problem is the end loading dock road now denies access to all the siding in green for loading/unloading. The reversed cattle dock siding denies access to all the siding in orange for loading/unloading, however this area was never going to be occupied by standing coal wagons, the coal merchant activity will all be to the far right and this section of track was just a lead-in but even so access the cattle dock now requires a reversal plus it feels awkward; if this were a real railway, it would have just swept off to the right (southwards) more and the railway company would have used more land. So this arrangement to me really cries out "model railway" rather than "modelled railway". Can anyone offer a better solution? If not I'll keep that siding as it was and reinstate the 3-way turnout.

Sadly, Ian, its definitely not working. Is it a signalling diagram? If it is would you mind taking a screenshot of it and sending it to me as a PM? Best not to put it up on here for copyright reasons.

Thanks. I think my surprise is because I have never tried to properly signal such a large station. All my plans so far have been CJFreezer-ish BLTs, etc. Clearly this number of levers is quite normal for a station of this size.

Thank you again Nick C, but a quick reminder, the station is a terminus and needs to be signalled as such. The through track part is a removable section and would be used mostly as light entertainment, so yes, trains from the branch and main need to enter westbound into platform 4. I can jiggle about some turnouts to reduce the number that lead off running lines. Will go play with the software asap. Yes, the plan is based closely on Hunstanton.

I've taken some time to study this. I like it a lot though more complex than I at first imagined, particularly the westbound entry into the station. Going from west to east there is no eastbound home signal as this is assumed to be beyond the tunnel shown at extreme left. In fact if I do have one it would take the form of possibly a simple green/red lamp at the fiddle yard exit or on the fiddle yard operator's panel, although... ...a model signal (home or stop)(HS) is also possible, (1 HS lever). P3/P4 west crossover is a ground signal (GS), (1 GS lever + 1 turnout lever operating both turnouts). P3 westbound starter is a simple home or stop signal, (1 HS lever). P3 crossover/loco release is a ground signal, (1 GS lever + 1 turnout lever operating both turnouts). Signal from middle siding is a ground signal, (1 GS lever). Signal from P2 siding is a ground signal, (1 GS lever). Signal at P2 loco release crossover is a ground signal, (1 GS lever + 1 turnout lever operating both turnouts). Signal at P1 loco release crossover is a ground signal, (1 GS lever + 1 turnout lever operating both turnouts). Shunt signal to parcels bay is a ground signal, (1 GS lever). Middle siding is a ground signal, (1 GS lever + 1 turnout lever operating 1 turnout). P3 & P4 eastbound starters and both bracket signals with 2 arms, left arm being lower for the branch. Each post also carries a shunting arm (SA), (4 HS levers + 2 SA levers). East P4 points is a turnout lever, (1 turnout lever operating 1 turnout). Shunt from middle loop is a ground signal, (1 GS lever + 1 turnout lever operating 1 turnout). P1 & P2 starters are simple home/stop signals. Each post also carries a shunting arm (SA), (2 HS levers + 2 SA levers). NOTE: Branch services never leave from P1 & P2 so bracket signals not necessary here, all departures head down the main. Shunt from P1 loop is a ground signal, (1 GS lever + 1 turnout lever operating both turnouts). Cattle dock siding is a ground signal, (1 GS lever + 1 turnout lever operating 1 turnout). Yard exit siding is a ground signal, (1 GS lever + 1 turnout lever operating 1 turnout). Yard contains 2 hand-operated single turnouts and one crossover, (on the control panel this will be 3 turnout levers). P2 and P3 crossover is a turnout lever, (1 turnout lever operating both turnouts). P1 and P2 entry is a turnout lever, (1 turnout lever operating 1 turnout). Shunt from loco yard is a ground signal, (1 GS lever + 1 turnout lever operating 1 turnout). NOTE: Entry to loco yard is via P3/P4 controlled by shunt arms. Loco yard contains 2 hand-operated single turnouts and the turntable, (on the control panel this will be 2 turnout levers and a rotating track-selector switch). Main to P1 & P2 crossover is a turnout lever, (1 turnout lever operating both turnouts). Shunt from CS1 is a ground signal, (1 GS lever + 1 turnout lever operating 1 turnout). Shunt from CS2 & CS3 is a ground signal, (1 GS lever + 2 turnout levers operating 2 turnouts). NOT: Would it be more correct to have all 3 CS stem from one set of points connected to the running lines? So CS2 & CS3 turnout runs off CS1 rather than join the centre track of the 3-way? This removes the need for a 3-way and 1 ground signal. Branch home is a 2-arm bracket signal that controls access to P3 & P4, plus a shunting arm for goods trains to access the P1 loop, (2 HS levers + 1 SA lever + 1 turnout lever operating both turnouts). Main home is a 4-arm bracket stepped down from left to right to control entry to P1, P2, P3 and P4, plus a shunting arm for goods trains to access the P1 loop, (4 HS levers + 1 SA lever). NOTE: Above two sets of signals could be a gantry spanning the branch and main tracks. Advanced starters are both simple home or stop signals, (2 HS levers). Outer homes are both simple home or stop signals, (2 HS levers). TOTALS: 15 ground signals 8 single arm stop signals, two with shunting arms 2 twin arm bracket signals, left arm lower, both have shunting arms 1 twin arm bracket signal, right arm lower, with shunting arm 1 four arm bracket signal, rightmost arms stepped lower, with shunting arm 21 turnout levers Total of 60 levers in the frame. Now that seems a huge number for what is a modest town terminus. Agreed it would be 55 levers if the goods and loco yard points were hand operated but even so, this seems a lot. This excludes any separate locking levers. Have I calculated this wrong? The amount of signalling also seems excessive - is this really the BoT minimum? If my ground discs are all dummies I still have 45 levers... I'm not complaining, just a bit stunned!

Wow. Lots to digest. Thank you very much. I will study this and no doubt fire off a fusillade of questions. Bear in mind as well that the Nether Madder& Green Soudley Railway is a moderately under-financed independent line. It takes its original inspiration from John Ahern's Madder Valley, which I'm sure you know by now but has blossomed in my imagination into something akin to the Midland & South Western Junction making it a modest cross-country route that links significant industry or population centres "across the grain" of other competing bigger companies. So post WWI it will be a little haggard and worn, may still include some older signal types (on the Witts End branch at least) and may only just adhere to BoT rules... so cost cutting and "innovative solutions" (to use a horrid modern phrase) might be in use. More thoughts later.

Fawkes, hopefully. He was very cool. A couple of positive things I can be doing as I'm destroying a previous universe (muahaha). Task #1 is to design my new control panel mimic boards. I'll be using the same graphics as previously so the base idea is already in place. This leads neatly into task #2 which is signalling. I am one of those who is often mystified by this arcane witchery and black-magic so if anyone can offer input I would be delighted to learn. As a reminder here is the main station: First consideration - is the main signal box in the best location? Might it be placed better at the red ?? I've marked. I can see that the second position allows easier collection of all single line tokens from both branch and main. All the operational lines are also in front of the box and not on both sides, making for better visibility. All engines backing off trains from all platforms would draw up just east of the box before reversing onto shed, so that seems better for safety reasons as well as any verbal communications between the bobby and footplate crews. Second - is a small box at the far west marked in green needed? Thirdly - is the crossover I've marked in red really necessary? Fourthly - originally platforms 3 & 4 were terminal lines but the "fake" circuit that's been added for relaxation purposes now makes both these platforms through roads. When configured for a circuit platform 3 will be a west bound line only and 4 eastbound, except that I envisage branch passenger services would terminate at platform 4 making it bi-directional at least as far as approx the buffer stop of the engineers siding above it. When I run a push-pull or railcar on the branch its simpler but if the service is loco hauled, what would be more realistic - to uncouple the branch engine and run it around via the west crossover and platform 3 or put a fresh engine on the down end and send the up engine on shed after the next service has departed? I can see that the first option would need a fair bit more signalling while the second lets me rotate locos. Additionally I have considered making platform 4 into 4a and 4b so that an eastbound main service can stop alongside the buffer stop of the engineers siding (the one that runs past the engine shed) while a branch push-pull is already in the eastern end of the same platform face (platform 4b). The branch train would depart first. Alternatively a branch train could both arrive and depart into/from 4b before the 4a main line service continues east. This little operating quirk appeals to me a lot simply because its unusual. Signalling this working arrangement will need advice!

Well, not really! But I hope for phoenixes out of ashes in due course.

Track lifting commenced today at Witts End, and later at Puddlebrook Junction. Despite this looking terrible I am actually pleased I've got to this position and can learn from my mistakes.

And it has four-wheeled coaches... but not as we know them.

Problem is still on-going. The link you provided Andy has worked for a while but now is back to its old tricks. I have used the link you gave and merely gone back and forth to the threads I'm following based on that link but timeouts are back again.

I'll take a guess anyway... Its the LLLLLLMS.

For me this is the most beautiful modelled brickwork I've ever seen. I think only Pendon exceeds this and that mostly because of the sheer quantity of buildings, though Roye of course spent most of his adult life making those.

That is gorgeous and truly stunning work. I bet you're pleased with it!

That is really cute. Something similar with some added adverts and clutter would make a good newsagents kiosk on a station forecourt.

If their photos actually showed the missing parts or the descriptions mentioned them, then yes, I'd take more care. Such as not to buy the item. But lacking any factual guidance or comments a customer cannot be blamed for assuming the model is complete and clean.

This confuses me. It looks mighty simple and mighty clever at the same time, hence why I'm flummoxed. Can you give a diagram showing where the tracks would be your tangentially connecting (or even tan-genitally!) or use some spare track lengths to do ditto please?

This was at Warley in 2019. I took gazillions of photos and put them up on my Nether Madder thread.

A new build 850 in saddle tank form would be a very popular locomotive on preserved lines. And a Metro, and a 517 and a 633... There are just far too many small to medium power British loco classes that are extinct, and that's just listing a few GW ones, lots of other companies as well.

I'm a huge fan of the various pre-grouping IoW companies. Might you please be able to post more images of this route?

As I once said, "Someone threw the train away and kept the brightly coloured shiny packaging it came in."

Oh what fun C J Freezer would have had if he'd played with this software. Loving it Annie, nicely done.

Awesome. Now I feel much happier at my sawn up and reassembled Tri-Ang clerestories.

I thought they were teddy boys.