Martin S-C

I see, like this: That is going to make trains swing through some lovely sinuous curves as they arrive and depart. I'm imagining the view along the length of the station from the doorway is going to be quite attractive.

Having had a couple of G&Ts and thought about this I would prefer to keep the direct access from plat 1 loop to the branch for freights. However it would be possible to add a new turnout and length of track shown in red below. To me though that feels rather unprototypical, but it would allow me to have my cake and eat it. Also some small scenic changes. "Railway Terrace" has been angled back purely for the purposes of enhancing the Feng Shui in this area and I've added a pub and a shop, or maybe a chippy to keep the railway workers and their families happy. The end loading dock road has been swung over to give a weeny bit more room for carts to access the goods shed road there.

Yes, I agree. I have this idea that saving lots of walking up and down longish frames was one of the guiding principals of locating the levers. It does make sense to have all the levers necessary for a movement located close together. I made a mistake in my previous post. If I reverse the positions of the main and branch crossovers the only direct access to the branch would be from plats 3 and 4. This does mean that a branch goods will block the platform an arriving branch passenger might need to use. Just out of curiosity, if the branch set were stabled in the middle siding between plats 2 and 3, then when it was drawn out for its first trip of the day would it be shunted beyond the main home signal before setting back to plat 4, or down the branch to *its* home signal? I'm assuming the former, but wanted to check.

Hmm, interesting observations. I hadn't spotted those two options. I would imagine that at quiet times a loco running round would go beyond the home signal and be allowed back onto its train via that signal, but I also imagine that at busy times engines running around could use those other two options. I will see about shifting the branch crossover although where it is now allows a branch goods train to leave the platform 1 loop and go directly down the branch which I thought was a nice bonus. On the other hand having the ability to have two trains arrive at once is also useful, and that would mean having to shunt a branch train back, possibly to plat 4, or maybe the plat 2 release loop (in which case if a goods train were to depart from there I think I'd need a full size starting signal. I'll think about all that... thanks again.

Thank you so very much Nick, that is fantastic. I shall study this with care and get back to you with any questions.

May I ask for assistance with my particular track layout?

Returning to our earlier discussion about signalling, what I'd like to do next is arrange the point, signal and ground signal levers in the frame for the main terminus (Nether Madder) in the most efficient way possible. I've always assumed that the most common movements would be linked to levers near the centre of the frame or perhaps to that end of it where the signalman keeps his desk and train movement logbook so as to reduce shoe leather wear. Using the extremely helpful Nick C's plan as a guide (reproduced below) I have drawn up a new diagram that covers signals in red, ground discs or shunt arms in green and points in black. We will be working on the basis of a Midland Railway style of economic point lock where locks are incorporated into those facing turnouts that need them (passenger lines). AKA I can't be ars*d to buy and fit and operate point lock release levers. Am I on the right track so far? If I'm not then a stale bun or overripe fruit hurled from the front benches will get my attention. This gets us the second plan below. A few remarks might be necessary. The branch is operated mostly as a tramway. There is a fixed distant where Nick suggested an advanced starter should be and no outer home. There is going to be a "stop on request" halt just south of the road crossing south of the suburban villas to allow passengers to alight to go to destinations off the two roads that exit the model here. This stop is going to be called Coggles Causeway (yes, I intend to pick up and re-use most of the place names from the first NM&GS layout). That whole mini-scene is inspired by this beautifully restful image from the Wantage Tramway: In the above photo on my version the photographer might have just alighted from a train that has called at the request stop. The lime kilns siding will be unlocked by a key on the train staff at a small ground frame near the wooden platform of the small halt. This location is called Catspaw Halt and Catspaw Lime Kilns. The yellow marker just before the road crossing and first buildings of Witts End town is a stop board where down trains will come to a stand, whistle and them proceed at 5mph ringing their bell if they have one. Witts End station will have a very small frame comprising three point levers and one starting signal. If shunts are required onto the High Street beyond the station throat, a man on foot with a flag and whistle will police all such moves. There are "starting" signals at each end of the fiddle yard (which is called Green Soudley). I am still thinking about how to work the fiddle yard. If I am on my own then a set of levers to control the points from the main terminus would be very useful. A second frame at Green Soudley could be switched in when an operator for the fiddle yard is available. I think this is quite do-able on a model and would also be a quite interesting feature. On the main line, moving clockwise from Nether Madder terminus we have the home signal just before the branch junction, then an advanced starter and finally an outer home. Next, beside the road overline bridge a junction signal (right arm uppermost) to indicate access into the coal mine or along the main. Beyond Dean Sollers Colliery Platform a second junction arm (left arm uppermost) controls access at what I'll be calling Snarling Junction to give access to Green Soudley from either the up or down direction. There are also signals protecting the junction just west of it and north west. A further signal is the outer home for Green Soudley at the tunnel entrance below Witts End's coal siding which I think I'll model using one of those neat little brackets that are fixed to a retaining wall. As for signal post and ground signal positioning, since we're in a fantasy version of the Monmouth/Ross/Forest of Dean region I'd like to follow GW practice which I think means on the left of the track though I understand ground signals are usually placed on the side of the diverging route. Sometimes IIRC signals are placed on the inside of a curve to assist sighting and an example of this is the one on the right on the clockwise approach to the colliery. However I love being corrected when I'm wrong! I have shown on the plan the River Aight and the Puddle Brook, both of which had a short-lived appearance on the first layout, so apart from Armisford Mill I've been able to include all the original locations, albeit in reduced form in most cases. So two basic questions: 1) Are these all the signals I need? 2) How would one arrange the main frame at Nether Madder? Nick C's awesome signal and point lever plan: My rewrite of the above taking into account the simplified exits from the goods yard and carriage sidings: Please note that no trains from platforms 1 and 2 will access the branch. So from them we need only a start signal to the main plus a shunt signal to the carriage sidings, or for locos to access the main in order to then reverse to platform 4 to access the loco shed. From platforms 3 and 4 however we need starter signals for the main and the branch on both, plus shunt signals to access the carriage sidings, hence my massive bundle of coloured dots there. Another question though - how would a light engine move be controlled from platforms 3 or 4 to the loco shed? And... would there be starter signals in both directions from the colliers platform? I think bearing in mind how close the next signals are this would look a bit daft but I'm open to advice. Finally there might be a need to stable an engineering vehicle such as a gas lighting tank wagon on the short spur west of platform 3 for which I've added a ground signal. I just feel the extra flexibility may be useful. Most engineers vehicles will sit on the long siding west of the loco shed, or on the centre road between platforms 2 and 3, or simply off stage, but having the options modelled and available is a nice cherry atop an already well-iced cake.

Another couple of sessions work.

Removed the second transverse baseboard yesterday which finally allows me to walk upright along the length of the room. Its so much nicer having walk-around access to all the work now. When the next layout's boards are in place I will have a think about how to operate it. It will be possible to have the fiddle yard points all controlled from the main station and to assign the fiddle yard loops as either up or down direction. This will take some fiddling about and of course I'd need to get under there to actually take off trains and swap stock but it would mean I'd not need to get under there unless an operator was assigned to the yard or I need to swap stock around. There's the option of a fiddle yard box which could be switched out when not in use and opened when an operator is required there. That's certainly do-able in model form though of course an extra expense.

Yes, I was thinking of adding a caveat that the most realistic model railways I've ever seen photographs of are outdoor ones where the light is natural and the greenery is as well, and in scale with the model. There's often (with judicious use of what you choose to include in the background of your photo) that sense of no backscene at all but the wider world which you rarely get on an indoor model. You also tend to gain a sense of scale as the model scale increases, for obvious reasons. While there are many small and "Hobbit-like" little garden railways, sleepy with their overgrown track, diminutive locos and wagons, and overhanging greenery, one of my favourites is Nick Trudgian's "Southern Cross" which is simply wonderful in every sense. https://www.trains.com/grw/how-to/large-scale-layouts/the-southern-cross-railway/

This has never happened to me. Even looking at Pendon photographed by an expert and with every digital or mechanical post-production tool available I have never been convinced that what I'm looking at is anything but a miniature scene. People often remark that they thought it was the real thing but I think those are compliments - they didn't really think it was the real thing. Though this isn't actually the issue, we can all attempt to achieve as much or as little realism as we wish. We will never attain it but we can do things that leave others in awe or spellbound and attaining that result must be a real joy.

Yes, thanks for all of that James, a well thought-out post. We do all compromise somewhere, and we do all bring our own foibles to the hobby and I like that there is so much choice in what you do and how you do it. With my own hand loaded/unloaded arrangement this involves a need for a certain lack of detail and realism (e.g. no lines over sheets) and some handling of stock so therefore I have compromised with a tendency towards a more train-setty approach. I do have my LOWMAC wagon duplicated empty and carrying a traction engine as there was no way to depict a loose load with that and make it functional as a piece of rolling stock that had to run on the layout, but that is my only duplicated wagon and the loaded and empty versions will never be seen at the same time. As an aside I've never been a fan of wagons or coaches or even locos used in cameos at exhibitions such as the coal wagon with its doors dropped and a workman shovelling it out because I know for the whole two days I'm at that exhibition it will never move and that compromises to some extent what can be shunted into that siding. To me dioramas are distinct from operating model railways and I'd never want to mix the two. For me there are a variety of choices and criteria all modellers make and these vary depending on personal priorities and preferences. I classify these into two broad groups; "historical" and "technical". Historical choices are about where is my model supposed to be? When? And operated by which company(ies)? Those choices then bring with them others such as what the scenery around the layout should be like - Welsh hills, Derbyshire dales, Scottish highlands, Cornish coast or East Anglian fens, etc? And that brings with it the associated subjects of architecture, road vehicles, people's clothing, farming and industrial activity - even types of trees - and so on. Then the technical choices revolve around constraints on the model such as how much space do I have? What scale and gauge? RTR or kits? (aka what are my modelling skills?) Does the space available impact other choices due to limiting curve radii? Will it be a temporary layout or permanent? How do I control it? Steam/DC/DCC, etc. What couplings do I use? Will I place signals and if so, will they work or be dummies? And so on and so on. A lot of these choices are easily made or even unconsciously made but one of the processes I went through over the last year while agonising over why my enthusiasm for the NM&GSR had failed was listing out a lot of items that displeased me and more importantly why they displeased me. You could probably write a thesis on the psychology of railway modelling, though I'll leave that for someone else to do.

I think that means being scanned by ModelU and having your 4mm self placed on a platform? Thank you for those kind words. Even though all my 'carpentry' at the moment is destructive, its totally enjoyable because I know I'm dismantling a model railway I'd come to realise I'd never be happy with and can work towards replacing it with one I will be. It was an expensive lesson but I've learned it well. Today wasn't so damp and simply awful as it has been for a week so I worked until 9:00 o'clock tonight and made good progress. Green Soudley (aka my version of Madderport) was dismantled today and that was a shame, but I feel no remorse or loss. As the song lyric goes "The only way is up".

He built them all himself so perhaps his bodies had lugs or spigots that slotted into the underframes? Bit more therapy today...

And of course Annie, with her digital worlds has it better than all of us with loads that really are loaded and unloaded... kind of.

We have different imaginations at work. I am more than happy to hand-lift loads into and out of wagons on my railway and much of my wagon modelling (such as the interiors) is done with this practice in mind. Some of us sit and make chuff-chuff noises (in our heads maybe, some using our vocal chords) and some of us shunt empty or permanently loaded wagons around our model yards and both are fine. I just have an imagination that says its more fun if a wagon arrives in a yard loaded and leaves empty using the same model because in my imagination the little metal people have become animated and done it. My coal loads have steel washers and nuts glued underneath so I can lift them out with a magnetic "grabber stick" without handling the model. This also makes loaded coal trains significantly heavier than empties. I think a large part of our hobby is escapism and playing trains this way is one path I take to escape. Of course covered vans are easy But I often lament the lack of removable roofs to my cattle wagons which prevents me adding a load of livestock temporarily. I do plan to make small rectangular bases of "dirty floor" with a cluster of cows, pigs or sheep attached that will slot into the pens of my cattle dock so that a "cargo" can be put there to be taken away after the cattle vans depart. We had a thread on here a while ago about sheeted opens and I have a set of sheets made up like paper hats that I just push over the wagons. Some have anonymous lumps under them to represent some bulky load and others sag. Still others are pitched to slot over a sheet rail. For these and for any future horse feed load I just don't use lines. They'd be run over the sheet as per the great photo Stephen supplied but the lines would end at the top of wagon body side.

There is also a tendency for photos to 'burn out' white and light colours in photographs, even modern emulsions (pre-digital) had that problem to some extent so a pale grey object can look much whiter in photographs. Even so, in that image you can see the doors are dropped open and the interior is white as well. For a long while I could not work out the perspective of the dark shape, its alignment looked so odd, but its the shadowed interior of the wagon with one corner angled back as the light falls on the white floor interior. EDIT: Looking at the sheeted feed wagons I think I could make up a removable load to represent that - a block of balsa wood that is a loose push-fit into the wagon with the load represented by a curved balsa shape covered with a wagon sheet, some lines and some grassy material sticking out along the sides and ends.

Whoa. That lime wagon is extremely white. I may have to revisit my weathering techniques.

The GWR had provender wagons as well all despatched from their centralised horse feed depot at Didcot. But that was because they were a huge company with all manner of centralisation. I don't see much use for such wagons by a private owner since horse feed can be grown almost anywhere and is cheap to transport locally. My guess is the mention of hay on the wagon is just a bit of canny advertising to show what other goods the company can supply.

One presumes the hay wasn't carried by rail!

Finished. Just a very simple quick job on these with most being fairly clean or with light wear.

End door hinges, hinge guides and strengtheners replaced, some interior ironwork added and painted, interiors painted and weathered. Now just the exteriors to do. Trying some variations of interior wood colour on these as well, e.g. very grey top left and yellowish/newish bottom right.

It was the interiors I enjoyed most. I'm a sucker for a good dose of the Gothic with lashings of dark wood panelling thrown in. It really is a splendid place. Its been a couple of decades since I went but there was a goodly amount of signage and notice boards about the technology there back then.

Was that the cab ride arranged for George William Lord Armstrong, on his return journey to Cragside?

...and I forget what famous victory he scored had there.