Lacathedrale

I don't suppose there's any new info on this afoot?

Same spot in the modern era?

Well, certainly the original idea was to site it somewhere off the LCDR city line south of the river, north of Borough Road. The SER built a curve (now used by Thameslink) to connect their mainline from Cannon Street and London Bridge onto the Chatham's city line. The LCDR also proposed a spur at this point (and no further information appears to be forthcoming) - so my original theory was that this would lead to a station out of the river. The more I think about it - the station canopy, the operational patterns, the use of a Ludgate Hill-like scene as a cameo leads me to think about citing it north of the river, if not as a direct depiction of then at least heavily influenced by and themed as a hybrid of Ludgate Hill and Holborn Viaduct. If not verbatim, maybe oriented eastward between the Old Bailey and St Pauls? This would still support LSWR and MR terminating services, as well as a high level of parcels/newspaper traffic by proximity to General Post Office, and high profile trains from the city into the Kent Coast. Paternoster Square Warwick Square St Martin's Fleet Lane

In my mind this was always the remit of the thread, my OP talks about the lines from Kensington Olympia to Clapham Junction and down to Central Croydon - it's just that the Widened Lines and Metropolitan Extension are such rich pickings that they have been sidelined.

If anyone reading this thread is interested, the latest issue of Backtrack has part one of a multi-part series on 'crossing london' and the Widened Lines. As far as I know the only shot that's not already available from image searching online is one of Holborn Viaduct of which I have produced a small cropping of in my layout thread. The remainder of the article however, appears to be very well written (though I imagine re-treading much of the wonderful information supplied in this thread already). I took a journey on a section of the overground over the weekend that I've previously not encountered - Acton Central to Willesden Jct, to Gospel Oak and then onto the line towards Barking to Crouch End. I'll do my own research of course, but it does seem to have a very conjoined pre-group history: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_London_line The eastermost section created by what was a constituent of the GER, the southern section crossing the thames by the LSWR (south acton to Richmond), the NLR to Broad street and the subsequent electrification of the commuter route by the LNWR between Broad Street to Richmond. It also crossed what I suppose we could nominatively call a cross-london pre-group service in the Bakerloo!

Thirty years before my era, but no wonder the sub-surface and tube lines were so successful (at least with patronage, if not fiscally)! Engraving of Ludgate Hill by Gustav Dore published 1872 The following is a cropping of a photo from the latest issue of Backtrack Jan 2020 credit to the author's collection - which shows the water tank in situ above the engine shed, whose doors appear to have been removed when it was cut off from the running lines by the extension of platform 1. The glazed brick building to the right of the engine shed, behind the the platform awning appears to be original but the buildings in-front created during the extension when the pilot road was filled in. I must admit, I prefer the feathered edges to the original canopy compared to this rather more austere cut-away version. It does highlight just how narrow platform 1 would have been, if you imagine that platform 1 awning non existing and a running line behind - probably not much more than eight feet. The leftmost 'platform' is actually a wooden gangway off the end of Platform 6, that led out from the station to the signal box pictured earlier in this thread. Holborn viaduct some time after electrification and conversion to colour-light signals While we're on the more theoretical than practical matters, as per @TJ52's prompting it may be time to start thinking about a name - I am very much open to ideas. Being themed so heavily around the Blackfriars/St. Pauls/Ludgate Hill/Holborn Viaduct it would seem as though a moniker or portmanteau may be appropriate. Roads in the Ludgate Hill/Holborn Viaduct area also provide rich pickings: 'St George's', 'Bishops Court', and 'Fleet Lane' , as do the churches of St Sepulchre's, St Bartholomew's, and St Martin's. Any suggestion gladly taken, tho I could imagine the layout still being named 'A Slice of Edwardian London' even if the station gets a name All the best,

Thirty years before my era, but no wonder the sub-surface and tube lines were so successful (at least with patronage, if not fiscally)! Engraving of Ludgate Hill by Gustav Dore published 1872

My work situation means that at the moment I'm only home 2-3 days per week, so this flurry of progress will no doubt ebb until the next break. Not only am I now waiting on the Peco double slip to be available (though I've thought about temporarily fitting a code 75 streamline slip in its stead as an interim measure) - but I won't be home to even recieve a delivery of the remaining trackwork until the weekend after next, let alone do anything. Hopefully the progress so far has shown it is not the lack of will which would see a slowdown in the coming month. @t-b-g there is a void in the viaduct wall just where the tracks separate, so yes I think a girder or equivalent there would be sufficient justification. Ultimately it is required to bring the platform roads closer together and maintain plausible platform width. The helicopter view no doubt accentuates this compromise but I hope and assume that from normal viewing distances the compromise will be less egregious. @TJ52 - loving that shot of Charing cross. I think I'm going to need to go with wooden platforms - given both Blackfriars and Charing Cross had them I really like the signal box gantry too - I think this would be an effective view break over the exit, although either way I'm going to need to put a large building on that side to balance the scene (given the large train shed on the left side). It's right on the tip of my tongue, why there are discs on the lower signals - any helpful reminders? (also, is that the ghost of the Oxo tower behind the leftmost braket?) I wonder if it might be appropriate to have a road level entrance similar to Spa Road station along the front of the layout, while the main station and forecourt is off scene left? It would help ground the layout in space and time very easily. I am DEFINITELY going to include the 'South Eastern Railway ARCHES xxxxxx SHOP FRONTS TO BE LET' sign adjacent what looks like an open-sided cafe of sorts. It would be lovely to reproduce this view at some point in future - I've got a Hattons Genesis 6w full brake on order, gosh knows why the train picture has two.

Shots down in the Metropolitan Line extension are pretty rare, I'm informed this is a loco coming up the 1:39 gradient at Snow Hill towards Ludgate Hill - apprentley these open areas were used to try to brighten things up in what I believe Ahrons has described as 'Stygian abyss'. Presumably the GNR 0-6-2T or 0-6-0ST is at the back of this train, assisting from Farringdon St. up the incline.

Not to worry, I only pivoted the plank to get a shot - it's my window-sill and shooting into the light from a relatively dark office wouldn't have gone well. Now safely ensconced. Left hand viaduct board is now carpentry-complete: I used this opportunity to sketch out the platforms and platform roads, here's a helicopter view showing the skew approach - I want to reduce parallel lines as much as possible, but decided that the train-shed should probably be square-on to make what will already be my largest structural scratchbuild ever, slightly more achievable: This is a plan view of the end of the board. I'm pretty sure platform 1 should be right/north - but overall gives an idea of how I'm looking to break this section up- the concourse alignment was when I was thinking of a skew, but I think now I'll knock it back to a straight line. The train shed covers the whole area down to the horizontal lines, after which platform canopies continue, before petering out to the platform ends with signals, water towers and such - this should visually break the layout into thirds. The water tank/pilot shed building against the backscene and little forward of the canopy ends - I resisted the urge to add more pointwork and complexity here: I would really appreciate if anyone could point out any radical flaws - I'm going to let this sit for a few days before doing anything else.

And to reassure all it's not all just carpentry: SE&CR 751 hauling a dark lake birdcage set. Idiosyncractic, but I don't much mind. A P-Class would be much more appropriate, this one (with the help of some Roxey Mouldings kits) will hopefully form part of the Greenwich Park 'sandwich' set: SE&CR 753 P-Class - the Chatham's wrong-footed attempt to copy the Brighton's Terrier.

Thank you for the encouragement @drduncan - I've built track in 2mmFS, TT, EM, O-MF and S7 so I'm fairly comfortable with the idea - to be honest however it's mostly the wiring that worries me! I think an intermediate goal will be to use Peco Bullhead for the standard turnouts and double slip, and Peco Streamline for the crossing and threeway fitted as a temporary measure, then at a later date build and re-lay those two by hand and retro-fit after initial testing is complete. So here's a question for the thread - the geometry in my XtrkCAD plan is put together roughly from the correct parts, and the physical equivalent has been derived from the actual templates - so there is a little variance. As such, I'm not transposing the plan identically onto the boards. I have extended the curve from the throat to the edge of the baseboard, and laid a steel rule on my original alignment. The modified version in the previous post (where I swap the pilot siding for a pilot shed) splits the difference by essentially moving the rule forward a couple of inches to smooth out the corner. Either way, here is today's progress - both boards structurally complete. There are far fewer cutouts on the platform board, since all the track is plain. I am planning on adding isolating sections onto the tips of each platform road (default: on) so in future I could convert the layout to DC operation without much fuss. That seems doubtful, given the modern locos and all the DCC chips I've got - but it'll be nice to build it in ahead of time Platform board construction complete, reviewing lines of the viaduct front.

My understanding (and the author goes to length to explain in detail) is that it is all pre-group railways which own trackage going into (and across) London.

Dated before the Thameslink work: This scene is almost completely changed, other than the rightmost building (apparently this was the bridge featured in Oliver!) I actually did a walking tour around this area at the weekend and it was surprising how much of 'old London' lives on behind these glittering facades in the city... I didn't notice that horse drawn carriage, @Mikkel - you do like a horse-drawn carriage or two, don't you ? The water tank is long gone, but the combination tower/shed is still in situ in what looks like blackened red brick, a stark contrast to the white retaining walls. The building behind the railfans is also now a sodden black, compared to the shining white of the 1905 shot I posted earlier. Access to the loco shed seems to not be compatible with the platform layout, which is true - the outer platforms were extended to take EMUs. Very interestingly, even after the extension of the platforms due to the congested throat and site layout, Platforms 2 and 3 were blocked if 1 or 4 held an eight car train. The only parallel working that was possible was a departure from 1 or 4 with an arrival into 5 - if you designed a model railway with that kind of issue, you'd be chastised I'm sure! The BR solution was to demolish platform 3&4, leaving only 1, 5 and 6 - even then, apparently the EMUs had to kiss the buffers to not block the throat. Lastly, the signal box for HV (pictured in the 80's still in SR colours, it seems!) was straddling the Metropolitan extension down to Moorgate and Farringdon, but I can imagine pivoting this 180 degrees to sit over the exit tracks of the layout instead:

@Nearholmer - here you go: The 16mi NLR moved more freight than the whole of the LBSCR, thanks to its london dockyard connections! As an aside, is this the GNR goods depot, behind Farringdon?

I don't think you've got that wrong, Waterloo was added onto with organic growth from the 1850's until 1899 ish - three stations-in-stations with their own booking offices, platform numbers in common, etc. and apparently quite ramshackle - it was rebuilt wholly after then - so it might not be outrageous to assume these are some of the original platform/signal sites, grandfathered in despite the rule breaches? It seems the water tower in that last photo was actually an engine shed, I wondered if the caption in that photograph was wrong, but this photograph shows the doors open, with what looks like some wagons inside, circa 1913: Holborn Viaduct circa 1913 I wonder if it might be practical to swap the pilot/platform sidings on my plan to include this little odd cameo - slightly re-jigging the platform board gives this: For reference, this was the original design: The more I think about it, the small overall roof with the left hand board end being almost wholly filled by a massive station hotel is a no-brainer, so really the only choice is putting the loco pocket at the end of the platform, or in a Victorian-era relic of a pilot shed! I think I am however, going to bend the lower road into the board so I can run the 'front' of the viaduct all the way to the left hand edge of the platform board, - otherwise there will be a weird 'edge of the world' drop off. And jJust to prove I've done more than mess around on the internet, the platform board is built, and I've added endcap strengtheners and the veneer piece to the throat board in the meantime: Both boards together for the first time, not too shabby!

I have some more information to contribute. By 1913 or so, the LB&SCR and SE&CR had the most carriages per loco - probably to due their commuter nature, and the preponderance of passenger traffic on their lines - they were in the bottom third of raw passenger numbers and in the bottom half of passengers-per-mile. Though not directly related, another wonderfully atmospheric photograph: With regard to Ludgate Hill, LCDR (and then SE&CR( boat trains were split between City and Victoria until 1916, the former having tank engine haulage from Herne Hill to Holborn Viaduct, through Ludgate Hill (whence the services were extended into HV when it opened), and the latter with the mainline express engines working. In 1887 there were both morning and evening departures to Queenborough and Dover, as well as services to the newly opened Maidstone and Ashford lines and fast services to the Kent Coast. The majority of services however, passed through Ludgate Hill and down the Metropolitan Extension , on whose curve Holborn Viaduct low-level (nee Snow Hill) was built, towards Moorgate St and the GNR, rather than terminating at the upper level station. Spiers & Pond were the LCDR's contracted refreshment room and hotel company, and took the lease on the Holborn Viaduct station hotel. Upon the opening of Blackfriars (nee St. Pauls) in 1886, Ludgate Hill was mostly redundant, a rebuild completed in 1912 removed the obselete mainline platforms and slew the track alignments to widen and lengthen the local platform. The author suggests that passenger services to Farringdon ceased in 1908 and Moorgate St in 1916, Holborn Viaduct Low Level closing in 1916 too - and passenger services down the LCDR Metropolitan extension ceased until the reopening of Thameslink in 1988. This seems outrageous to me, but then I grew up in the 90's and so Thameslink was already a thing! At the Joint Committee (1899) Holborn Viaduct itself was already something of a backwater, with fewer than five thousand people using it per day (compared to eighty thousand at Liverpool St) and newspaper and parcels traffic dominating. To quote Ahrons of Holborn Viaduct in his indomitable tone: There stood at one of the platforms one of those particular rabbit hutch carriages of the Chatham - empty. Not a solitary human being was seen until after about five minutes a particularly mournful porter put in an appearance" . By 1922 there were just eight mainline departures per day, including Kent Coast named 'City Express' trains - which despite the dismal prospects still put on in all style, a Pullman first-class tea car. There is more information about Holborn Viaduct, but all of it now lives in the annals of modern era (aka Grouping)! Thank you so much to @TJ52 for sending me some wonderful magazine scans with this information in longform.

Thanks to some wonderful scans from @TJ52 - now I won't feel so bad about extending those platforms right up to the bare minimum width - behind that middle signal can't be much more than 5 feet wide! The LCDR's Ludgate Hill was the original terminus in 1866 - a tiny, cramped statin of two island platforms serving the MR, GNR, LSWR and itself. This was superseded by Holborn Viaduct later - but doesn't it sound familiar? Platform faces at Holborn Viaduct (the replacement were a mere 400 feet long - only a foot longer than mine are in 1:76! The platforms were shaded by a ridged train shed of iron, glass and wood for some distance, and then individual platform canopies. I was wondering how to hide the gap in the backscene, only to find that Holborn Viaduct had a Signal Box on a gantry over the lines! The Dover boat trains would be split and re-joined at Herne Hill, the Victoria section using large express locos and the City section with a tank loco. Here's Holborn Viaduct from a similar position in SE&CR days - on the far right is No. 247 - a D-class, I think! Holborn Viaduct's position as a backwater by the 1900's where newspapers and parcels were about equal to passenger figures, and Cannon Street (ex-SER) and Blackfriars (ex-LCDR) had stolen all the spotlight is very much the idea I proposed earlier in this thread - I'm glad to see it has some historical precedent too. It might be taking the simily too far to include the dive down into the Widened lines, but this shot does show the station throat and trainshed, as I could imagine this layout having. The water tower would make a great visual break in the backscene (where the Tim Horn board has an arch producting half an inch into the scenic section). Incidentally behind the smoke and soot of the J50 powering up the bank into Ludgate Hill, there is an ex-SE&CR C-class shunting parcels (the rest of the train is under platform 2's island canopy:

Any reason why the Q's are harder, other than being smaller?

I have finished the construction of the right hand board, as it pertains to carpentry at least! Note the shaped cutouts, and the outline of the vertical risers. The leftmost risers needed those blocks in order that they could be fastened (since directly underneath is the TH endcap). I also have finished the viaduct - the surface is 5.5mm ply from Homebase (so bad, in comparison to the material Tim uses for his baseboards!) and I was planning to skin the front and back in the same, having lengths cut explicity for that purpose, but in any event some spare 3mm ply in my workshop was much easier to form to the curves. I cut voids where it would be possible to fit recessed scenes under arches or doorways, where they don't overlap cutouts for point motor access/etc. The viaduct is fully self contained, and will be scenicked and track laid separately With regard to planning, @PMP @t-b-g - the scissors was planned to appear on the curved corner piece, but would just introduce the same issues - another instance of wrong line working, just further out. That said, I'm not sure your solution fixes it, other than providing the FY operator a railway mechanism (rather than hand-of-God) to restage the stock? That said, I've sketched it in below (the additional tiny line on the left of the FY is due to the unforeseen extension of the FY baseboards to 18") Given the choice (and I'm not entirely sure I'm not missing something) I think I'd prefer a self-contained scissors in the curve. Until that curve was built and the scissors laid, it's true that I would only have four inbound trains before a reshuffle would be required - but it would mean all FY tracks are accessible by all visible tracks, negating the need to make mutually exclusive changes to the FY - this is done using peco geometry, but this is something I would definitely hand-lay to retain the parallelism of the curve: The unit is/would be scenically isolated from the station board as its own cameo, with a scene similar to this: Maybe the hidden advantage of your ( @PMP) idea is that with the curved point and double slip, the 'down' FY tracks can be shunted wholly on the curve, rather than having to enter into the station area? Speaking of Greenwich Park, I am specifically going to model the push-pull LCDR sets with the P-class sandwiched between for this layout A dear thanks to @TJ52 for the scans, I'm going to spend some time digesting them and will update this thread (or the 'pre-grouping across the thames' thread!) with info gleaned. Cheers!

Hi @CF MRC, Just wondering if you've seen this photo before? From an article on SECR/GNR traffic in 1906, in the Trains Annual 1965:

Thanks @Nearholmer and @TJ52 ! I've posted some juicy info on the SE&CR/GNR lines in this comment on the research thread - a fun example is the planned-but-not-built LCDR spur opposite the curve which allows trains to climb from the SER metals outside London Bridge into Blackfriars. This is the site of my notional station, I think!

I have the article and though I'm sure there would be no practical issue with copyrights in reproducing I think it would be more in the spirit of the board to summarise. To get you in the mood, an uncredited photo of London Bridge at the turn of the 20th century: As of 1906: The LCDR and SER would be obliged to match each other's services onto GNR destinations Example routes were: Victoria to High Barnet and to Enfield (ceasing in 1907) Woolwich Arsenal to Wood Green and Alexandra Palace (ceasing in 1907) Victoria to Moorgate St. (ceasing in 1916) where three platforms are dedicated for MR/SECR/GNR trains, SE&CR Q/Q1 classes haul a high proportion of local trains Rebuilt ex-SER Q1-class 0-4-4T is motive power on Woolwich Arsenal to Wood Green Though there is some SE&CR stock, the majority is nondescript 6w ex-LCDR/ex-SER coach sets - as old as the 1860's. 1840's carriages were still in use as departmental stock Angerstein Wharf branch motive power may have been Cudworth I-class - an 1855 vintage 0-6-0! No evidence of electrification at LB at this date On the adjacent LBSCR, Billington's B2-class would be pulling an equivalent brighton express with 6w stock - inner loop services handled by Terrer's like Tooting, Brixton, and Clapham Wainwright D-class 4-4-0 would be pulling the Folkestone to Cannon Street express Borough Market junction one of the busiest sections of track in the UK at this date The curve up from the SER main onto the LCDR metals (whose name I've forgotten) may have had a parallel spur from the LCDR (presumably towards Waterloo?) - which was never built a prime site for my layout! No electrified trams yet, by Blackfriars Kirtley (nephew of MR's Kirtley) M-class ex-LCDR 4-4-0's may have been seen at St Pauls At this stage, remnants of disused stations (Borough Road glimpsed down the LCDR line towards Elephant & Castle, and the old Blackfriars terminus, now used for goods) In LCDR Days St. Pauls (i.e. Blackfriars) was an important station for continental, akin to Cannon St. and Charing Cross. Ludgate Hill would see SE&CR and GNR trains, with the LSWR terminus from a Wimbledon (via Merton Abbey or Haydon's Rd) train, pulled by Drummond 0-4-4T's. Snow Hill renamed Holborn Viaduct Low-Level in 1912, only accessible via main Holborn Viaduct station. Midland Railway 780-class condensing tanks would be running across the widened lines on goods Great Northern 0-6-0 saddle tanks would act as bankers up from the widened lines to Ludgate Hill, even for passengers Teak liveried Met line trains would be seen in the tunnels Relevant to the discussion above with that older picture of Farringdon, the right hand side is noted as Met goods yard (via GNR and MR) Exiting at Kings Cross Metropolitan up to the Suburban platform and before Gasworks tunnel, we can see Ivatt Atlantics, East Coast Joint Stock, the transformation from 2-2-2 and 2-4-2 to 4-4-2's is complete. Precious little on GNR and MR services southbound, but nonetheless ripe pickings! Thank for the recommendation!

@KeithHC - it's not out of the question, certainly - one of my thoughts initially was to build out Central Croydon (with an identical footprint/throat, albeit in a cutting and 10mi south) which would have been almost entirely served by the AC electrics - I think I'll earmark that one for the future. Terry, that would be wonderful. My address is willayerst@gmail.com - I've seen the Lost Railways of London book online for less than £1 plus postage, so I don't think it makes sense to spend and effort dropping it off though - so I've bought it!

Day two has seen some positive progress: Risers fitted to the viaduct Risers are 19mm x 69mm pine cut to length, screwed into the viaduct surface. Evidence of the first alignment blocks is shown adjacent the scenic exit riser - this is to permit horizontal fixing of the riser to the layout board, since underneath is the Tim Horn endcap mitre joint. The Tim Horn baseboard structurally complete, apart from the top fascia