Lacathedrale

You're exactly right, they are the LSWR 3Subs - the very first kind and very distinctive. I looked at that thread when I was deciding whether it was possible to try this and was suitably impressed. Frankland is the layout name. Unfortunately, a little too distinctive and none of the subsequent 3Sub units looked like them much at all. I've found that Mike King may have drawings, but I don't know how to get hold of him as his email address bounces from the Southern Electric group.

I've been taking notes from a variety of places for timelines - and between electrification the post-war period really not a huge amount would have changed in terms of station layout, rolling stock or operation. The war meant that olive green would still likely predominate into the mid 40's. A fly on the wall would see a gradual trend away from 3Subs cobbled together from ex-SECR coaching stock, augmentations with new/mismatched trailers to become de-facto 4Subs, to purpose built 4Subs and then eventually bulleid-designed flat-front 4Subs. I wouldn't plan to model all these eventualities, but if I model the layout in a late 30's condition then it can reach both forward and backward with relative ease - either to bring the layout forward to the eve of electrification and have a Q or H-class pulling a bogie birdcage set around, or push it back enough to see the first 4Epbs (although by this point I think it would be pretty hard to justify anything in SR olive!). It is quite bizarre to look at the mainline and see an LBSCR D1 pulling a train of half a dozen six wheelers as a standard train between London Bridge and Norwood Junction just two years before Caterham had a full EMU service: @Oldddudders has spoken of 'berthing in 'hole-in-the-wall' places, compared to @bécasse's advice that Caterham never needed stock berthed - but I have found a picture which at least generally supports the former, even if only as a lay-over and thirty five years beyond my time period: It's alot more challenging to get information on the freight workings of the period, my only information is that anecdotal: The use of 'tank locos' only on the branch (as a comment on his surprise of the provision of a turntable at Caterham in the 1900 rebuild - presumably not aware of the troop train requirements?) - maybe only in relation to the passenger traffic? With the closure of the ex-SER shed at Purley in 1928 the next nearest shed was New Cross Gate (LBSC) and then Norwood in 1937 A C2X was allocated from Norwood Shed in 1952 until the branch's cessation of freight traffic in 1964, and the Bulleid DM 11001 opereated the branch freight in 1950. There are a number of photos of the 0-6-4T J-class around Purley on fitted freight workings and the 0-6-0 K-class were Annoyingly, I can't find my list of Purley shed loco allocations - I have gone through lots of my books!

Hi chaps, I do apologise if this is the wrong area, but I'm coming to my wit's end. For wider context if anyone else is viewing this thread, I'm looking for drawings of the multiple units run by the Southern Railway which aren't the up until the introduction of the rebuilt, flat-front 4Subs, i.e. these: (depicted in use as a departmental vehicle, not in revenue service) I would like to either scratchbuild a couple of these (with or without new-build augmentation trailers) or reach out to Allan at Worsley to have them etched - but finding a drawing seems nigh impossible. I understand there are innumerable variations of design so I would be happy with drawings of any of the 3Subs on standard 62' underframes that predate the 'new' 4Sub builds by Bulleid in 1941, but which are not the original 45' LSWR-stock. I've reached out to the Southern Electric group with no reply, and all of their recommended purveyors of drawings (all bouncing back emails). Any thoughts or help are appreciated - or redirection to another forum, person, location, etc.

@bécasse - http://www.semgonline.com/headcodes/eheadcodes/eheadcodes08.html and http://www.semgonline.com/headcodes/eheadcodes/eheadcodes05.html show some different headcodes for the earlier periods: Alpha 1939: H-two dots: London Bridge - Caterham via Forest Hill L-bar: Caterham - Purley empties, Victoria - Caterham via Streatham Common and Purley P: Purley - Caterham Numeric 1939: 80: Vic-Purley, 80-bar: Purley-Caterham (ECS) 81: London Bridge-Caterham 3: Purley-Caterham The post-1960's page shows what you have described for numeric numbers, albeit with the addition that 3 became 43 for Purley-Caterham (seemingly not used if operated as you described), but nothing on the 'S' alpha-code - presumably because it's outside the timeline? Also (strangely) I've found conflicting evidence of the 3sub joining/splitting at Purley - some sources show 6 to Tattenham and 3 to caterham (going as far as to describe a riot at Purley during a blizzard when one Caterham service was cancelled and the following redirected to Tattenha Corner) and the others showing the inverse. I'd be inclined (based on your evidence also) to assume the former. With regard to your comments around the use of a 2EPB strengthener for Tattenham Corner trains, and no need whatsoever to stable trains at Caterham, I am somewhat confused that the central section would continue to reserve a headcode exclusively for the use of ECS workings between Purley and Caterham - do you have any insight on that? Lastly, I've read that from 1939 to '49 there was only one train an hour on the Caterham branch, presumably a shuttle service - but which is directly contradicted by the headcodes provisioned in 1939 above? EDIT: I do thank you all very much - I think (if it's OK with everyone who is part of this discussion) - further conversation around the Caterham branch and it's operation I'll post to my main planning thread here: And keep this thread for discussion of the signalling and interlocking? Cheers!

After looking around I just can't bring myself to pay over £120 for a model I'm going to have to cannibalise, and while I have put an eBay notification up for an express-parcels 101, in the meantime I have put a pre-order in for five of the Tomix TM-17 motorised chassis. They have a 90mm bogie centre so aren't perfect but only a couple of mil out for both the 4sub (slightly too wide) and 4epb (slightly too close together) - that's a compromise I think I'm happy to make. It does remain to be seen how the wheels will work eased out, reprofiled or replaced, hopefully I can feed back into this thread with any findings and/or cries for help. This is the specific URL, however you will need to register before adding to your cart and checking out, in order for the ability to complete a pre-order to appear in the checkout stage: https://1999.co.jp/eng/10311069

Thanks all - it seems that a single 121 is £120ish, and a dual-motor 101 is £150ish - so probably better off with the latter? Is it all the two-car Bachmann-farish 101's that are dual powered, i.e. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/N-Gauge-Graham-Farish-371-505-Class-101-Two-Car-DMU-BR-Network-Souheast-BNIB/264669589820?epid=1367014951&hash=item3d9f89713c:g:a8QAAOSwJVJeb7ms too ? or just the parcels unit?

What's the wheelbase and bogie centres for the 121? @justin1985 kindly advised that there are some Tomix mechanisms up for preorder on 1999.co.jp. The bogie centres for non-LSWR 4Sub and 4EPB are 44' and 46'6" respectively - the TM-17 mechanism has 90mm bogie centres as near as damnit, for £20 - although it does have most of the mechanism and drive train under the solebar, so presumably would preclude authentic underframe detail - with VAT and a handling fee for a pair equating to £30 per motor vehicle plus the cost/time for reprofiling the wheels? On the other hand, something that I can just drop in replacement axles into might be worth the extra. Is there a specific model number from Bachmann-Farish which has the dual motor bogies?

No problem! It seems the Caterham Power Station ceased generation in 1928, so could in theory form part of a layout that was balancing on the tip-toe of electrification (finalised with the final day of steam passenger service in March 1928) and a scenic break. There are several allusions to rail-served industries in the Middleton Press book (which I was scouring for various sliding timeline points) that don't have rail connections - in addition to the above, the water works at Kenley was very much not rail connected, with only an adjacent goods yard and a nearby rail-served factory that could potentially be earmarked. 'Kenley Depot' is also shown, but the only aerieal photos and maps I can find mark it as a local authority refuse disposal site! It's not a big surprise to consider there was significant wartime traffic on the Caterham branch given it's proximity to Caterham Barracks, but quite another to see a 10-coach train pulled by a Q-class in 1960 captioned '08:40 troop train from Caterham to Brecon'!! Here are some more rare photos I've managed to dig up - soon after doubling (Caterham Power station's chomney is visible, and the six-wheeled 'caterham' close-coupled sets being piloted out of the No. 2 down siding The opposite view gives a clear shot towards the goods yard, the vast stores of coal to the left - cut off by railway tracks either side - what could they be for? Storage before manually shuttling them down to the coal merchant at the entrance to the good yard (where there were even more staithes?) Some twenty or thirty years later, both platforms host a 3Sub. It will be another five years before the SR decide to augment the 3Subs with additional cars directly, and it won't be until after nationalisation - another twelve years - that until all the services running to Caterham are 4Subs. This view a few years later shows the 'bookend' scene of the layout that would be attempted beyond the station building, those on the left being low relief against the end of the layout.

Keith @Grovenor thank you very much. I have started going through your take and hopefully I can ask a few questions when it's a bit more settled in my mind? While doing research for the model side of this station, I came across a couple of shots of the accident described earlier: As this occured in 1945 it's roughly concurrent with our signal plan. The west of the station (side against which the signal box is located) is wooded as shown above, and so presuambly the disc signal shown is No. 24, with the approximate location of the photographer being between the down sidings, indicated by the pink arrow on this cropped aerial photo:

Hi Terry, to be honest this was more a thought exercise that I was hoping to share with RMweb rather than a direct plan for a layout I'd be attempting. It's wonderful to do the research and gain wider context and understanding - and that's half of the pleasure for me. HV has been on the back burner since it's been 'imminent' that Peco were to release their double slip since midway through last year (?). I'm debating the relative merits of using standard Code 75 stuff temporarily to get the layout running, or giving in and hand lay the missing parts of the formation myself! I'll post a short update in that thread with the latest.

Perfect both, thank you. Nigel, thank you so much - for the standard 62'6" SR chassis with a 46'6" bogie centre and 8' wheelbase, it looks like I'm out of luck - the TM-09 and TM17 are either sold out, or close to Farish prices. Is it feasible to construct a motor bogie from components (for us mere mortals, that is :)) - I have a Unimat so effectively a lathe, mill and a drill press - but all the gear and no idea...

I've been looking at this a bit more, and just wanted to be sure, that: Signal 2 governs all shunting movements from the down main into the whole station (i.e. all possible routes from that point - No. 2 road (via 18 and 21), No. 2 siding (via 18) and No 1 siding (via 6) Signal 10 similarly govern shunting movements from the up main into both the up siding and No. 1 road (via 21 and 22) , the No. 2 road (via 21), and the No. 1 down siding (via 9 and 6)

Out of curiousity, it seems that the 2010ish Farish dual-motored 101 was the default donor for powered bogies for multiple units of all kinds, particularly when much of the stock was on clearance - but now I can't find any for less than about £100 even used - is there a current recommendation that's more affordable?

Lovely stuff, Ian - can you advise how you're punching out NS with the steel? I've recently come across a video where a chap is punching out foil (Rather than NS) with the back end of a drillbit over an eraser to get rivets - but this seems like it's a little more involved!

I think you're right @4069 - this is a snapshot from the 1912 OS-grid map - to the right of 'S.P' there are two dots - maybe the two gantry masts? Both outer tracks are headshunts for the sets of sidings so unlikely to have signals? Maybe however due to the clearances the masts were oriented as such? @RailWest - The old plan is very impressive, and the most complicated of all. Certainly the runarounds and turntable would make 'unusual' passenger services possible, but the vast majority unless I'm mistaken were just simple push-pull commuter trains, twice an hour!

@4069 So something like this? I think the fact the stay poles are white, but the bottom of the signal gantry poles are painted black is confusing the perspective: For reference: Not sure what the final (leftmost) upright is?

Thanks Chris, working on that now - hopefully my questions aren't improper but this is all very fascinating Why would 2 be released by 6 What purpose do H and K fulfill if they're not used in the interlocking? All the pictures I have seen of Caterham in the 30's-40's show 3SUB/4SUBs stabled at the bufferstops. Similarly, why would 6 not be back-locked by L, but 18 would be back-locked by C? Something like this? 26Spare---- 27Spare----

Thanks NIck, that's really clear in my mind. I've been thinking about trying to work out a lever frame description/interlocking from the diagram, I've come up roughly with the below - no doubt there are efficiencies to be validated! Distant, unlocked by pulling off 3 or 4, locked by 2 Ringed shunt signal to down sidings unlocked by 6 Home Signal slotted (?) with route indication to No. 2 road, interlocked with 7, 17, 19, 16, back locked with G & H Home Signal slotted (?) with route indication to No. 1 road, interlocked with 7, 17, 19, 12, back locked with J & K Spare Crossover to No 1. down siding, interlocked with 7, 3, 4, and back-locked with L FPL for 6, interlocked with 9 Shunt signal for No. 1 down siding to down main, interlocked with 6 - (how would one differentiate a right-away to the down main (to LoS) or up main (as departing train?) Crossover from No 1 down siding to up main, interlocked with 7 Ringed shunt signal for a reversing move from the up main into the up siding, interlocked with 7, 9, 21, 22, 23 Spare FPL for No. 20 crossover Platform starter for No 1. Road, interlocked with 12, 22, 21, 9 and back-locked by B Outer Home with white diamond back locked by A Platform starter for No. 2 road, interlocked with 16, 19, 21, 9 and back-locked by B FPL for No. 21 FPL for No. 18 Point to No. 1 down siding + catch point - locked by 17 and back-locked by C FPL for No. 20 crossover Crossover down main to No 1 road, locked by 19 and 12 - maybe 22? Point No 2 road to up main Point No 1 road to up siding + catch point - maybe 20? Shunt signal interlocked with 22 Shunt signal No 1. down siding locked by 18 Spare Spare Spare I'm sure there are improvements to this - I'm re-drafting in Excel for an easier to read tabular view, and I'm happy to muse on it but if anyone has a specific correction that would be very helpful.

So as it pertains to model railway operation (and Caterham in particular) it would primarly be a process of the treadles locking points, which would lock the signals: A would unlock platform starters 13 and 15 J & K would unlock 4 (and a host of other things in a chain, obviously) G & H would unlock 3 (ditto) B would unlock 15/13 C and L ( as well as 2 and 10) are a bit of a mystery to me. It would appear to me that there are two options, either 2 governs the entry to both down sidings and 10 governs a reversing movement into the up siding, or 2 governs the entry to No. 1 down siding, No. 10 governs the entry to No. 2 down siding?

So there's only one lamp and stencil - and two parts that swivel (the cover, and the stencil plate inside?)

So nice you said it thrice? Sykes Lock and Block - i.e. plungers and locked-out levers from things other than... other levers...

Righto, so both sides are hidden, and one revealed by rotating the cover 90 degrees infront of the other? What did it look like behind? I realise I'm getting into the nitty gritty on this one

Presumably this dates the new bracket signal and route indicator on the down home outside Caterham station? This is the first time I'm coming across this term - my very limited reading so far (primarily here: https://dickthesignals.co.uk/onewebmedia/1A Syx lock and block basics.pdf ) has me extremely puzzled. For the purposes of model railway operation, do I need to be concerned with how these would work in an operational sense? It would appear as essentially a way for other signal boxes to permit movements (hence R55 exemption) and lock out until those movements were completed. Interesting - so why have pairs of fouling bars on each platform road? Surely one is enough? The SRS has kindly advised that I can repost SS59 on the understanding that it is wholly under copyright of the Signalling Record Society: S559.pdf

@phil-b259 So it looks like there's a semi-circle, with a quarter circle that pivots with the movement of the lever to hide or show the route? I can't quite see what is meant to be shown or hidden - a number? A colour? Hello Chris, 1. I had originally thought of modelling the pre-doubling of the station in order for it to fit comfortably to dead-scale at about 7' - but then I realised that I'm not sure I have the patience for building dozens of carriages for them all to be close-coupled and run effectively as a shuttle service anyway - so thoughts turned towards the post-doubling arrangement, with passenger services served by multiple units and freight by steam or diesel (well, one diesel - 11001 at least) - depending on the era. If I were to model either, they would both be exactly as written, rather than adapted. I'm still not 100% convinced that 13' of space is best spent on modelling of this manner, but if nothing else this is very much helping me gain greater contextual understanding that can be ported anywhere. 2. Caterham is in the base of the valley, so unless I'm rather mistaken (and the last time I took the train there was some time ago) the route is fairly flat, especially compared to the Oxted/east Grinstead line which goes through tunnels, over girder bridges, etc. on the valley side). Thank you for the info on the LoS board/Yellow shunt arm. 3. There's unfortunately no further information on any interlocking - I assume we can make some fairly well educated guesses that the treadles and fouling bars would interlock points which would route into occupied track (presumably with the exception of the outer fouling bars on the platforms, otherwise it'd be impossible to couple up multiple units?) . For the purposes of a layout, presumably we could have these as indicators (as a quality-of-life improvement for whoever is signalling) as well as interlocking. Please see your PMs, by the way. Many thanks,

Hi Chris, it's Caterham - I've asked them for their terms on re-posting the signal diagram, since I paid them for it and presumably, they want to keep a source of income going, but if they are amenable I will reproduce here. In the meantime, here's the preview link:https://www.s-r-s.org.uk/html/src/R1795.htm Presumably the treadles trigger warning boxes like these: essentially the mechanical equivalent of a red or green LED? The fact it has 'locked' or 'free' rather than 'occupied' or 'free' implies to me there might be some interlocking involved? I'm not quire sure of the significance of the 'To XXX' section - for example Treadle L (in my snapshot and just below the 'AM' in Caterham on the sample diagram) - would that lock crossover marked 6 and/or the FPL at 7 ? Is this just a nomenclature thing and provides no other function? One thing I saw (which I probably won't model but I'm interested anyway) is the 'sprung points' on the diagram: Presumably this forces the trap closed by down trains on the down line (depicted here) , but acts as an automatic trap point for trains that pass the limit of shunt sign? I spoke to the S-R-S and they unfortunately have no files for the mechanical interlocking - which would be super handy. I was roughly able to puzzle-out the single track signalling plan and how it might work, but this feels like it's a great deal more complicated...