Lacathedrale

Hello there all, I've got a 4Sub on the workbench and while I was trying to figure out how best to put it together I thought I'd collate everything in my palette that could even be vaguely construed as a 'green', and this is what I came up with. These are taken in the same light and location, the top bar is a grey undercoat, the bottom is white - just to highlight the differences these things make! Tamiya X28 'Park Green' - too light Tamiya X5 - Seems a dead ringer for regular dark green EMU coaching stock but not the late SR/early BR(S) shades? Army Painter Greenskin - fine but the pigmentation is garbage Mr. Hobby Aqueous Gloss Green - really nice match Mr Hobby Emerald - Too blue Army Painter Goblin Green - way too bright Vallejo Heavy Black-Green - too dark Army Painter Angel Green - as above Vallejo Luftwaffe Camo Green - tied with the Mr. Hobby Aqueous green but with a more yellow hue. My gut feeling is that of this batch, Mr Hobby Aqueous Green, on a grey undercoat is the best match. Please note that I'm sticking to acrylics since I know that best!

I concur with @D869 - having had so much trouble getting my first loco chassis running properly! That said I would caution just to check the running qualities of the donor loco. I rewheeled a Farish 37 as my first 2FS loco and the bloody thing ran like a pig until I realised it had huge molded plastic protrusions under the axle slots which were fouling my trackwork. @Yorkshire Square - I was exactly of your viewpoint (and I really enjoy full soldered construction) - but @justin1985 hybrid approach using plastic ties/chairs mixed with PCB slepeers and Laurie's etched chairplate system absolutely convinced me. It is of course a little way down the line for anyone who is just starting out in 2mm but I will be making all my track like that for the foreseeable!

Exactly my thoughts Jim - it looks alot more natural and organic.

Worsley Works is a company which will generally offer to etch anything you've got a drawing for, at any scale. It's a real godsend for people modelling in non-commercial scales, or those who can use these 'scratch-aid' pieces to build slightly more offbeat subjects. While one could hardly call a class of multiple hundreds of EMUs offbeat, there certainly were quite a few variants of them - and given how ephemeral their configuration and deployment was, it's less of a case of picking a specific unit and more a case of having a good set of drawings/models/etc. and just making that be the one you're modelling! I have always wanted to have some ex pre-group EMU's - they are really evocative, to me! Most of these units were all being fairly comprehensively rebuilt in the 40's, but some lingered on into the 50's alongside more modern stock. Allen at WW has very kindly agreed to do the artwork for, and etch, the suburban units on my behalf. We had a little back and forth, trying to establish where we might find Exhibit A, your honour, is a drawing from B. Golding's "A Pictorial Record of Southern Electric Units", showing an ex-SECR-bodied EMU on 62'6" frames. snippet of Brian Golding's "Southern Electric UNits: A Pictoral Record" There are some rather strange points about the drawing when compared to one from Mike King: snippet of Mike King's "ex-SECR 3Sub drawing" The main differences: The panelling is much more rounded The Guard/Luggage cabin is longer, and the lookout panel is narrower The cnetre of the bogie rests approximately under the grab rail stanchion, and the rear driving axle centre-point is inside the line of the luggage door. Doing some digging, I found the following prototype photographs which may help us: snippet from 'Southern Electric: Vol 1' showing an ex-SECR bodied trailer third nee-composite (right) and ex-LBSCR unit (left) circa 1952 snippet from 'Southern Electric: Vol 2' showing an ex-SECR bodied DMBT circa 1950* * Interestingly, 4492 was one of the batch of 3-car suburban units that was augmented with a steel trailer unit, but in the full version of the above picture, it shows history repeating itself with another ex-SECR trailer unit subbed in. Clearly, these coaches have the rounded panelling. It is more difficult to establish the relationship of the guard/luggage compartment, but it would appear that the centre-line of the bogie is below the rear rail stanchion, and the panelling to the right of the luggage door matches the design in the King drawing (note: this side of the vehicle doesn't have a lookout, just a flush panel). I am not sure what happened with the Golding drawing - there was a point that bogies were replaced on these units, which may explain that - but the strangeness around the lookout panel is something new to me. I have ordered the full set of Mike King drawings, so I hope that clarifies

Great to see you back again safe and sound, Scott- looking forward to what comes next!

Interesting! How did you find that out, out fo curiousity?

Last night I was woken up by a thundering racket - far beyond the usual screech and chatter of the Emu's that move between London and Caterham. Looking up the real-time trains logs for yesterday it seems as though it was a visit from a very strange train indeed: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/H17725/2020-06-18/detailed Does anyone have any idea about what this is for or what loco it was? I couldn't muster the energy to peer out of bed and was asleep again by the time it came back towards London.

@Clive Mortimore why do both the windows look the same in the picture at the head of this thread, if one of them is hinged?

@Nearholmer - I may have exagerrated slightly for narrative effect - but there definitely were 3Sub and 4Sub EMUs that had ex SER matchbox-sided bodies so there were absolutely some old duffers in the mix too. The blog here is primarily to collect the research and information I pulled together from the main Holborn Viaduct planning and layout threads in a manner that makes it easy to read and refer to - I'm cautiously optimistic about this plan, but will require the construction of a fair few Worsley EMU's that haven't even been etched yet - so probably best not to place too much weight on it at this early stage Cheers!

While the majority of passenger traffic at Holborn Viaduct was via multiple units, but between 1935 until the finalisation of the Kent Coast electrification scheme and the end of steam a number of semi-fast passenger services to the coast operated. Due to the axle-loading limitations of Holborn Viaduct (not least that the services with the antithesis of prestigious!) the locomotives used on these services and the pure parcels/newspaper traffic were previously top-link SE&CR passenger locos of Wainright's era such as the E1's, D1's - as well as the more workaday O1's and C-classes. C-class on a cross-london freight at Holborn Viaduct Low Level Not sure on this one, but looks like a D1-class to me! Though I appreciate it's hard to see, there's a C-class on Platform 1, just above the left hand Metropolitan extension tracks Another D1 after dropping off a mid-morning Parcels train into P2 in 1958. Without a runaround on P2 it seems a shunting move via the runaround in P3/4 would have been required, backing towards Ludgate Hill. ex-Wainright E1 No. 31507 on a Ramsgate to Holborn Viaduct service in 1961 Yet another D1, this time in 1960 with a mixed passenger-parcels consist from Ramsgate that continued until the line was electrified, albeit transitioning to the BR Standard 2MT's.

It seems that trying to find some concrete information around Southern EMUs is very difficult. Not only is the information scant and spread between multiple volumes of out-of-print books, but the actual prototype information is dense with numbers, names, formations and units constantly changing. This page is my attempt to straighten out that information. Before you ask, the torpedo-nosed LSWR units will not feature on the layout - 3 Car Suburban Electrics It's important to note that the '3Sub' definition was never applied to these units at the time, only retrospectively used to identify them in comparison to the later 4Sub units (which were so named) ex-SECR 3-car suburban set built 1927/28 leading a typical '3Sub + 2 car trailer + 3Sub' formation These units were built on various underframes using various pre-group coaching stock bodies. There are certain 'tells' as to which pre-group company they originated from - rounded cabs denote some of the original LSWR stock, wide bodies with segmented roof corners indicate ex-LBSCR AC electric stock, etc. Some services could be served by a single 3sub or pair running in tandem, but for any larger capacity an unpowered two-car trailer unit was inserted between. Having no driving cabs however meant that they were not flexible and involved significant 'blind shunting' and the decision was made in 1937 to break up these trailer sets and use those cars to augment the existing units into... 4Sub Augments By 1949 all of the original 3-car suburban sets were either augmented into or replaced by 4Sub units. There are two main types, each with two variants: Type 1 - Pre Group Trailers Approximately 80 of the 3Sub units were augmented with spare trailers from war-damaged units, or units that were otherwise withdrawn due to non-standard dimensions (Glen Woods' collection of Ex Brighton unit Nº 4506) Type 2 - Bulleid Trailers 160ish units outnumbering the 'pure' pre-group 4Subs 2:1 were the slightly odd looking sets that had all-steel Bulleid trailers inserted into them, clearly seen in the second coach below! (source: SEMG) 4Sub New Builds Phase 1 "Shebas" 99 units built in 1941-46 of all-steel Bulleid-style bodywork with flat cab sides and multi-segment domed roof - in the range 4101-4110 (source: https://www.flickr.com/photos/geoffsimages/29798504382/ ) Phase 2 "Flat Fronts" 77 new units built 1946-48, and full-body rebuilds of the oldest pre-group stock during 48-51 (source: unknown) All of the 4sub units were mutually compatible with each other regardless of type or provenance. By the 1950's the limitations of the Westinghouse brake, standard coupling and the low-voltage equipment drove a need to revitalise the fleet which kicked off the production of the 4EPBs. By the end of 1956 almost all of the augmented pre-war 4 Sub units with SR standard underframes had been withdrawn for rebuilding, either as 'new' 4 Sub or as 4 EPB units. To be continued....

@wainwright1 do you happen to know why the driver's window on some of the units was larger than the secondman's ?

@Mikkel I've updated the text with some photographs to hopefully give a better flavour. Thank you for your comment!

Our story is set around the nationalisation of British Rail at Holborn Viaduct. The kent coast expresses and the continental boat trains have long been diverted to more prestigious terminals, and it is obviously now an uncomfortable relic of the Southern Railway's quarrelsome pre-grouping past. Holborn Viaduct in 1920, already well into decline despite the Edwardian splendour in evidence The station's relatively light service schedule makes it an excellent candidate for the first electrification of suburban lines under SR in 1925, and testing (the world's first) four aspect colour light signalling in 1926. The evidence of its tenuous position is readily apparent - the Low Level station (and cross-London services) wrapped up before the Great War, and Ludgate Hill, less than a stone's throw from the tip of the platforms has been shuttered for a decade - a long cry from the Midland, Great Northern, and LSWR services that terminated from points north in this An ex-LNER N2 passes a derelict Ludgate Hill, a picture of the colour light signals is visible between the canopy supports While all suburban passenger services are multiple units cobbled together from pre-grouping coach bodies on modern underframes with the occasional 'all steel' new build - some semi-fast passenger trains to the kent coast are yet still steam hauled (and will be until the completion of the Kent Coast electrification scheme reaches Ramsgate) - and steam plays a vital role in the terminus' newspaper and parcels traffic that benefits from the proximity to the city. An all-steel Bulleid 4Sub sits cheek by jowl with an unidenfitied steam loco at the unelectrified Platform 3 The station was designed as a mini-terminus by the LCDR on a tiny, narrowly tapered plot of land bordered by the road on one side, the metropolitan extension snaking underneath and Ludgate hill on the other. The already tight environs were further cramped by platform extensions to support eight car suburban trains in the 20's, and were taken further in the 30's which cut off the loco shed and left one island platform as a vestigal stump. The concourse was reduced to a narrow strip a few yards wide, and the outermost platforms were extended at the barest minimum width into the throat in order to support the trains lengths required. Despite that, a pair of 8-car EMUs would need to kiss the bufferstops to give each other clearance at the point formations leading into the station - and even then, would block movements to adjacent platforms. Two eight-car EMUs on P1 and P4 show just how congested the throat of the station was in this 1940's aerial photograph. The war has brought down the famous station hotel, and the station building itself limps on as a war damaged and shuttered relic. For long periods the station sits forlorn and impassive, between surges of rush-hour passengers arrive to head out towards the garden of England - and the conveyance newpapers and parcels to places far and wide courtesy of Fleet Street's printing presses and sorting offices of the Royal Mail. Underneath, the vast amount of cross-London freight rumbles through the Metropolitan Extension: An ex-LNER J50 leads a freight train past HV in the 50's The next thirty years will not be kind of Holborn Viaduct, reduced eventually to a single island platform before its unceremonious closure in 1990 - but for now, it's time to take Southern for Speed!

Hello hello, Have you had much chance to do any operation on the layout? Our long and varied discussions of operating various shortlines comes back to me every time I think about designing a layout ! Cheers,

Many thanks!

Can you please delete the blogs associated with my account as some housekeeping?

Really, the only thing that's lost to the winds is the Peco Code 75 streamline flex track I laid on the fiddle yard - the baseboards, the research, etc. all go forward to a next phase. I'm reluctant to commit myself at this early stage as the dust does need to settle. That said (without proof I can handle it) my provisional mission statement is: "To represent Holborn Viaduct from trainshed to the far end of Ludgate Circus as accurately as possible for the period of 1939-54 in 2mm/ft." By doing this, I am working in a scale that I am most passionate about and familiar with, in a space that can be accomodated in my home* and can materially implement the results of enjoyable prototype research on stock and workings, signals and operation. * Having already worked this bit out, it is as follows: the trainshed up to the end of platform 2 would fit onto one 3' board, the throat up to ludgate circus would fit on another 3' board, leaving up to 4'6" for a fiddle yard (an 8EPB is a shade under 3'6)

Thanks Andrew, I guess I should just bite the bullet, then!

Thank you all for your contributions and help in this thread, absolutely nothing added is without appreciation and has all helped me better clarify what I want, and hopefully how to achieve it, and so It is with a heavy heart that I draw this particular phase of layout construction to a close: &c It is the culmination of a number of factors over the last few days: My partner suggested I put a couple of my models on show, and I realised that I have absolutely no attachment to any of the shop-bought models, as pretty as they are, compared to even the most wretched kit or scratchbuild I've made. 4mm is not my native scale, and the hint of 2mm (at the top of this page) made me realise that's really what I want to be doing - particularly highlighted with the recent discussion of prototype trackwork, flowing curves and potentially adapting stock. The permanent space available for the layout has resolved back to the original footprint of 10' x 18", so with the layout's current 13' in length it would need to be erected in the garage which is significantly less desirable. The research and design aspects have been outrageously enjoyable, and that same R&D brought me ever closer to the prototype Holborn Viaduct - and so this plan, these ideas and this inspiration will continue to live on in this thread in due course. In the meantime, I am dispensing of my 4mm models and building materials, and 7mm bits and bobs on ebay (wayerst, if anyone wanted to get a look in) - with a view to refocus after a short period of reflection. Cheers,

Hear,hear - going back to my example - caterham from the home signal to the bufferstops is a hair over 14' in 2mm/ft - and Holborn Viaduct, including the routing to the metropolitan extension - less than 6'!

It seems that Mr. Freezer felt the same way about Minories, it showed up in his book about model railway signalling!

One thing my research on Holborn Viaduct has shown me is that a 'goods yard' or 'goods headshunt' is not strictly required. HV was a dreary and ill-tided place as early as the turn of the century and was used as a newspaper and parcels hub not only for suburban traffic but also for boat trains - even cattle would be 'bounced' off HV between the South Eastern routes to those routes heading south and south-west - to say nothing of the exchange traffic that would happen between other pre-group railways, which could even be as simple as one company's train dropping a cut of coaches/express freight wagons off and another company's locomotive pulling it out again.

Yes, using the Gaugemaster magnets for now - I may switch to servo-controlled permanent magnet sliders - but just for the sake of experimentation - what kind of components would I need?

One thing I also think that could enhance the typical Minories-style terminus is a 'finescale' approach to signalling and operation - not letting locos stay trapped/idle at the buffers of a terminus (they should move to the platform ends to be in clear sight of the signalman), as well as the correct observance of the (real or imaginary) signals - particularly shunt signals and their role in protecting running lines, etc. - it keeps movement and visual interest but doesn't require the trains to zoom in and out at a hundred miles an hour.