Lacathedrale

Thanks ohn, I had no idea that the bizarre building you've pictured was the Red Star parcels office and the last stump of the GPO platform described by @Nearholmer

I saw that too but didn't look - I was too scared he'd found something I missed but thankfully the sources that are there, are all there are. 05:35 shows the kink in Katharine Street itself - note the red brick versus the blue engineering brick in earlier shots of the retaining wall - where I'll be placing the GPO platform. I have paid a visit to my local wood merchant and should be returning with a good deal of material to start building the baseboards. I have decided in my infinite wisdom to make the scenic section a single board. I have access to a van in the vanishingly small proposition that I exhibit the layout, and if not it will save significantly on construction and permit a nice, unobstructed facade when plonked on the cupboards in my office.

The "laquer" is most likely just oxide, it needs to be gleaming. The flux is used to stop the build-up of oxide while you're soldering and is non-negotiable. You need a very tight join indeed if you want capiliary action to fill those joints...

Clean the surfaces with a fibreglass brush and then apply lots of liquid flux (Carr's Green Flux or plumbers flux paste)

I figured it was probably time to figure out the fiddle yard/traverser - and I have come to a shocking revelation - it turns out my house does obey the laws of euclidean geometry and so far I'm unable to unfold 4D space. It looks like this layout will need to have a "core", rather than being built to full length immediately. Length The uninterrupted space I have available for a permanent layout is approximately 8'4". By reverting to the original modelled extents and removing the forecourt, we end up with what I'm notionally calling the core. This core does not in any way compromise the prototypical fidelity (aside from my GPO platform!) as the station board is still fully to scale. We end up with a 38" station board, a 31" half-throat board, and a 31" fiddle yard. Angle An unfortunate byproduct of fitting into a human-compatible space is the need to ensure there is a reasonable amount of room for the traverser to traverse, so I must also straighten out the design. This also has the knock-on effect of slimming the layout down by a few inches. Katharine St. v3.2 - Core Non-core omission: forecourt There is easy provision for a slot-in forecourt 'module' that could restore the forecourt and frontage of the station - made with suitably light materials (foamcore?) it could even be magnetised. Non-core omission: throat and ballast pit siding Note that the track plan continues on the main module beyond Park Lane - this is required for the core module to function, but also forms the basis for an additional approach board to be inserted at a future date to model the full throat including the gravel pit/engineer's yard. Given insertion of any board in this location precludes a permanent setup at home, there's no reason for the approach board to be the measly 2' originally specificed, and could even be a curved baseboard as per the original alignment relative to Central Croydon.

@Nearholmer tbh if all i'm going to 'gain' is a 4VEP (which I never actually rode upon and have no real connection to anyway), then maybe I should focus on the outer suburban services to/from London - Addiscombe was served by 2EPB and 4EPB shuttles (albeit on the Eastern Section, but proximal!) and 4SUBs to Coulsdon North and West Croydon. For the sake of having a ready-made unit I'll happily buy a Farish 4CEP if one turns up on eBay, though! Additionally I think CEPs, EPBs and SUBs may well give me a good amount of visual distinction between EMU's and as such could potentially stomach losing the Thumpers to reduce any possible signalman and path planning ulceration. @Dr Gerbil-Fritters I saw the layout at the same show I saw 'Sutton St. Anne' which is IMO a far superior layout. Southwark Bridge has the theme, but I don't think it was executed as well as the other.

I would like to get a broad handle on the EMU requirements for Katharine St - based on the list I posted earlier for potential services, I think I've got it all mapped out except the slower London-Brighton services which may have called in at Katharine St. en-route (I am happy to imagine a wye at the junction to the main line rather than a facing connection to the slow lines which would permit slow and all-station-stop services to call in en route to a final destination: London to Katharine St (redirected from terminating trains at East/West Croydon) 4EPB, 2EPB, 4SUB 39 Holborn Viaduct to West Croydon via Selhurst 92/94/67/69 London Victoria/Bridge to West Croydon via Selhurst/Crystal Palace 71 London Victoria to East Croydon 76 London Bridge to East Croydon London to Brighton (all station stopper via Katharine St) - 4CIG??? 34 Victoria to Brighton all station stopper via Quarry - 44 London Bridge to Brighton all station stopper via Quarry London to East Sussex (via Katharine St) - Thumper DMU 66/77 East Grinstead to London Victoria/Bridge 88/99 Uckfield to London Victoria/Bridge Cross-regional trains - Loco + 4TC or Mk1 rake, or Thumper DMU GB Willesden to Central Croydon GB (?) Kensington to Central Croydon What fits comfortably into the '4CIG???' section? I'm going to assume that it's one of the 4CEP or BEP or VEP, or CIG or BIG. I'm assuming the 4EPBs would have displaced the 4SUBs over time but the rest is a mystery. When I was a kid I took slam door NSE trains from Lewisham to London Bridge before the Networkers displaced them, and got on at least one Connex South Central slam-door train at Waterloo East which I believe was fast to somewhere like Hastings!

@TJ52 - lovely shot. I think we have a candidate for my EDL loco! Here is 73142 pulling what I assume is the Redhill-Brighton leg of a London parcels train in the 70's: And funnily enough, I spotted this exact loco renumbered as 73201 when I used to live on the Caterham Branch, on RHTT duties, still sporting the BR blue livery with dual shields some 35 years later! For reference,pictured here in the condition I remember at Strood:

That's about the top end of the period I'm looking to model but all is well. Gatwick Express/Intercity 73's are lovely and who doesn't like an NSE 4TC? Anything between '79 and '89 works well for me! It looks like it also ran with a single electro-diesel in '89

Commenting on a photo of 73002 at Victoria on a newspaper train has reinforced @eastwestdivide's point earlier about BSK's for meagre passenger accomodation on news trains, and then subsequently finding their way onto mail and parcels trains on return workings. This is very handy, as 7E is just such a news train that will call into Central Croydon: I don't imagine there will be many passengers alighting at Central Croydon from an 0300 out of Victoria! I can't find a return flow from Eastbourne to London direct, but there are plenty of candidates that would tack the BSK on to get it back to Vicoria. Frustratingly, there appear to only be Scotrail branded BSK's available currently, and for a high price - £46! - so I'll sit on my hands on this one for a little longer and hope that standard liveried ones become available. Or, can I just wipe out the ScotRail sector logo and that's it?

I'd never seen an 03/04 in any other setting than a model, so that's just very cute. As per the signalling thread, since the original ask seems to have been sorted, is it possible for us to direct any further correspondence to the parent thread here, please?

Truly wonderful, thanks. It's been brought to my attention that the couple of threads which started distinct have all converged - if it's possible can you please redirect any further correspondence to the parent thread here:

I've taken @eastwestdivide's consist literally for my first Kensington-Central Croydon train - but are there any others from the post-1979 era that we know authoritatively?

Diamond, thank you - it seesms since @bcnPete bought them, they've been moribund in N gauge - but I'll ask now and report any findings to the thread! Thanks!

@Nearholmer :

Passenger Stock for Kensington-Central Croydon headcode GB Parcels stock #1 BG+BG+GUV+CCT (BR) Parcels stock #2 GUV + NFV + CCT (SR) + NFV

I've sketched out the cutting list for the baseboards - both baseboards can be built from a single sheet of 6mm ply with a fair amount for wastage: The sawtooth pattern shows the cross and diagonal brace locations, to be measured out above. A, B, and C ends are doubled up to provide some meat for coupling up the boards. This will provide a fully flat baseboard, akin to a fiddle yard. The rear of the layout (i.e. Katherine St itself) has a rise of 15' between the station building and the throat, and this will be effected by risers, rather than cutting the stretchers awkwardly. In this state the layout has no integral proscenium arch, lighting rig or backscene. My gut feeling is that for an amateur like me it's going to be more effort than it's worth to try to integrate it so I'm leaning towards the use of pockets on the back of the baseboard to take a backscene and lighting rig on aluminum square tube. @Flying Pig - though it seems quite straight forward I've tried to rearrange the throat and there's nowhere to go - the threeway can't go back towards the bridge any further than it currently is, and the platform turnout can't be flipped to the other direction and still maintain the geometry into the P1 runaround. Thanks! A 1950's BritainFromAbove crop shows the engineer's yard and the workshop buildings which flanked the track: The tree-lined embankment shows the border of Fair field, and the diagonal stub on the top-right shows where the footbridge I proposition as a view break would have crossed the cutting. Also of general interest - the OHLE gantries for the Brighton overhead electric trains are still in situ. The concrete plinths on which they stood are still extant in the retaining walls.

If you will excuse the gratuitous use of 1990's track planning tools, I've filled in the details for the plan a little more concretely: I've increased the angle of the track through the layout, and pushed the station back a couple of inches to give some distance between the platform and the front of the visible area. In my timeline, Park Lane is still just a normal road, and the Croydon Flyover doesn't exist - as such, no embankment or earthworks are required and the gentle slope from the corner of Katharine St. and Park Lane continues down the highstreet to the Sugarloaf pub some distance away to the south. The foreground of this layout is therefore on such a slope, and Queens' Gardens (once planned to occupy the whole site - perish the thought!) is squeezed in between the station and Mint Walk, closer towards the viewer. The station throat's nature as a cutting is emphasised by bringing the lines of the board inward to follow the railway - steep embankments on both sides rise up. If neccesary, Fair field path could be dropped across the tracks to bracket the end of the layout.

@Nearholmer the biggest units I'm looking to hold are 2+4 car consists, really - so calling on arms could be quite fun. I'm trying the find the boundaries of both semaphore and colour light signalling when it comes to complexity, and then I can safely work backwards from that. I must admit I like the idea of shunt signals for the loops. There's definitely room between the area depicted and the Up Slow on the main line, so I'm not all that worried about that bit. Shunt exit from the siding seems to be mandatory? Caterham (nearby) used square route indicator boxes on the overhead gantry so happy with those. Realistically, it's not in a position that can be viewed so other than some notional golden white LEDs behind a mesh, I'm not sure the specifics are that important. I'm actually struggling more to find working colour light signals in the combinations required than I am semaphores, bizarrely enough...

Is there a known-good supplier of kits or RTP colour light signals? Or, failing that then any articles on scratch-building that a two-thumbed ape such as my self might have a hope of following?

Thanks @bécasse - I obviously skipped all lessons on colour light workings as I'm a little confused, hopefully you don't mind me asking some questions? This is the sketch I've come up with based on what you've said: 10. G/Y/R 3-aspect signal + theatre indicator for roads 4/3/2/1 - I seem to remember there being something about fixing distants to caution on termini - wouldn't this effectively be the same? i.e. only ever showing yellow (next section is clear, but then occupied/non-existent?) or red (no available routes) ? 11 + 12, 13 + 14 - Platform and loop starters - would these be on brackets together, or stand-alone? 15 - Y/G/Y/R 4-aspect signal - presumably the top yellow is permit running into the yard/branch? Or to act as a double-yellow for the junction signals further on? 16 - Red ground disc for shunting moves back to the platform/runarounds 17 - Miniature, single aspect Y - not sure of the purpose on this one? Same question - does it sit on the same bracket as 10? With regard to the yard/branch - are there no signals from that into the station? Another ground-disc? Beyond the limits of the layout, the East Croydon South Box (AKA fiddle yard) would have a lever to unlock the crossover between roads 1/2 or 3/4, and its own signals would exert on the Up line YGYR. Is that about right?

Wonderful, wonderful. I can't express how satisfying it is to see the buildings come down - great stuff!

I think as per some sage advice from observers of this thread, that it may be prudent to adopt colour light signalling at least initially for this layout. While I would very much love to see semaphores in action at some point and I have no compunction in invoking Rule #1 to that effect, unless I can find them off-the-shelf (or at least in working kit form) then I think the time taken to construct them may adversely affect the inertia of the project. I'll keep an eye out for a working bracket/junction signal, but in the meantime... If I adopt colour light signalling I would like to ensure that there's something to do, rather than it being automatic - so, would one replace the semaphores like-for-like with the exception of the platform home signals being replaced with either a feather or theatre indicator?

@Oldddudders though not you, I did think of this video when you posted that evocative prose: I was planning on using a hybrid of East Croydon and Redhill's GPO siding as inspiration for one built on my layout - the only shot I have of the latter is front on, from kentrail on the top of this page: https://www.kentrail.org.uk/Class_415_3.htm It looks like BR(S) green and cream, with NSE lamps and trolleys! How's that for contrast? Here's the 1954 track diagram, showing the sidings between P2 & 3 and the pit road (!) At the bottom it looks like the dock has been removed and the halls sidings are still extant? For my little layout, it's only a two platform terminus in a cutting. Would there have been a GPO platform and then a conveyor up and out? Maybe a passageway under the road to an adjacent building? A side gate at the end of the platforms (ground level) where the trolleys would have been wheeled? Or would they just have been unloaded onto the platform and carted onward from there? This is the plan, I am presuming a bay platform at the north side, and the sorting office being on the other side of Katharine Street: Katharine St. is on a 4% gradient, high enough for a bridge on the right, and low enough on the left that the station building is at ground level. I had considered an East Croydon 'grasping arm' conveyor across both platforms (maybe in the middle, as a view break) first, then thought a GPO bay as per Redhill might be a little more interesting and increase the parcels focus for the layout - but I'm just sketching ideas at this point!

You're quite right Paul, looking at the diagrams it seems the 1868-71 plan and the 1886-90 plan differed a fair bit. The signal box, shunt signals, etc. were all implemented as part of the '86 refurbishment of the site. I have diagrammed them both here for easy comparison, using the slightly stretched footprint of Katharine St I've settled on at the bottom for comparison with the modern (ha!) plan at the top: The main difference is that the runaround sidings would connect to the OPPOSITE platform road. This has a number of knock-on effects - namely that it allows a larger runaround if one is prepared to block the throat, and increases usable platform length by approximately 30'. There are a few major knocks against this however: Due to the FineTrax components available it unfortunately would also preclude a three-way for the dedicated GPO siding and there's just not enough space for it anywhere else For the same reason (lack of a double scissors) the throat has to be re-jigged and the crossovers become opposite-handed, limiting the gravel headshunt to use P1 only The main reason for this extension, i.e. the increase in capacity is somewhat lost on me, as the P1 runaround already has capacity for four Mk1's which I imagine to be my longest loco-hauled train, and the platforms do not gain enough length for an 8-car EMU. Ultimately I think I'm going to stick with the '68-71 plan, though I guess alot can happen between now and when sod is cut! I have taken delivery of my first batch of stock for this layout, to be photographed tomorrow!