Adam

I cut mine so that they were a close fit and thus stayed put until the solvent was applied - sharp scalpel again! No worse than most other details. The operating gear on the iron ore hopper I'm doing (the whitemetal is bound for use as wagon weights) will be much more challenging. Adam

Does this help Mark? The door is Airfix, the panel is just 20 thou' sheet with the detail in Evergreen strip, 10x40 on the top and 10x60 on the bottom. The verticals were more 10x40, trimmed to an angle with a *new* scalpel blade - because an old one will snag - once set. I thinned the visible edge of the 20 thou' a little. Adam

Courtesy of Pete Insole, the following image has been pointed in my direction: https://www.flickr.com/photos/125096403@N08/15884436063/in/album-72157650355865130/ Grey with red letters. Who'd have thought? Adam

In the background, I've also been working on a Cambrian Dogfish - I've recorded a couple of these already: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/37002-adams-em-workbench-hopper-and-hybar/page-21&do=findComment&comment=1924354 and http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/37002-adams-em-workbench-hopper-and-hybar/?p=2097684 soI didn't record much on this one except for a couple of pre- and post- painting shots: The paintjob is by Halfords, lettering by Cambridge Custom Transfers based on this example: http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brdogfish/h2e31cc05#h3d632d8a I cut the transfers about to match; there seems to have been quite a lot of variation: the three wagons in this lovely picture are all different. The 21 ton hopper has had its band repainted the correct colour - which turns out to be grey - but I neglected to take a picture of it, while the 21 ton flat bottomed (dia. 1/107 or MDO) has been primed and the underframe bush painted in a mix of matt chocolate and metalcote gunmetal. The axlebox and spring castings are also from Rumney Models and are very nice indeed. Justin may be amused to learn that I've actually used the springing on this one... The primer reveals a couple of things on the body to attend to but nothing serious. Adam

Ah, I was hoping you wouldn't ask that. The explanation (as assembled by the good folks who populate the BR Wagon Research Yahoo group) is that the number was part of a still-born system to categorise wagons according to their maximum service speed. The quickest way to explain this comes via the following appeared in LMR WON [Wagon Operating Notice] in September 1963 (information from Mike Hollick). I have highlighted the appropriate bit. NOTICE TO STAFF. Limited speed of all four-wheeled vehicles of 10 feet wheelbase or less, and reduced maximum speed of Class 4 trains. Until further notice all four-wheeled vehicles with a wheelbase of 10 feet or less are subject,to a speed restriction of 50 m.p.h. , If it is necessary for any such vehicle to be conveyed on a Class 1, 2 or 3 train, the Guard must advise the Driver and instruct him not to exceed 50 m.p.h. Class 4 or 4+ trains must not exceed 50 m.p.h. at any point unless indicated in the timetable by a "club" symbol, in which case a maximum speed of 55 m.p.h, (Class 4) or 60 m.p.h. (Class 4+) will be permissible. Should it be necessary for a train so indicated to carry a four-wheeled vehicle with a wheelbase of 10 feet or less the Guard must instruct the Driver not to exceed 50 m.p.h. Painting of Freight Stock and Non-bogie Coaching Stock. It is the future intention that all freight stock and non-bogie coaching stock will be marked to Indicate the maximum speed at which it may run. It may have been observed that a number of vehicles have already appeared in service bearing a white numeral in a white lined square, and without the symbol "XP" where applicable. Full instructions on this subject will be published in due course. In the meantime it should be noted that the Numerals "1" "2" or "3" are equivalent to "XP" marking. (21-9-63) The numbers seem to have been abandoned relatively early, but the white boxes were applied for years afterwards, well into the 1980s when it can only have become paintshop habit: http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/oyster/h10551809#h10551809 Adam PS - there was a later instruction which shows that paintshops had been rather confused by all this: the amendment was to use the box to put the 'XP' in if appropriate. EDIT: More from Ian Fleming: https://windcutter.wordpress.com/2015/02/10/postscript-21/

And here, I think, is an answer: https://www.flickr.com/photos/12a_kingmoor_klickr/5790671805/sizes/l Note the hopper (LNER dia. 100) in the back right hand corner. The two tone finish is clear as is the boxed lettering on the brown lower half replete with figure 5 in the square box to the right of it. If you squint, the middle letters of the Charringtons brand are just about visible in, I reckon, red. Adam

While I agree with that - matching a new paint job was the aim - I'm not convinced that the wagon I'm actually modelling, which I'm fairly certain was brown overall, had a red band. The decision to split the question out was a judgement on my part that it might be more prominent on the prototype part of the forum and thus get a wider audience and perhaps the crucial piece of information: this thread is primarily about making things. Adam

As alluded to above - and his is what is shown in the Paul Bartlett image - but it's the earlier livery, clearly on newly repainted wagons in the HMRS pictures over brown that I want to know about. Adam

Not sure - this from Bob Wallace of the BR Wagon Research group: re the 21T Coal Hoppers that carried Charringtons livery, just found this information. The advertising contract between BR and Charrington covered the livery being applied to 63 fully fitted, disc-braked Coal hoppers. No date for the application but the contract finished in early 1965. The wagons were required to be sent to Temple Mills Works for repainting in a circular dated 5/4/1965. Porcy has just sent me an image via PM - they're definitely 21 tonners. Clearly the repaints were only for these wagons - the Paul Bartlett image linked in the OP shows an unfitted wagon at a later date. Adam

Maybe so, but I'm now convinced that the Charringtons hopper (the upper band at least) is the wrong colour. I'm soliciting information in the prototype forum: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/116637-charringtons-coal-hoppers/&do=findComment&comment=2492544 Adam

Great, thanks Brian. That's grist to the mill - and useful to have some locations the search for possible evidence. Adam

Thanks both. I think the grey - with the red panel - is probably accurate (I'm reasonably sure I've seen a Larkin picture with that as a livery description). Here's the one Charrington's wagon in Paul Bartlett's collections. this demonstrates that the lettering is correct at least: http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/br21thopperweld/h3d79ba9a#h3d79ba9a Wrenn produced one without the red panel - I've no idea whether that is correct or a production cost saving: http://wrennmodelrailways.com/wrenn-rolling-stock/freight-and-rolling-stock/grain-hopper-wagons.html Adam

Plausible. Red on grey or yellow struck me as feasible too. Photographic or eye witness evidence required before I (re)commit to paint though. Adam

A question about wagon liveries. It's well known that Charringtons fuels had branded hoppers and, when painted grey, these had black writing on red panels. Now I'm a bit confused about some repaints of vehicles carried out in conjunction with the opening of of coal concentration depots. The wagon colour seems to have been bauxite or brown, but the panels, running the full length of the wagon were a light colour with the lettering a darker contrasting colour: NOT black. The pictures linked to below show this but I was wondering, what were the colours? Red lettering seems possible, but on a grey back ground? Or yellow? http://www.hmrs.org.uk/photograph-collection/images/1200px/AAX122.jpg Note that the vehicle below is an LNER-built example, number E304700, dated 16 November 1963. http://www.hmrs.org.uk/photograph-collection/images/1200px/AAX534.jpg There's another example, in service c.1968 shown on p. 41 of Malcom Castledine's Industrial Railways in Northumbria and County Durham in the latter days of Steam (Booklaw, 2004). Black and white, of course... Thoughts? Adam

Thanks Brian. The grey-liveried ones do seem to have been the more common if photographic evidence is anything to go by, but having seen a handful of pictures of veicles obviously in freight brown, I thought that I might as well. I'll have to do a grey one at some point perhaps. Only one of Paul Bartlett's pictures seems to show one: http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/br21thopperweld/h67F00716#h3d79ba9a There's a little more detail in this thread: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/79192-wimbledon-sutton-other-3rd-rail-branches/?p=1246131 with a scan from Jon Hall, of a news item in Modern Railways from 1963 marking the opening of the depot - note the hoppers shown in the accompanying pictures. There are similar pictures, describing the Palace Gates depot, to be found here: http://www.bowesandbounds.org/forum/topics/charringtons-mechanised-coal-depot-at-palace-gates-wood-green Adam

A couple of slightly indifferent pictures in this lovely morning light showing the BR hybar in its painted condition. Obviously it isn't actually finished; a final coat of matt lacquer and weathering, not to mention paining the insides, will follow, but a sense of what the finished vehicle will look like is clear. The painted view shows off Justin's tarp' rail etches to their best advantage I think. More exotically, we also have - not complete because, if I have Rail Alphabet style lettering for wagons I can't lay hands on it right now - my 21 ton hopper, liveried for Charringtons. I think it's fair to suggest that the coal factors in question certainly got their monies' worth! Adam

Clearly there's something in the air, because here's another completed wagon, a Parkside BR hybar titivated with Rumney Models tarp' rail and sundry minor details These are lovely etchings and work rather like the prototype, even locking in place. The how is best explained in Justin's instructions and you'll be pleased to know that this isn't as fiddly as it might be; the only really tricky elements are the clips because of their tiny, tiny size. The etch provides for both variants on the standard tarp' bar and this, the earlier, is the simpler owing to the fact that the later version requires 0.7mm wire to be flattened and a hole drilled with precision. This is tricky! The slightly bent bar is very much prototypical... Adam

Let one out of the packet Andrew; it'll be done before you know it... Adam

And now the completion of something rather better thought out, the latest Parkside, not-quite-fitted 21 tonner. The door handles are from another Rumney Models etch for a chassis (B.28) for precisely this wagon which I shall use for something completely different, as is my wont. This also yielded the rather nice kick steps, held in place with a couple of hefty (for the size) but invisible 0.5 nickel silver pins. The handrail brackets are yet more spares from Dave Bradwell's hopper underframe etch. I have enough bits from that to detail at least one more 21 tonner so no waste there... The end supports are 30 thou by 30 thou Evergreen strip - almost certainly overscale, if not by much - which is just about robust enough to put a 0.5mm hole through. The bracket mounted to these was plugged and glued into that hole and the wire threaded through with the other brackets loose upon it. These were melted in, gently, with the tip of the soldering iron; if it's good enough for Iain Rice, it'll do for me! This isn't as tricky as you might think and the result is quite robust. The paintjob is next on the agenda. Adam

While the solvent sets on the end piece completing the door end, I returned to look more closely at the dia. 1/166 iron ore hopper and the mess that is the design of the chassis and brakegear. The principal issue is the amount of whitemetal used in the midst of brass fittings. Now I can understand that this was intended to reduce the difficulty of the kit by reducing the number of fiddly sub-assemblies but the result, is to provide a rather crude representation of most of the bits and lots of very fiddly whitemetal to brass soldering in, as parts go in, lots of risk of doing irreparable damage or dropping off. I will end up cheating and using epoxy, but only after I've worked out the hopper door gear that goes above the solebar (oh, and there's no location provided for any of this, or the hopper. Hmm.). I'd mind less if the whitemetal bits were better representation of the real thing: Here is the real thing - https://www.flickr.com/photos/wild_boar_fell_railways/9083901065/ Other parts - the corner steps, notably - are supplied in whitemetal when they really should be brass. Even allowing for a proficient soldering job, which is probably dubious given the size of the joint and the competence of the workforce in these things, the chances of a whitemetal step surviving in service are slim. I replaced these with spares from a Dave Bradwell chassis for an LNER 21 ton hopper (excellent value) and, suitably reinforced with solder, this should be fine. Anyhow, progress to this point is shown below with solder everywhere. Hopefully I'll be able to complete this without anything dropping off... Adam

With the flat-bottomed 21 tonner, all soldering is now complete and the body is epoxied to the chassis. The solebar detail and buffers have been glued on and the basis of the hinges have been added. Underneath you can see that the body locates in place with a bit of 40 thou' cut to fit the hole in the chassis top plate. The generosity with the epoxy is down to wanting to keep the coupling links from hooking on the back of the hooks (as well as mixing too much). Yes, this is the right way round! I'm waiting on castings before I can finish the underframe, but that's no problem as there are jobs to do complete the body, most notably filling in that gap where the end plate should be! Adam

I know the distractions only too well. The iron ore hopper, now it's out of the box, should at least get its brakes done before it goes back in again. Then there's the small matter of working out how the door release mechanisms should be modelled without the resin hopper in situ. Tricky. Justin's bits go together as advertised! Adam

Some small developments demonstrating thrift. Perhaps. All I'm really doing is utilising some of the spares very kindly supplied by etch designers to improve other wagons. First, the source, the Rumney-chassised 21 tonner which has had its levers fitted. Just door springs to go and all soldering operations will be complete. The small horse loop under the solebar is more soft brass wire, formed and cut overlength before being soldered and trimmed to the cirrect length afterwards. All quite straightforward. Moving on to the Parkside-based 21 tonner. I've used some levers from an etch by Dave Bradwell (it was intended for plate wagons but they're extremely useful for improving all sorts of things; these aren't list items but he does sell them at shows - basically Scaleforum). The lever guides are from the same source while the stays - very practical as well as prototypical - and are pinned to the solebar. The lifting links are also from this etch. The whole thing is finer and sturdier than what Parkside supply but I don't suppose in a layout context that the difference will be all that apparent! Finally, the birthpangs of a wagon - a diagram 1/166 iron ore hopper - that has been hanging around for far too long. Fundamentally this is becuse of some unfortunate design decisions - the supplied headstocks are whitemetal, the brass is rather thick and the brake levers were dimensionally suspect. Another set of Dave Bradwell brake levers and leftover Rumney Models links have tidied that up and will be joined by some suitable lever guides. Once that is done I'll be able to face up to adding all the other soldered details before worrying about the quantities of whitemetal that form the brakeshoe assemblies. This is the kind of thing that can give multi-media kits a bad name, though I will own up to putting the solebar overlays on the wrong way round. That really isn't a fault of the kit! Adam

Thanks Justin - you don't know how much straightening out and self-inflicted fettling has gone on! The appearance of the brakeshoes is very good (it'd be better if I had been calmer) and the next set will be tidier. Good news about the detailing etches; my tank will go into hibernation... Meanwhile, most of the remaining bits have gone on - Justin, I'll be in touch for some castings for it shortly. I might even spring this one! Adam

How about Colin Craig's ladders? http://colincraig4mm.co.uk/#/ladders/4532597771 Being brass they should take being curved? I have a set of nickel silver ladders from 51L assembled in a similar fashion which might suit though I'm a little uneasy about treating those in a similar fashion. Adam