Golden Fleece 30

Stanier 2-6-4's and BR 2-6-4's were a lot different. BR were only 2 cylinder but Staniers were 2 and 3 cylinders. BR's had curved sides to the tanks like Mk1 coaches, Staniers were flat, pus a few more differences. I thought ACE etc were the modern products of Hornby 0 gauge and Bassett Lowke? Garry

It's all in Michael Fosters book. Garry

Has anyone got any broken Tri-ang diecast TT signals they wish to move on? Depending on where they are broken I am interested in some. Bases for either type A or B track are not required. Garry

Hope this makes it clear Ray. The advantage is you can have as many extra tracks as you like as long as none are in line with the gaps in the circular rail. Garry

Hi Ray, I never did the Airfix/Dapol one but did a couple of others in the old days. One was a bridge off the old original Tri-ang standard track that I wanted shortening for a 4-6-0 etc so I made a circle of rail soldered to screws in the board, but, split the rail into two haves at 90 degrees to the inlet tack. Then two thin phosphor wipers screwed on at each end of the bridge underneath to press on the rail. One wiper had a wire to each rail on the bridge, in your case one would be to the centre rail. It is very easy to do but I have no idea on the motorising part unless you just wanted to hand turn it. If hand operated you should do the electrics in less than an hour. The Hornby Ivatt Duchess actually came out last year and I remember seeing a couple of Dublo mods years ago but never appealed to me as I don't like the shape myself. Those people also used the Tri-ang Britannia pony truck, in fact it may have been an article in RM in the 60's/70's. Garry

Hi David, the drooping etc is one reason I changed to Kadee's for the rake ends a long, long time ago, and, Dublo couplings do not always uncouple as they should. I agree with the modern tension locks being loose and drooping, and, they uncouple on their own more times than Dublo ever did. I have to say I am not interested in keeping items just for "originality/sentimental" or whatever so quite a few Dublo SD coaches have had their bogies removed and had Bachmann ones fitted, this includes the SD Restaurant cars as well, value wise is not what I wanted them for but just to run. No doubt a lot of Dublo people will be up in arms (and a lot of HRCA members did not like it) but to me the coaches run a lot better, that is if I am not running the Exleys. Dublo purists as such have very little to run LOL, with only a handful of locos and coaches without any duplication's. When you go to one of their events it is very boring as Golden Fleece on one layout looks just the same as Golden Fleece on 3 or 4 other layouts etc lol. Garry

Hi Ray, I preferred the plastic couplings but they were/are the worst to keep in the correct position. At times it seems the rivet works loose and then there is no leeway for the coupling to be adjusted like the metal ones. Tightening can work but can also work the other way and make the coupling too tight to work. At least the compensated bogies had the facility to bend the mounting plate up or down but Dublo seemed to go for the non compensated ones again. I know a few people had issues with the compensated ones but I never did, and my track was never that flat. A lot of mine even had 3-rail metal ones fitted, I used to swap with a couple of chaps who wanted nylon ones. Then there is the issue that some actually "bent" and you could not bend them back, especially the long 2-6-4 and 8F front bogie ones. Most of mine have all been replaced with Kadee's which are far better (and neater). I guess that is why I converted all stock to Tri-ang style in the 60's and 70's until I started with Kadee's and used them ever since. At least the centre coach on the EMU wont need to be uncoupled. You do see a lot of trimmed or removed droppers from the plastic ones for that reason. Garry

With the clearances being as tight as they are is probably why many people do not use Dublo pick-ups without a bit of modification needed to suit the Wrenn chassis. Tho loco is a heavy beast, probably more than any Dublo loco, and I guess from the cast body having a cast backhead integral. I am pleased that Wrenn went for the Vertical motor and not the ugly Ringfield that spoilt the Dublo Barnstaple/Dorchester. Their W/C would have been so much nicer had they used the vertical motor. These Spam Cans are very nice runners. Here are the 5 I used to have, all mint and boxed for a bargain price of about £850 the lot, two have been sold on, two have been 3-railed and the last one is a Hurricane with 5 pole motor. I am undecided what to do with that one as I short out the insulating bush as I don't like pick-ups used but don't have a 2-rail layout. The photo shows the different shades of lining and the inconsistent position applied, only Hurricane seems to have the cab lining correct. The video shows one of the 3-railed ones and the last part has it pulling 14 Exley coaches all fitted with real glass windows. The first 8 are repainted Blood and Custard ones the last 7 are the rare original Exley Blood and Custard ones. Garry

Is the Scotsman the modern day DCC ready version. If so then I do away with the multi pin plugs etc throwing them away, and hot wire the two wheel sets together and use the remaining wire for the centre pick-up. With the old versions I prefer to replace the insulated wheel with a non insulated one so no pick-ups required as per Dublo locos. Garry

That is certainly 0 gauge John, lovely photo. To me there are a couple of possibilities, 1) Harold was exhibiting his portable layout in Blackpool, but, with the ballast and scenery etc it seems unlikely. I only remember the unballasted ones at shows. 2) He had a more "permanent" layout in Blackpool before moving to Scarborough. The layout depicted above does not give me any indication as the one in Scarborough. I believe he did venture out often in the closed season but I would think Blackpool was "shut" if Scarborough was. I think Victoria is about my age and she never said they lived in Blackpool so it may have been before her time, I can only remember him with a permanent layout from Scarborough but the Dublo layout I remember well from both Blackpool Olympia and then in Harold's possession in Scarborough. It is intriguing to say the least as there is very little information about Harold Elliot and his layouts. Here is a scan from Michael Fosters book showing a Dublo layout from 1953 (I was 1) and is very similar to the one I remember although by the time I saw it the Castle and Bo-Bo were running. I think I will have first seen it around 1957/8 time. By the time I did see it the layout had acquired the turntable as well. I will say that at both Blackpool and Scarborough the layout was only viewed from the far side and not from where the photo was taken. Garry

John, both layouts were 3-rail, the large 0 gauge and the Dublo one. In those days there was no 00 Coronation ready to run apart from a Trix AC version. I think the Dublo one when it was in Blackpool may have still been owned by Mecanno but not 100% certain. Harold Elliot did end up with a small TT layout for the last year or so in Scarborough but I never saw that working. Regarding Sammy' antics it was about an hourly or so event so some people could miss it. I would be in there for more than an hour as my parents would be on the bingo or slot machines downstairs. I doubt there will be a problem scanning the card as long as you say who's it was or you have no idea but not yours. I have put various pages from Railway Modeller on. The big issue is if you used it to make money but that obviously is not the case here. Garry

The first Sammy the Shunter book was published in 1949 and they were written by Eileen Gibb. Here is a replacement book I bought last year. My parents first bought this for me in the late 50's early 60's while I was just starting to read on my own, probably from Harold Elliot in Scarborough, but was lost in time. As we now have a little 6 year old leaning to read, and I have brainwashed her into loving steam engines and disliking diesels (she also helps me with my TT layout), I bought this to read to her. This book has about 15 of the individual stories in it and was still being reprinted in the 70's. Great for kids, and memories for the older ones. Garry

Here are the only photos I managed to find in my search for this elusive layout a few years ago. As the write up states the exhibition part was only a small part of the layout. Railway Modeller October 1961. Sammy the shunter on Harold's layout was based on a loco character in a book/books. The real one was a 2-4-2 but Harold's was just an 0-4-0. Victoria did say to me that during the summer she would be on the beach in her swimming costume and Harold would use the microphone to call her in to help even though she might have just come out of the sea wet. Garry

Harold's layout was originally in Scarborough above an amusement arcade on the sea front. It's form here was very large and at times through the day children were invited into the middle to operate it. He also sold railway books and used to make loco noises into a microphone. Sammy was usually chased by the streamlined Coronation set after Harold had tried to swot him a few times with a rolled up newspaper. I saw the layout many times as I lived in York. The high level track crossed a large harbour with real water. At times his daughter Victoria would help him. A few years ago I did write to Victoria and talk about it. He moved to Brighton in the late 60's to retire but the layout there was not a patch on what it was in Scarborough due to the smaller area. Very soon Harold sold it off although kept Sammy and possibly a little more stock. Unfortunately this smaller version did not last and was broken up. I think she said Harold died in the late 70's early 80's but I cannot remember. While he was based in Scarborough Harold bought the very large Hornby Dublo 3-rail display layout possibly from Mecanno which had 5 main lines one of which used a hump shunting yard but Victoria has no idea what happened to that as it never got displayed in Brighton. This Dublo layout was based in an amusement arcade called the Olympic in Blackpool. Sammy was a great asset to the youngsters getting them interested in model railways like Thomas did on the TV in the late 80's. The layout obviously was coarse scale 3-rail and with being 3-rail allowed the two trains on the one track. It took considerable skill to operate while trying to swot Sammy at either end of the covered station. The layout in Scarborough could be viewed on all sides with the station at the front and the loco depot and turntable at the rear above the main running lines. I don't know if Harold actually ran the layout in Brighton himself as it certainly was not him when I travelled down there in the early 70's hoping to see what I had seen many times in Scarborough. The chap who said it was in its last year would not have been Harold but the new owner as he finished with it all by then. There are very few photos around but Victoria did say she would send me some but alas this did not happen and we lost touch. The portable part of the layout went to many exhibitions as I saw it in Manchester corn exchange and Leeds corn exchange venues. Garry

I don't put Tri-ang down and never have, I just say Hornby Dublo is my preferred choice. As for kids gimmicks I grew up in the 50's and 60's but they did not appeal to me I wanted trains to run like I saw them. I was about 8 when I saw Britannia in York and wanted the model but did have to wait a while. The mail coach idea was good and I had that along with the Dublo one. I will say the later Hornby one was the best until I got my rake of Exley ones which to me neither Tri-ang or Dublo could match. Exley were just to expensive in those days. I prefer the older Tri-ang EMU to the modern version and it is the same with the Met Cam DMU, the shorter one looks far better. Garry

I certainly didn't enjoy the "features". All smoke units were removed as they left an oily film over all the stock, my M7 door had to be glued as the hinges snapped, that awful unrealistic chuff chuff was removed, cab lights were removed if I wanted the bulbs for something, coach lights removed as hit and miss (flickered too much). More recently as locos were 3-railed magnadhesion magnets removed as they caused more drag on the steel wheels and also not needed on nickel track. I do like the XO4 motors though. Garry

Here is my K's 97xx although this one is in TT gauge. It came as a part done up, part soldered part glued, with broken bits, missing bits etc. I know the handrail is over scale, wire soldered to brass screws, but that is part of it for the period. Garry

It depends which Jinty you had Jim. The very first ones had "solid" wheels like the early Princess/Britannia/2-6-2 but were later turned out with sintered iron tyred and open spokes. These were all black and far better than the solid ones but were still quite coarse and the first M7's had these before Tri-ang-Hornby decided to use a plated tyre. These were still a coarse wheel but looked finer. The finer wheels did not appear for a long time afterwards on locos like the B17 etc when a very fine flanged centre wheel was adopted. I preferred the black sintered tyred ones. Garry

Don't forget about the wheels. Dublo's profile was the same when introduced in 1938 as when they ceased in 64 and those wheels without any modification run beautifully through modern finer Peco points today. Tri-ang's coarse scale ones would not run through the older coarser Peco points, or along the track without hitting the chairs, never mind the newer finer points. As for short locos even the streamlined Coronation suffered this, and, was fitted to the A3 chassis which apart from its missing components was an ER single slide bar attempt as opposed to the LMS twin style, mind you it did have a Dublo tender chassis which by then was under the Wrenn label. But, I do appreciate Tri-ang lovers liking their system. I very much doubt that todays modern locos from Hornby, Bachmann etc will still be running in 60 years time, no brushes to change on a motor so replacement motors needed, very few if any spares, plastic gear wheels that strip, valve gear so flimsy it is easily bent/broken. They may look a lot more to scale but durability will be an issue in my eyes. I do have a handful of modern Hornby and Bachmann locos I have 3-railed but they are no where near as good haulage wise as the old Tri-ang and Dublo chassis locos. Here are a few Tri-ang locos 3-railed. Garry

Talking of undersized coaches Tri-ang had those too with the initial "banana" bending ones and the next generation. The Princess was always under size with both loco and tender. Neither of these needed to be short with Tri-ang's massive 2 5/8" track centres Dublo was closer to scale at 2 1/8". You cannot compare 2-rail track to 3-rail track but with 2-rail to 2-rail comparison Dublo was way above Standard and Series 3 and super 4 versions. As for locos Dublo had already stopped making new items so Tri-ang were bound to have more and being plastic etc were bound to be cheaper. If you are going up to 64 then Dublo had the W/C which again had far superior valve gear. Tri-ang had Winston Churchill which was a nice loco but let down by the lack of a crosshead and plastic slide bars attached to the body serving no purpose. It took Tri-ang until the 70's with Evening Star to get a more realistic valve gear but the 2-6-2, Princess and Hall kept up with round rods for slide bars with metal folded around them. Even when Scotsman came out in 68 its valve gear was not a patch on the Dublo A4. Tri-ang always looked top heavy having their buffers a couple of mm higher. We all agree to differ, there is nothing wrong with that, and have our own thoughts which is why a few of my Tri-ang bodies are mounted on Dublo chassis's. I never put a Dublo body on a Tri-ang chassis though. I do like the Tri-ang chassis and have 3-railed many so I have nothing against Tri-ang I just prefer Dublo. Garry

You could see through Hornby Dublo coach windows before Tri-ang even came about. The Stanier LMS main line stock came out soon after the war along with the Duchess of Atholl. They even had a corridor partition which early Tri-ang did not. Short suburbans and LNER coaches had tin printed windows. In the late 50's as 2-rail had appeared all new coaches had see through windows. Dublo's locos being metal as opposed to plastic is probably why people thought they were better, plus they had a better variation in the 50's with the Duchess, A4, Castle, 8F, Standard tank as opposed to an undersized Princess with no proper valve gear just a rounded crosshead. All Dublo had a good representation of valve gear. Sorry, I like the old Tri-ang but like Dublo even more. Garry

Robin, The EMU and DMU are very easy to modify to run on modern Peco track. Here mine have been modified a little more to be 3-rail but as you can see they run fine. There is the Blue Pullman, EMU and DMU that all utilise the same bogie design. Garry

The cylinders are white metal I think but the slide bars are nickel silver and actually look to be round in section. Garry

Hi Ray, I think the keeper plate has a couple of lugs on to hold some, if not all, the wheels in place as the axle holes are slots to drop the wheels in and not the normal hole. Garry

I don't really see how to do this as the parts are supplied. I am thinking of making up a cross beam soldered to both cylinders and screwing that to the frames. IF, I can get hold of some matching wheels insulation would not be needed as the Romfords are rim insulated. The insulation here only becomes an issue if the wheels are axle insulated as per Tri-ang. I have a bit of time to wait with lots of other things to do so a few weeks or so might have some wheels turn up. As you can see the chassis is solid where the cylinders fit with just a hole for the locating pip on the cylinder casting. Garry