Hroth

Looking at all the legal hubbub above, there's a final bit of contract law to consider (IANAL, its ages since I studied the basics of contract law, etc) that "consideration" must have been exchanged, ie you've paid for the goods and they've been sent out. If its just a pre-order, and your card hasn't been debited, then there's no consideration! My concern now in that I preordered a P2 (R3171) when it was £67 and is now listed at £73. A whopping six quid rise on the preorder price! I'm just wondering what they'll bill me*. When it arrives..... As for Hattons in general, boxshifting and whatnot, I live on the Wirral and the online chat facility is just like going into the shop and talking about my requirements. The assistant can check whats in stock in the shop and arrange for stock to be transferred from the warehouse for a personal visit to Smithdown Road later in the day. My other "local" model shop is in Birkenhead. It doesn't have the stock, isn't as easy to communicate with and all things considered, its easier to use Hattons. * Being honest, I'm not too worried given whats on offer, even for a Railroad model!

Searching the warehouse for the mythical P2, torches piercing the swirling haze...... Railway modellers are noted for having vivid imaginations, so its not surprising that we're occupying ourselves making up even more convoluted stories based on supposition and misinformation whilst waiting for the train to arrive! And when mine does arrive, its going to be towing Gresley coaches through a layout thronged with GWR and LMS locos and rolling stock. Not to mention the dirty "death of steam" stuff and diesels with liveries from Green with no warning panels to full yellow noses and BR Blue. Its a long story...... Ahem. Ok officer, I'll come quietly......

The staged introduction of the various P2s could be down to the process of ramping up the new factories and workforce. The Railroad version is the simplest one to produce in terms of decoration and fiddly bits and it MAY be that R3171 has been a bit of a production guinea pig to ensure that the workforce is getting things right. Yes, we saw the pre-production P2 nearly a year ago now, but I feel that "problems" in getting to a high enough standard meant that other models (Bagnall, Silver Jubilee) were brought forward to occupy the production slots that were allocated for P2 production that would have otherwise been left vacant. If thats the way these things work! :-)

Wellllll..... Did you see that "humanitarian" (quick livery respray too!) truck on the news yesterday? Just a couple of boxes right at the back? I fear that they've all been regauged and sent to Moscow... On a note of sanity, the Sentinels arrived in batches too and we're now at the point where they're freely available. Lets not panic just yet! I'm just keeping my fingers crossed that I ordered my Railroad one early enough to be in that first batch!

Its not just high-end classic cars that need provenance. If you're restoring an ordinary car from the 50s (say a Ford Pop 103e) and want to retain the original number plates or get a set of "age related" plates from DVLC, then you need to prove that the chassis number is authentic and can be linked to a number of other numbers related to engine, drivetrain and so on. Its a minefield to be sure and sometimes you end up diving deep into the "Ship of Theseus" paradox. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus I think all that can be said is that an artefact is as original as its last day of service.

Theres some nice Sentinel 4wDM photos in the current issue of "Railway Bylines" (August 2014, p422-3), sadly mono not colour, in Tunnel Cement livery. There's also some interesting captions too.

We always left a glass of sherry and mincepies out for santa. He must have come ,the sherry and mincepies would be gone by morning! Must try it this year. Might get the P2!

Its the same chassis as the 06 (which also looks overscale) and the width over the buffer beams is HUGE. The buffer centres are ok, but if you compare the outer widths with that on the Sentinel and the Pannier, you can see where the excess lies. WHen rebuilding my layout recently, I tested the platforms with all sorts of wagons, coaches and locomotives to check that clearances were ok. No problems. Then I ran an 06 through at speed (ie at a throttle setting appropriate to a scale 30mph for most other locos), that damn buffer beam caught a platform ramp and not just derailed it, but sent it cartwheeling through the air. Luckily there wasn't anything fragile on the platforms at the time! The 06 is now on "restricted duties". The funny thing is, the 101 and the Caledonian Pug, alias Smokey Joe, don't have the same problem even though they share the chassis. I feel that the buffer beams are so wide so as to hide the steam loco cylinder block mouldings, which are certainly present on my 06. I also see that the holes for the handrail stanchions at the front of the 06 are also present on the Bagnall. Looks like "Design Clever" has worked its way to the bottom of the range! I DO like the little "RR" logo on the rear of the cab however - it reminds me of the "TR" logo that Triang used to put on their freelance locos in the late 50s-early 60s.

I was waiting for the email to arrive. Hattons have had the "on or after the 29th July" date up since at least the 8th July (when I got the last delivery information update...) and have stuck with it even though the Hornby Trade site has been saying "5th September" for R3171 since about the 22nd. (See post 834 by 87029). They DID change the proposed dates for R3207 and R3246TTS about then, but not R3171. I notice they're not even listing R3207 now! Hattons don't seem to keep an eye on these things, I suppose that they got jogged into action by a customer phoning over the weekend to ask when they could expect delivery.....

I recall coming up the Staffs&Worcs canal (the locks before you get to the blue brick railway viaducts at Wolverhampton). It was early on a beautiful July morning in the late 70s and we were aiming to get to Brewood AFTER the hire boats had left and BEFORE it got too hot. Anyhow, the locks filled with white(ish) foam that broke off in the breeze as we topped the lock, and tumbled away across the towpath. Someone must have dumped a quantity of unneeded industrial detergent into the waterway.... Mmmmmmmmmm... Frothy! Mind you, a Stirling SIngle would be nice, Didn't Bachmann do one for their US Thomas franchise? Carry on folks, I'm just waiting for the Hornby P2!!! (Though I may just pop down to Sainsbugs later today to see what all the fuss is about...) :-)

It would nice to see a new version of the B12/3 to a similar standard - its a very pretty light 4-6-0, and a long-time stalwart of the Hornby stable that should be reinstated.

I refer my honourable colleague to the answer given in post 5. Also both begin with B!!!

The TTS loco in the Hornby video appears to have most of the livery tweaks that seem to be applicable to the "main range" model; We'll know soon enough where it lies in the range when the Railroad version is released in a couple of weeks time. Where the sound is concerned, all that can be said is that the video gives an impression of what it might sound like, we don't get an appreciation of the "scale" of the sound on a real layout, something we'll only discover that when the TTS loco gets out into the wild. Its also going to be interesting to compare the sounds of the different TTS locos as they appear! Another thought is that the video shows an impressive looking model, let down by being demonstrated on a Hornby layout that was obviously laid out to illustrate the use of as many Hornby scenic components as possible and mainly shows that the P2 WILL go around 2nd Radius curves at speed! Hornby needs to commission a more realistic layout to demonstrate and sell their main range models more effectively. If they want us to pay more for good models, then they need to display them in a more appropriate setting, not one that is more suited to glossy 70s Pannier Tanks. I'm looking forward to the end of a long, repeatedly extended wait. I just hope we're not going to be let down...

I have found that performance can differ depending on the controller used. After some pretty spectacular running with Hornby trainset controllers (eg R965 and R8250), I found that both my Smokey Joe and my class 06 ran far more controllably with ancient H&M Duette and Clipper controllers. I wonder what they run like when converted to DCC?

You do have to remember that this period was also when Sanda Kan was going down the tubes in a spectacular manner. That Hornby managed to rescue Abercorn and get it out early this year is something to be thankful for. At least they didn't just cancel it. I'm looking forward to getting my P2 RSN (Real Soon Now!). I ordered the Railroad version and I suspect we'll see that first as it doesn't have the degree of painted/separately added detail that the main range version will have.

I mainly meant that after your re-engineering of the drivetrain and wheels, the plastic Percy chassis looked a bit out of place. As for Hornby re-engineering their chassis/motor combination, they've relied on it since 1978, when the 101 was introduced, so its probably paid for itself. And that was an upgrade of sorts itself for the old Triang 0-4-0 chassis. A modern upgrade for even the toy train market might well pay for itself by encouraging people to think that even if they've started with a "toy", it's a realistic toy with potential for hobbyists too. That dratted chassis is also under those strange chunky tanks R2940/3211/3212. It gets everywhere!

Probably because the chassis is also used in the Hornby Class 06 Diesel which IS a Barclay! btw After all that re-engineering, why didn't you do the decent thing and give it a new chassis too?

Its the same chassis as all the Railroad/Freelance industrial/Thomas 0-4-0 locos, the giveaway is the can motor visible under the running plate between the wheels, and the giant fixed Triang style couplings. It'll go like a scalded cat on full throttle. Fixes for the gearing have been published in various magazines recently, but they all seem a bit of a faff. Its a pity that Hornby can't do something a little more basic using a modern solution like the excellent mechanism that powers the Sentinel, rather than a chassis that first saw the light of day in the late 70's. Edit: General tidy up...

I've not yet been informed by Hattons about the RR version, though I've been expecting a communique for the past few weeks! They haven't updated the Railroad version arrival time yet, it's still showing 16th July, though its been an open secret that the delivery times had slipped a few weeks ago. In post 758, 87029 lists the Hornby Trade Site expectations as Early August for the RR version, late August for the main version and early September for the TTS version. It was like this for earlier "promised" dates, by the way things are going, the P2 is going to end up as an "early" Christmas present. 2014 or 2015 I'm not too sure yet. :-) Latest: Just got the Hattons email for R3171 quoting a date of "on or after Tuesday 29th July 2014", which is still a little before the latest trade info quoted above! (Edit for spelin, and an update...)

When I saw the "Silver Jubilee" trainset, it reminded me of the very old Triang "Princess Elizabeth" sets with the 6" coaches......

None. Have you seen the prices asked for even ordinary examples on Ebay?!! otoh, I DO have a Hornby Dublo "Silver King" (3-rail, naturally) which is now in honourable retirement.

Unless you have one of the Hornby 08s with the sprung rear axle that makes the loco bob about with its backside in the air!

Shhhhh!!! Thats supposed to be a secret! Going with the Alternative Universe Theory, I imagine Gresley and Collett getting together to run comparative tests between Cock O' The North and a 47xx between Paddington and Swindon as a sort of rerun for 1925 (No curves and plenty of clearance!). There! We can now run it with a rake of Triang clerestory coaches from "The Lord of the Isles".....

This is so, but trials for the locomotive were conducted on the ECML from Kings Cross to Doncaster for running in purposes*, so anyone modelling main line steam from Kings Cross to Doncaster in the mid-30s has an excuse.... One could always build a giant oval and model the Forth Bridge for the Cock 'O the North to run across. Now that would be an exhibition layout! (I'm getting one, though it'll look a bit out of place on a GWR/LMS/Early BR layout......) *Doncaster P2 Loco Trust website

Its been a perennial seller since Rovex first introduced Princess Elizabeth in 1950. I think there's been a few retoolings since then! I'll have to photographically compare and contrast my example from the R0 set (1955ish) with 46207 some time.....