Gingerbread

Should it have outside clasp brakes? There are various detail differences between the early stock of this type that had 3'6" wheels. The best information and pictures I have is for the one under an X4. One way to progress this very quickly would be to have a 10' w/b carcass with 8 shoe brakes plus linkages, and levers to which would need to have added the steel underframe conversion kit, RCH axle boxes, and 5' springs with link hangers from the 2mm SA to complete the outside appearance. Is that any good?

 

I also want some 6'4" coach bogie stretchers so I have to draw those. Maybe there is not much spare space after all. I'm still looking/thinking. Maybe a scorpion or something would be interesting. I don't want to hold things up too long because this computer design thing is taking over all my hobby time, and is something that I do for a day job too.

Yes, that is exactly the sort of thing I was hoping for. Only minor problem I can see with that plan is that some of the variants had non-central V-hangers, so I think the steel underframe conversions will need a little creative adjustment...

I put the underframe in as my request in the recent 2mm survey, but realised it was going to be very much a minority interest, so was starting to think about drawing up an etch myself.

Best plans I have are in the Iron Mink book by John Lewis, which isn't really a good prototype (only 10 built, whereas there were several hundred of each of the other types). There's also a good picture of the fruit van on the GWS site at http://www.didcotrai...7886pic_01.html but unfortunately it has the later style of brake levers.

I hadn't realised that the early Scorpions also used this underframe, but that would be a nice option too (though I would then need to find something suitable for a load - horse-drawn pantechnicon seems like a possibility). I was actually looking at the "grey" versions - Serpents - recently.

As you probably know, I'd also be interested in a few of the Dean bogies, so I look forward to progress on this project

David

... but that leaves me with space to fill and so am thinking about knocking up a drawing for a horse box or similar smaller vehicle.

Actually scratch the horse box for an idea I remembered that they have louvres atop their sides. Something else smaller. Hmm.

I've been looking round for a suitable chassis for the 1890-1910 GWR "brown" 4-wheelers - which includes most of the early horseboxes, plus early meat and fruit vans, (and a handful of iron minks). It was 10 foot wheelbase, 16 foot long, 3 foot 6 inch wheels and vacuum brakes (8 shoes), with some small variation between the different vehicles. Perhaps the Mica body would give something small and relatively simple (though to some extent it would duplicate the N Gauge Society one). I would be interested if you decided to pursue the idea (as well as a few of the siphons).

David

The in fills were added to allow the 16" lettering style to be applied. Before that they had 5" G.W.R on the upper planks. I've been thinking on how to include these without compromising what is there for anyone who wants them without. This isn't an omission or a mistake and they could be added reasonably easily by the builder.

 

You are right that the three arc roof is not three arc-ed enough. It should be flatter in the middle and more curved at the sides. I made my best guess at this and it looked okay on the CAD screen, or so I thought, but it doesn't look right. If you look again at the photographs of real ones you will also notice that the chunk of wood for the lamp iron to fix to on the end is on the wrong side. I have no idea how I got this wrong, but checking your own work is a minefield.

I am intending to model the changeover period - so most of rolling stock should be in 5" style, with a few new (or newly repainted) items in the larger style (which I think was 25" initially, before later settling on 16"). Therefore your existing design would suit me well - adding the missing infill in cases where I need it should be within my limited abilities

I will take your word for the wooden block being on the wrong side - I can't see this clearly either in your photo, or in any of my selection of photos of the originals (nor the corresponding drawings).

So far as I am concerned, the curvature of the roof is the only thing wrong which "needs" fixing.

And yes, I know that they were used for the area I intend modelling, so I'm definitely interested in a few when they are available.

David

Finished (if that's the right word) product looks good to me, despite whatever bugs you need to fix in the building process.

Only obvious thing that I can see wrong with it is that the lowest gap should be planked between the feet of the two 'X's - apparently to allow the painting of "G" and "W" there (according to Russell in Great Western Coaches Part One).

On a second check, the arc of the roof looks too rounded, should be flat in the middle (which would probably be a little more difficult to fix than adding the missing part-planks).

Look forward to seeing the final product at some future date.

David

Hope you manage to solve your mystery soldering problems - unfortunately I don't have any RSU experience so don't have any suggestions for you.

I am intrigued to know what etches you are developing, as I will probably be interested in 2mm GWR NPCS if/when they are available - siphons?

David

A few more pictures in the gallery at http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/gallery/album/1630-highclere/

For example:

The new point rodding - use of a flash camera defeated Missy's attempts to hide it at the dark end of the layout.

A sign to mislead the tourists?

David

Lovely models!

I particularly like the overenthusiastic application of lime on the cattle wagon, though I am not so sure about the heavy weathering of the "new" large logos on the iron minks - they must have been very early repaints into the new style!

I see that you are ignoring that wonderful enigma - GWR freight wagon red.... What shade was it? When did the livery change from red to grey? See a brief inconclusive discussion of this topic at http://www.gwr.org.uk/liverieswagonred.html

David

Sorry to read about your depressing problems.

I suggest a dual approach:

1) Put Highclere to one side for a little while, until inspiration strikes again.

Here follows a few thoughts, in case you've not had them already:

(i)I remember when I was looking at Witney Euston I thought that the baseboard joins were a bit unsightly, and tried a bit of lateral thinking - put a hedge up against one side of the join, and turn the join into a ditch! Wouldn't work across the full depth of the baseboard without looking too artificial, but would handle part of the problem, leaving other approaches to be used elsewhere. Not sure it's quite so suitable for you - your baseboard appears to be on a slope, where a ditch wouldn't be so appropriate.

(ii) Small buildings or removable scenery such as strips of grass to be laid down when assembled?

(iii)Perhaps a semi-transparent rather fuzzy strip of sky/trees to be placed over that join in the backstrip?

(iv) I recall from skimming through your book on the DNS there was mention of a goat at Highclere, so perhaps a tiny diorama of goat eating bushes to be placed across one of the joins. (Yes, I know that the goat would actually have been rather ancient by the date you have set Highclere, but it's all part of my cunning plot to persuade you to move backwards in time to real GWR steam ...)

2) Get started on that narrow-gauge layout you've been mentioning. Make it much smaller and more portable (shunting plank size) so you can take it to shows or demos more easily. Might want to make it a small interchange with standard gauge to allow you to show off some of your existing stock as well (and to make it of wider interest to the 2mm FS world).

David

[Edited to change sub-numbering which was translated into emoticons]

Is there anyway of e-mailing Bob Jones these days? I notice that his Blog successfully buries any means of contacting him or indeed finding out about his range.....

Look at the bottom of the pricelist in his blog around October 2008 - that email address was still valid when I tried it about 6 months ago.

David

I'm following this discussion with interest - though I'm still waiting for the release of the 2mm Association pannier chassis as the basis of my first locomotive.

I assume you are using one of the Nigel Lawton motors, which have the advantage of being much smaller (and cheaper) than their competitors, but the disadvantage of running much faster, so probably need higher gearing. Using Richard Benn's calculator from http://www.festiveroad.net/rail/software.htm I get the following:

motor speed 30,000 rpm (based on no-load speed for the micromotor)

gear reduction 70:1

driving wheel 8.5mm

actual speed 11.44 metres/minute

which at 2mm to the foot equates to 65 mph.

So at least in theory the desired reduction of 70:1 looks correct to me. Conversely the various Faulhaber motors which seem to be widely recommended have no-load speeds of about 15,000 to 20,000 rpm, which would seem to fit the more normal reduction of 30:1 to 40:1.

As another data point for the discussion, I heard that the 2mm chassis planned for the Ixion Manor is to use about 20:1 reduction gearing - which suggests to me that the Ixion motor must be unusually slow-running.

David

Thanks for the comments.

Steve and Nick - I had overlooked the colour distortion in films from that era, namely that reds would appear darker than expected. Should have realised that from the use of red lights in dark rooms.

Mark - I am intending to model the period 1905-1910, and intend to assume that the change in colour was around 1902 - so all wagons built after that date will be in grey, and those before will be in red (except the few that have been repainted since 1902 or thereabouts).

I still think that the original intention has merit - to try to find the relation between the shade of red of the original wagon and the shade of grey on the photo - even if the original method was flawed.

So I am now looking at photographs of locomotives from that period, studying the relationships between the dark green of the boiler and the two reds of buffers and underframes. At the moment I don't see any consistent pattern.

In many ways this just reinforces my earlier conclusion - you are free to choose your shade of grey or red during the period 1880 to 1910, and there will be inconclusive evidence both for and against your choice.

David

I think that the "lack of search facility at NRM" problem relates to the GWR (and probably other specific areas). As I understand it, the archives transferred from Swindon to NRM are not yet catalogued, though there are attempts to arrange for this to be done by volunteers. If they aren't sorted and catalogued, then they won't show up in the search engine.

I don't know if that would apply to the period in question here (ca 1967), but a search for "timetable" throws up examples from about 1960 for other regions, but not for the Western Region, in the form of "General/Sectional appendix to working timetable...", which suggests this is probably the case.

David

This gives me another excuse to delay the completion of my first wagon even further - need to conduct extended experiments to determine a suitable level of weight to add....

Pete - I think you may need to change your specs from 2mm or 7mm to the 4mm ones - it looked like Irish Whiskey to me (speaking as a non-expert)

David

I hope to have some pictures of 2mm GWR red wagons sometime soon - at present my pictures are rather too blurred for public display (though that has its advantages, in disguising their faults...).

I suspect that any attempt to distinguish between red and grey wagons by analysing old photos is going to struggle if the variation in shades of red is as wide as we are led to believe from the "light/dark/warm" descriptions, and presumably there would also be variation in shades of grey, as it faded with age and/or darkened with pollution.

However, that does suggest a couple of other possibilities that we could try:

1) Start with a monochrome photo of a wagon that we believe would have been red, and recolour that photo into red, to get an approximation of the original colour. Unfortunately my experiments haven't been very convincing so far.

2) Take a colour photo of wagons in our interpretation of GWR red, decolourise it (ie convert to monochrome), then compare with some old photos.

David

Nice model - it's on my list to try to build one or two in 2mm scale sometime soon, but with square ends as I'm aiming for about 1905-1910.

Colours: I am using Phoenix Precision Paints for my models, and currently experimenting with various mixtures of Red Oxide, Signal Red and Buffer Beam Red for my interpretations of GWR red - needs a bit of fading still. Fortunately the various descriptions of it as “dark”, “light” and “warm” leave plenty of scope for variation!

The Precision Paints "Untreated Wood" seems far too dark for me - approximately GWR grey - so I am trying various shades of light brown. "Dark Sand" sounds more like what I would have expected, so I will see if I can find something similar.

Ends: I think I have seen it suggested that the rounded ends were to help with sheeting, as Mickey assumes, but I can't find the reference now.

Book: I assume it is "A History of GWR Goods Wagons" by AG Atkins, W Beard, DJ Hyde and R Tourett. I think there are different versions - I have Volume 2 (drawings and photos) of the David & Charles version, which was about £10 recently. I think Volume 1 (general description and lot numbers) generally goes for about £20 - I don't have a copy of it yet. I don't recognise the page, so I assume it comes from Volume 1 (or the combined edition), but similar photos can also be found in "Great Western Wagons Appendix" by Jim Russell.

David

Devondynosaur - I think my skills are sufficient for the initial stages - building wagons and coaches from kits. Whether I can build good locomotive chassis remains to be seen - if not, I might have to modify my plans a bit, and my layout might finish up looking rather more like yours....

Don - Some of the "might-have-been" alternatives linked to Whitchurch, so the Cambrian nearly made it to Market Drayton. The reference to Armstrong 2-4-0T on the line also separately mentions the later 2-4-0 tender varieties - I don't think the reference is right, and 0-4-2T seems the most plausible interpretation. Certainly I have a photo of a 517 on that service from later times, but more importantly from a pragmatic perspective a suitable body kit and chassis for the 517 should be available shortly.

Agreed, the Armstrong goods is another one for the line, but I think outside frames will have to wait a little longer...

And yes, I inquired on the VAG about GWR around 1905, to find out what was available - result being the two loco chassis discussed above, plus the small prairie that is borderline in terms of timing and unfortunately seems not to have been used on the line. There's also a chassis for the Ixion Manor under development, but that's definitely too late for my period.

Rich - can't disagree with anything you have said there. If I stick with 4 wheels for the 4th Worsley coach, then I have a cleminson chassis free for another 6-wheel siphon.

David

Thanks for the kind words everybody.

Ian (Landlord) - Yes, it's fairly ambitious, but I hope that I have broken it down into sensible steps, with the "easy" ones at the beginning and the "hard" ones later where I hope my improved skills will make them more manageable. There's plenty of 2mm FS modellers around, so I'm sure that when you start your own 2mm project there will be lots of help and advice on offer.

Steve - I've been watching your progress too, still looking for gingerbread-flavoured jellybabies for my line...

Pete - The line closed before your beloved blue diesels were around, but I did see a few early green diesels during its latter days. Actually it was quite interesting at that time - electrification of the west coast main line led to diversion of traffic onto the Market Drayton line around 1960-5, including the Pines Express (Manchester-Bournemouth) during 1962-3. I assume that the china clay traffic from Cornwall to the Potteries would normally have gone via Shrewsbury to Crewe, then over the Knotty line to Stoke, so unfortunately I don't think much would have gone through Market Drayton. It might have been different in some of those alternate realities that I mentioned...

Missy - I doubt that I will have much to contribute to any partnership on making those engines, but look forward to trying. I have recently been investigating options for GWR cattle wagons, so perhaps that might be of interest to you for your new cattle dock.

Rich - Agreed. I've seen a suggestion that one of the Worsley 4-wheel coaches was actually a 6-wheeler, and have bought a cleminson 6-wheel chassis for that (and another for a 6-wheel siphon). Saw David Eveleigh at Watford recently and he said he has some etches on order, for his coach underframes, early toad, and small prairie, so I hope to be able to add them to my growing pile of work-in-progress sometime soon. Best answer I've come up with so far for the early (6 feet 4 inch) Dean bogies is to start with the Association 7 foot generic bogie, but adding suitable detailing is going to be a challenge...

David

Building easitrack is easy - points are a bit more challenging, but you can just build a couple of feet of plain track for testing of your models.

Although it's probably of little interest to you, drop-in wheel replacement is now available to convert many diesel models from N to 2mm.

Replacement wheels for rolling stock to convert from N to 2mm are readily available (you just need to ensure you get the ones with the appropriate axle length).

There is a highly-regarded wheel-turning service, though I've heard that it's difficult to satisfactorily turn down the wheels on some steam locomotives for various reasons.

I'm building a few wagons at present to improve my skills (and confidence), then I will be building a simple 0-6-0 tender engine.

General recommendation I received was to build one of Bob Jones' Jinty 0-6-0 tanks for my first venture - that didn't suit my preference for GWR, and unfortunately I don't think the pannier that missy suggests is generally available yet, so I went for the second choice, the 0-6-0 and tender - I chose the Bob Jones chassis, though I don't think its wheelbase quite matches any of the prototypes I want to copy.

I think it is certainly worth joining the 2mm Association - that gives you access to their components, and links to various independent suppliers. I'm sure you have found their web site by now, but for the benefit of other interested readers it is http://www.2mm.org.uk/

You might also like to look at the experience of John Birkett-Smith who has a couple of N layouts using largely handbuilt or heavily modified locomotive stock. I understand that he finds it difficult to obtain components for scratchbuilding in N, and appears to use some from the 2mm Association. His blog is at

http://small-but-perfectly-formed.blogspot.com/

Good luck with it!

David

A few comments - take them with a suitable pinch of salt as I have yet to build my first loco chassis:

1) If you've not already done so, read through the recent VAG thread where Steve's proposals to use alternative gears (due to the recommended ones being out of stock in the shop) drew comments from numerous quarters.

2) Comments there suggested that using a non-helical gear to connect to the worm would be a bad thing (though it wasn't very clear whether the proposed gears were helical or not).

3) I don't think Steve's suggestion of switching the 28T and 30T gears will work - different inside diameters, so the 28T will need opening out to fit over the "sleeve" on the driving wheel axle, and the 30T will probably need a similar "sleeve" adding onto its axle.

4) I suspect with the relatively small driving wheel, you will not want an overall gearing as high as the original design. I've seen a suggestion that about 50 to 1 will work fairly well in most cases - with smaller wheels it corresponds to a lower top speed, which makes sense. However, some of the Nigel Lawton motors have a very high speed, and higher gearing would be wise for them.

David

Agreed with the general layout suggested by Julia.

I'm slightly sceptical of the 37:12 reduction on the second stage, on several grounds, so I would suggest you double check the following:

1) 2mm Association Yearbook gives 9.91 mm as the outside diameter of the 37 tooth gear if it is 100dp. Will that clear the rails at a crossover? (What diameter wheels are you using?)

2) No entry in the Yearbook for a corresponding 12 tooth gear - there's a 13 tooth on 64 dp, otherwise the smallest is 14 tooth on 100 dp, and both the metric ranges.

3) More generally, your 12 tooth gear will have a diameter of about 1/3 of the 37 tooth gear. I'm not convinced you can simultaneously fit the larger one inside the diameter of the driving wheel and the smaller one over the usual 3mm "sleeve" (to avoid the censor's wrath). Perhaps you are using another source for the gears, but the same general dimensional restrictions apply.

I would have expected 34 and 14 teeth to be the best you could manage, which still gives a pretty impressive overall reduction of 28:1 first stage and about 2.5:1 second stage, so about 70:1 overall.

David

Details of the Midland are outside my area of interest, but this looks plausible by comparison with the GWR which I do know quite well:

Until about 1902, height of covered vans was about 10 feet 6 inches.

Subsequently height was about 11 feet 9 inches (apart from a few exceptions of about 11 feet 3 inches or 12 feet 3 inches).

For comparison, brake van height remained constant at about 11 feet (excluding chimney).

Interestingly, there were a few open wagons which were almost as high as the covered vans - the "provender wagons" were about 10 feet high, with sides of 10 planks, and were used for transporting hay and straw for the use of GWR horses.

David