MOD Train - Warflats

Greetings,

First post here - and a virgin modeler into the bargain. Just bought 4 of the GRAmodel OO gauge warflats and will be starting to build soon. They came with Ratio bogies but I lack the confidence to build them - could anyone recommend a commercial bogie that will do the trick? I'm trying to recreate a Tank Troop of Centurions on their way to Warcop/Castlemartin for a firing camp.

Grateful for any tips on construction - and if anyone knows where I can get a 1:72 Centurion ARV, I'd be really grateful.

Thanks,

FF

Welcome to the forum FF

I'm reasonably certain that Centurions are too big to fit on the UK railway network even on a Warwell rather than a Warflat. This is true even of relatively 'small' things such as Scorpions which do, only just, fit on a Warwell without clouting the infrastructure. Someone must produce a Centurion of the appropriate scale but the only one I know of, by Cromwell Models, seems not to be currently available.

The Ratio kit is pretty straightforward with all of three components per bogie and since you have four wagons worth, you could do worse than to simply have a go. If that doesn't work out (though there's no reason why it should not) then Cambrian Models sell something that would be near enough and these are one piece mouldings:

http://www.cambrianm.../4mmbogies.html

Assuming that plastic wheels are supplied with the Ratio bogies, bin them and replace with metal ones - Hornby and Bachmann spares are the most readily available and brass 'pinpoint' bearings can be had from a variety of suppliers. If you pursue the Cambrian option you will need to buy wheels/bearings anyway.

Hop this helps

Adam

Adam,

Thanks for the tip. I think I'll 'have a go' first - and I take the point about the wheels. Will polystyrene cement be sufficient or is there a better glue?

I know the Centurions would be out of gauge - but they must have been moved by rail somehow? It won't be a problem on my layout. The last military train I was on in Germany (which I had to sign for!) we had Challengers on DB flats and their tracks overhung the flats by a good 6 inches on either side. I know the German loading gauge is bigger though...

I think I have established that I need to stick white metal to resin - is poly cement OK for this, too?

Last question - better to paint before construction or once complete?

Thanks,

FF

Sadly, all the British MBTs from the Centurion onwards are out-of-gauge in the UK; I think the last one that was rail-portable was the Cromwell. They were carried by rail for BAOR in Germany- the Warflats used had extensions about 1' wide bracketed out from the sides. 81 of these wagons were brought back to Eurotunnel Cheriton by rail, then transferred to road for onward carriage.

A Centurion BARV conversion kit is available from Matador:- http://www.matadormodels.co.uk/76b/lists%2076b31-45.htm

Not sure how tanks were taken to and from Redmire; those for Castlemartin may have been taken in by LCT to Pembroke Dock. I would imagine there were dedicated pools of tanks kept at these locations for training.

I remember when the Germans went to Castlemartin for the first time, back in the mid-1960s- a large number of helicopters passed over our house, heading west.

On the subject of Warflats, the WW2 version is still kicking around and in use by the MOD. Now I can't recall if they're main line registered, but there are certainly a couple of dozen of them still in use and in pretty good condition in Marchwood - the last few I had occasion to look at a year or two ago still had 'LMS' worksplates affixed to them.

On the subject of Warflats, the WW2 version is still kicking around and in use by the MOD. Now I can't recall if they're main line registered, but there are certainly a couple of dozen of them still in use and in pretty good condition in Marchwood - the last few I had occasion to look at a year or two ago still had 'LMS' worksplates affixed to them.

I think the 'as built' ones lost their main-line tickets when the air-braked ones arrived. However, I believe some of the ex-BAOR ones, which had air brakes and Y25 bogies (but which were originally of WW2 vintage), were main-line registered after the extensions had been removed.

Sirs

The Centurian is too heavy for the Gramodels type warflat, as well as being out of gauge. As far as I'm aware Centurians never traveled British rail. When built most were road shipped to port and then onto Germany. Live fireing exercises were also conducted in Canada

As for modern flats I would very much like to build one but the pictures I've seen only seem to show the underside in deep shadow and therefore impossible to work out the detail. What I need is a picture of an accident, but as always you can never find one when you need it!

I'm also looking for a ramp wagon

Sallydog

nice models Gareth.

takes me back a few years, can feel the bumps on my head from climbing in and out of the flippin things.

Will polystyrene cement be sufficient or is there a better glue?

 

I think I have established that I need to stick white metal to resin - is poly cement OK for this, too?

Poly cement will be fine for Ratio bogies.

For whitemetal to resin I'd use either superglue or exopy (Araldite or similar) depending on the size of the parts to be joined. Its worth cleaning both parts, I'd use Cif and an old toothbrush, to make sure that the parts are free of grease and, in the case of resin, mould release agent.

Sirs

The Centurian is too heavy for the Gramodels type warflat, as well as being out of gauge. As far as I'm aware Centurians never traveled British rail. When built most were road shipped to port and then onto Germany. Live fireing exercises were also conducted in Canada

 

As for modern flats I would very much like to build one but the pictures I've seen only seem to show the underside in deep shadow and therefore impossible to work out the detail. What I need is a picture of an accident, but as always you can never find one when you need it!

 

I'm also looking for a ramp wagon

Sallydog

Ramp wagon photos http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/modaramp

MODA flats http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/modawarflatpfb

Paul Bartlett

Hello all,

Hope you don't mind a quick thread hi-jack!

I've got a couple of the Parkwood Warflats sitting in my gloat box that I'd originally bought for conversion into Coil Ws, but having seen this thread I quite fancy building them in their MOD guise. Can anyone tell me what sort of vehicles would be suitable for them in the early 70s? Is/was there any rail connected MOD facilities in South Wales that would of recived such vehicles and wagons during the period?

Many thanks,

Pix

Is/was there any rail connected MOD facilities in South Wales that would of recived such vehicles and wagons during the period?

 

Pixie

The most active of the MoD ranges in South Wales is/was undoubtedly Castlemartin, Pembs.

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I believe MoD trains still run (infrequently) to either Haverfordwest or Pembroke conveying AFVs for exercises there.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castlemartin_Training_Area

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Try Rob/Bob Masterman's YouTube channel, he has footage of an EWS Cl.66 shunting Warflats/Warwells at Haverfordwest.

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Another range was at Sennybridge around Mynydd Epynt.

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In the 1990s the odd MoD train ran to Cwmbargoed carrying AFVs for exercises there.- not exactly a convenient railhead.

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In a former life (pre-retirement)we would be roped into joint multi-service anti-terror operations, which whilst not employing AFVs did utilise a variety of other lightweight thin skinned vehicles.

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I recall one exercise in the late 90s which started out in the Welsh Marches (that'll give it away) and ended up with a sort of 'shoot out' on a hijacked train at Burrows Sidings - IIRC one of the 'Dutch' liveried Cl.47/9s brought the stock down.

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Brian R

Hello all,

 

Hope you don't mind a quick thread hi-jack!

 

I've got a couple of the Parkwood Warflats sitting in my gloat box that I'd originally bought for conversion into Coil Ws, but having seen this thread I quite fancy building them in their MOD guise. Can anyone tell me what sort of vehicles would be suitable for them in the early 70s? Is/was there any rail connected MOD facilities in South Wales that would of recived such vehicles and wagons during the period?

 

Many thanks,

 

Pix

Stephen,

The only places I can think of in South or West Wales that might have handled MoD traffic on Warflats or Warwells in the early 1970s were Pembroke Dock/Haverfordwest (for Castlemartin Ranges) and Llandovery (for Sennibridge). In both cases, it would be normally be soft-top vehicles and RE plant, rather than AFVs. I must admit that I can't remember seeing many, however, though David Larkin has published photos of them at Llandovery (the loads were a road-roller and another piece of plant on Warwells)

There was another site that handled traffic on unmodified ex-WD Warflats, however- British Steel's Landore Foundry used them to carry large ingot moulds to steelworks around the UK. If you wanted to model these, a couple of the 'Small Ingot Moulds' from RT Models, one over each bogie, would be ideal.

Brian/Brian,

Belated thanks for the as-always-excellent information, a recent trip to Bovington reminded me that I'd very rudely not thanked you for your input. My apologises!

Cheers,

Pix

Thank you for the additional information regarding Ramp Wagons. I'd actually like to look underneath a real one Beverley had one but seems to have disappeared and all the pictures show the underside in shadow

sallydog

I understand that the Beverley ramp wagon went to COD Bicester, which effectively puts it out of reach for research purposes.

Tony

Hello there, just joined the board and first post as well

This thread is very relevant to my interests. I'm an occassional railway modeller and i'm interested in making a small MOD depot for a corner of a future layout. It's early days yet but i've built a Thomas Hill shunter, some 432's/Saracens/Sabres/Land Rovers etc, and i'm looking into getting some modern warwells/flats as the era i'd like to model is post 2000.

After some disasterous attempts with the Genesis kit's i'm patiently awaiting the Wild Boar kits that are on the horizon.

My question is to those who are far more in the know what the typical make up of an MOD vehicle transport train would be both long and short? What kit kind of logistical rail movements are made up of too. VGA's? Intermodals? etc. Any help would be much appreciated.

Vehicle trains seem to be for two sorts of job.

One is the deployment of units for exercises, and would normally consist of a number of both Warflats and Warwells, depending on the vehicles being transported. These trains always seem to have a VGA in the consist, probably to carry chocks and such-like.

The other sort of working is of vehicles to the various repair depots, such as Ashchurch, and might sometimes comprise only a couple of wagons. Here's an example from Peter Tandy's site:-

http://www.petertandy.co.uk/59201_6B36_M_Ash_110311.jpg

Other stores may be moved in VGAs, OCAs (like the 'soft-tops' in the previous photo) or, increasingly, in containers. Here's a photo of a short MoD stores working, all containerised, again from PT's site:-

http://www.petertandy.co.uk/66058_Ash_MOD_280312

Whilst the containers shown are purpose-built MoD ones, normal ISO boxes are also used. Most of these simply have the original owner's name and registration details painted out, and new lettering added, presumably as they're considered to be 'one journey only'.

Thanks for the advice!

I do know that my father worked for Freightliner in the 70s and 80s and he often used to work up at Warcup loading and unloading AFVs from the CVRT family (Scorpions/Scimitars/etc) into standard containers, into which they were a very tight fit! I seem to recall that he said that the containers were loaded over the bogies of the 60ft vehicles with no container in the central spot? Not much of a military train in terms of spectacle I suppose...

I do know that my father worked for Freightliner in the 70s and 80s and he often used to work up at Warcup loading and unloading AFVs from the CVRT family (Scorpions/Scimitars/etc) into standard containers, into which they were a very tight fit! I seem to recall that he said that the containers were loaded over the bogies of the 60ft vehicles with no container in the central spot? Not much of a military train in terms of spectacle I suppose...

During the Balkan crisis in the mid-1990s, a regiment of light armour of this type was shipped, by block train, from the UK to Bari (Italy), for onward transport by sea. You wouldn't have known what was in the boxes unless you'd been told- there wasn't an 'X Reconnaissance Regiment on Tour' headboard or similar. There was also an entire Field Hospital shipped out in similar fashion- the containers becoming part of the structure. Don't forget that the ISO box originated after the Korean War, largely as a means of improving military logistics.

Many operational bases are built from ISO containers.

They can be used as stores, even parts of the perimeter Walls.

Never heard of armour being moved in them though, every day a school day.

Are there any good resources for more picture examples of MOD workings. As well as what FC posted very helpfully, I found the Wensleydale gallery on photopic which was very useful. But the more I can find the better!

Have you seen my pictures of Warflats and Warwells in my collection of Flat wagons?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/brianews/sets/72157627008284776/