BR Mk. 1 BG's with "Express Parcels" lettering started when?

Anyone know when this lettering was introduced? As per the photo, used on some BR blue/grey (and I think plain blue) BG's. Am I right in thinking it was around 1970 or was it much later? Thanks.

Any thoughts anyone?

Not certain, but some time during the mid 70s onwards? The corporate manual defined the brand as 'Rail Express Parcels' in 1969, and GUVs appear to have been branded 'Express Parcels' in the early 70s.

I guess BGs were less likely to be branded due to thier use as luggage/guards vans rather than dedicated parcels carriers. May be it coincided with the introduction of HST, releasing BGs from front line services to replace 4-wheel NPCCS. Just a thought...

Dave

Thanks Dave, interesting thought. I remember seeing these BGs in the early 80s quite a lot, even turning up on Euston passenger trains sometimes, suspect the Hornby one I bought may be too late for "Crinan" (set c.1970) but would be great to know for sure before I remove the lettering. . . :-)

Plain Blue BG's had appeared by 1971. The Railway Observer had a list of 20 "New Traffic Vans" in Blue livery, but they don't mention if they had the "Express Parcels" branding. I can't remember seeing any in Blue Grey with "Express Parcels"  until the 80's.

FYI the list of Blue BG's in early 71 is as follows. (As noted in the Rly observer).

80513/31/46/97.

80686/9.

80731/55/74.

80826/56/63.

80929/46/50.

81048. 81250. 81343. 81417. 81569.

None where noted as having any modifications so where Vac braked on BR1 bogies.

Paul J.

Plain Blue BG's had appeared by 1971. The Railway Observer had a list of 20 "New Traffic Vans" in Blue livery, but they don't mention if they had the "Express Parcels" branding. I can't remember seeing any in Blue Grey with "Express Parcels" until the 80's.

FYI the list of Blue BG's in early 71 is as follows. (As noted in the Rly observer).

80513/31/46/97.

80686/9.

80731/55/74.

80826/56/63.

80929/46/50.

81048. 81250. 81343. 81417. 81569.

 

None where noted as having any modifications so where Vac braked on BR1 bogies.

 

Paul J.

Thanks Paul for that very useful list, looks like its going to be a strip the lettering or full repaint job then, probably the former.

The earliest photos of ANYTHING carrying "Express Parcels" branding that I have found in my not too extensive library thus far is a LNER pattern BR SPV (ex fish van) E87160 in 1972 and Mk.1 CCT (M94411) noted as working the 'Brute Circuit" trains in 1977 with "the Express Parcels lettering not usually found" so perhaps it was only then in ascendency. I have a photo of an all blue Mk.1 BG on the Oban line in 1972 but without such lettering, and the same goes for all the blue GUV and CCT vans that I can find around this time.

Also found early blue/grey BG conversions such as 1968 Trailer Luggage Vans (TLV) to work with SR MLV's (renumbered S68201 - S68206, SR waist height MW pipes fitted), also another BG (M81387) with all the door droplights plated over (noted as post 1971); both these retained BR1 bogies and were repainted blue/grey but without "Express Parcels" lettering.

The 'Express Parcels' lettering was around by 1972 on ex-works GUVs, and to a lesser extent, BR CCTs, as MOPOK issued a set of transfers around then covering current 'Rail Blue' van markings.

Some GUVs definitely carried Express Parcels in 1973 as seen in this photo: https://www.flickr.com/photos/98636950@N04/10817782666/in/photolist-htVXUf-j786Tx-oWpGMP-8jFCSr-9U2zfK-8jFEdM-4RPfxz-qCyiwm-qmjkqh-6Jizns-q4zcGV-9wfU8U-ekabkz-8jFFPa-e2Ng5g-s3erwL-DimBa-q5DnEJ-mi7BK-7EWmdK-iZZ2Qz-dPDMvC-cVzdz7-dqYsQh-dTJpf9-iZXC6z-j12sLf-iZXDnx-iZZMMy-iZZNxw-ddTRDE-iZZHaY-j12CZw-cSq8Ky-q5vq5r-iZZTQW-7MLWxV-iZXLFv-j12w2d-b7fcwa-9FHXcv-iZXKVH-iZZRK3-uRrcb7-7C5joY-pqrqJV-69LjUg-4Cd1QP-Dqchnn-bLSJxi. The earliest photo of a CCT with Express Parcels I have seen on Flickr is from 1975.

I too have a couple of BGs that carry Express Parcels, one of which has had it removed already. Modelling in 1976 I have been looking for evidence of it being carried and have found none so far. I'm pretty sure I'll be removing it from the second BG as well.

Plain Blue BG's had appeared by 1971. The Railway Observer had a list of 20 "New Traffic Vans" in Blue livery, but they don't mention if they had the "Express Parcels" branding. I can't remember seeing any in Blue Grey with "Express Parcels"  until the 80's.

FYI the list of Blue BG's in early 71 is as follows. (As noted in the Rly observer).

80513/31/46/97.

80686/9.

80731/55/74.

80826/56/63.

80929/46/50.

81048. 81250. 81343. 81417. 81569.

 

None where noted as having any modifications so where Vac braked on BR1 bogies.

 

Paul J.

I think they meant News traffic, ie newspapers. Some blue BGs later carried that branding but others were unbranded:

M80560_Doncaster_20-6-80 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

Only blue/grey branded BG I have in my photo collection is this one from 1980:

W80626_Reading_1980 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

Robert Carroll's site has this:- https://www.flickr.com/photos/robertcwp/8233903717/in/album-72157603653607671/ Though taken in 1980, I'd venture that it's some time since the vehicle was painted.

Then there's this :- https://www.flickr.com/photos/robertcwp/3550825821/in/album-72157603653607671/, taken as far back as 1967, which suggests they had the transfers, but didn't know which way round to apply them.

The 'Express Parcels' lettering was around by 1972 on ex-works GUVs, and to a lesser extent, BR CCTs, as MOPOK issued a set of transfers around then covering current 'Rail Blue' van markings.

Funny enough I had that Mopok sheet in the late 80s, forgot about it until you mentioned it. Thanks! :-)

Funny enough I had that Mopok sheet in the late 80s, forgot about it until you mentioned it. Thanks! :-)

Wish they'd re-issue it; there were lots of useful details.

Wish they'd re-issue it; there were lots of useful details.

Agreed, MTK did a useful and similar sheet with useful Freight stock of the period markings too. The PC (now HMRS) sheet 15 is very good I find for blue / blue & grey coaching stock.

Robert Carroll's site has this:- https://www.flickr.com/photos/robertcwp/8233903717/in/album-72157603653607671/ Though taken in 1980, I'd venture that it's some time since the vehicle was painted.

Then there's this :- https://www.flickr.com/photos/robertcwp/3550825821/in/album-72157603653607671/, taken as far back as 1967, which suggests they had the transfers, but didn't know which way round to apply them.

Wow, that second one is quite a find!

According to the TOPS codes stated in the Railway Modeller in the 1980s NBV was listed on 1st December 1978 as being for Bogie Van, Gangwayed, Brute (RM February 1983 edition) but had gone by the author's second listing dated 4th May 1981.

The 1976 RCTS Coaching Stock book only distinguishes Newspaper Vans in the list of Mk1 BGs but the 1978 RCTS Coaching Stock book has 79 BGs as brute circuit vehicles. The majority are Eastern Region but there are Midland and Western Region ones as well. It may well be that the idea was to have a dedicated fleet that was suitably branded but the 1979 Platform 5 Coaching Stock pocket book (dated June 1979) does not list the NBV code. In addition, the photo of W80626 shows that it still has step boards under the doors even though these were removed from the GUVs to assist brute loading. By the way, W80626 is one of the BGs listed in the 1978 book as a brute circuit vehicle (the photo shows that it also carries the yellow "brute circuit only" circle).

I'm guessing that the idea of dedicated BGs for brutes was dropped in 1979 though some vehicles obviously did not lose their NBV codes immediately. W81018 (also listed as brute circuit in 1978) is shown here still carrying NBV in 1984 http://80srail.zenfolio.com/p771632351/h20fa76f2#h20fa76f2

Edit: W80626 and W81018 are both listed as NAV in the 1979 Platform 5 Coaching Stock pocket book.

2nd edit: Bachmann's BG with Express Parcels branding is M80955, seen here in December 1984 but stating NAV http://80srail.zenfolio.com/p771632351/h20fa76f2#h34ecef01. M80955 is also listed as a brute circuit vehicle in 1978.

See also E80825 http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brnpccs/h10b4c27#h10b4c27 (unknown TOPS code), E81013 http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brnpccs/h10b4c27#h1aa4d683 (as NBV) and M81125; Rolling stock recognition 1 - Coaching Stock, 1st edition, C J Marsden (as NBV). Again, all of these three are listed as brute circuit in 1978.

The 2nd TOPS booklet, April 1974 has NBV for the Brute BGs.

Paul

Wow, that second one is quite a find!

If the date supplied is genuine, but even so I doubt there were many with that lettering.

BG_Gresley_LeedsCity_1967 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

Branding is Parcels Express. I think the number is E70766E but it might be E70768E.

Just had a look at the full-size scan of W80626 and there is no doubt about the number or the NBV marking. The yellow circle has "BRUTE CIRCUIT ONLY" written in it.

The 'Express Parcels' lettering was around by 1972 on ex-works GUVs, and to a lesser extent, BR CCTs, as MOPOK issued a set of transfers around then covering current 'Rail Blue' van markings.

I believe Tony was thinking more of the SPV (Fish van) Express Parcels that he photographed in 1970 http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brfish

Paul

Coincidentally, last evening I was reading an article in a 1970 issue of Modern Railways regarding Brute circuit working.

.

The article showed several GUV vans in blue livery, behind a Cl.37 and forming the East Anglia Brute Circuit working, branded "Express Parcels"

.

The photo would date from 1969.

.

Brian R

Interesting posts gents, thanks for all the contributions. So it seems Brute circuit vans (and I'm guessing Brute trolleys came in in the mid to late 60s) were initially the main recipients of Express Parcels branding. I know SPV's received the lettering at the latest by the very early 70s, not sure how they fitted in with this traffic, if at all?

Still hoping someone can produce evidence for a blue/grey Mk.1 BG with this lettering early 70s, though I suspect generally the Mk.1s were lettered thus after replacing the older LNER/LMS etc vehicles, and then mainly the all blue examples, initially at least?

I'm sure there has been a thread on this subject before, but I am damned if I can find it.

It was useful because it got into details of upper and lower case for the lettering, plus the variations of Rail Express Parcels, Parcels Express, Newspapers and Express Parcels lettering on certain vehicles.