RMweb Premium Physicsman Posted May 25, 2015 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted May 25, 2015 Looks like Mother Nature has found her paintbox Peter. I've seen and photographed some beautiful sunsets around Morecambe Bay over the years but that is just sensational! Well done you for spotting it! Regards Bill What I'd like to see are some good photos of Noctilucent Clouds. Very high (50km+) and made of thin sheets of ice crystals. Not a common sight, and hard to photograph. Anyone up for a challenge? And btw, if anyone wishes to continue the discussion on distance in space, please do so! Jeff 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Kazmierczak Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 I'll get my balloon out..... 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jock67B Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 (edited) Afternoon Jeff, Saw some fantastic 'Noctilucent' clouds in Russia, Finland and Sweden on our grand tour but I can't remember if I took any images or not. Dusk is the best time to catch them and if anyone doesn't know what they look like, there is a fantastic image taken across Stokholm harbour if you simply Google 'noctilucent clouds' you should see it! Distance in space is so difficult to comprehend as I've discovered over the years of trying to teach children and grandchildren about the subject. A good spatial awareness helps as I found that my son, two of the grandsons and one granddaughter out of the twelve or so that I've helped with homework over the years have been able to grasp the enormity of the subject! The four I mention also have good sense of direction and map-reading ability, something I've always been lucky enough to be gifted with. I often wonder if the introduction of different units to simplify the work of scientists and astronomers has moved the subject beyond the comprehension of many. When you understand feet, inches or metres and centimetres as well as miles and kilometres, it is hard to make the giant leap to 'light years'. When you introduce the concept of a 'parsec' which is equal to 3.26 light years, and try to relate it to common measurements - 3.0857x10(16) metres, 1.9174x10(13) miles, or 2.0626x10(5) Astronomical Units (supposedly introduced to make distances easier to understand!), you can see why such discussion moves beyond the comfort zone of lots of people. By the way, the figures 10(X) equal '10 to the power of' which I haven't yet figured how to do on my iPad! That should get the subject rolling Jeff, who is going to be the first to post a diagram of how the 'parsec' was conceived as a mathematical device? Kind regards, Jock. PS Did I notice some naughty people mentioning trains. HaHaHa as Andy would say! Edited May 25, 2015 by Jock67B 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythocentric Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 What I'd like to see are some good photos of Noctilucent Clouds. Very high (50km+) and made of thin sheets of ice crystals. Not a common sight, and hard to photograph. Anyone up for a challenge? And btw, if anyone wishes to continue the discussion on distance in space, please do so! Jeff Not noctilucent clouds but I can get the ball rolling and start at the bottom (bart and fubble?). Cloud formation in action is a common sight over the Bay in summer (the hotter the better) as evaporation rises to form some quite sizable clouds. This example is just beginning it's journey inland on a light south-westerly breeze but beware still days when they can reach critical mass and produce a sudden, sometimes very heavy downpour for a whole 10 minutes before starting the process over. Regards Bill 7 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Kazmierczak Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 (Whispering) Don't mention Cumulonimbus clouds, as someone'll think we're talking about Deltics. (Finish whispering) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Physicsman Posted May 25, 2015 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted May 25, 2015 Afternoon Jeff, Saw some fantastic 'Noctilucent' clouds in Russia, Finland and Sweden on our grand tour but I can't remember if I took any images or not. Dusk is the best time to catch them and if anyone doesn't know what they look like, there is a fantastic image taken across Stokholm harbour if you simply Google 'noctilucent clouds' you should see it! Distance in space is so difficult to comprehend as I've discovered over the years of trying to teach children and grandchildren about the subject. A good spatial awareness helps as I found that my son, two of the grandsons and one granddaughter out of the twelve or so that I've helped with homework over the years have been able to grasp the enormity of the subject! The four I mention also have good sense of direction and map-reading ability, something I've always been lucky enough to be gifted with. I often wonder if the introduction of different units to simplify the work of scientists and astronomers has moved the subject beyond the comprehension of many. When you understand feet, inches or metres and centimetres as well as miles and kilometres, it is hard to make the giant leap to 'light years'. When you introduce the concept of a 'parsec' which is equal to 3.26 light years, and try to relate it to common measurements - 3.0857x10(16) metres, 1.9174x10(13) miles, or 2.0626x10(5) Astronomical Units (supposedly introduced to make distances easier to understand!), you can see why such discussion moves beyond the comfort zone of lots of people. By the way, the figures 10(X) equal '10 to the power of' which I haven't yet figured how to do on my iPad! That should get the subject rolling Jeff, who is going to be the first to post a diagram of how the 'parsec' was conceived as a mathematical device? Kind regards, Jock. PS Did I notice some naughty people mentioning trains. HaHaHa as Andy would say! I was tempted to put the standard picture up - had a look in my own files rather than Google. But I'll leave the concept of Heliocentric Parallax and the parsec as the distance at which an object has a PARallax of one SECond of arc to somebody else! The pc, kpc and Mpc are standard usage for astronomical distances. The light year being more of a "layman's" measurement... Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Anotheran Posted May 25, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 25, 2015 Mike's posted some pictures on Dent of the three Cunard Queens in Liverpool. Here's my experience of the same: This morning, having decided to have a lie in after I'd been out at my wife's aunt's until 02:30 helping her son prepare for his wedding, I had a phone call from my dad at 07:30... Dad: "We're going to Liverpool (from Stafford) to see the four Cunard Queens, would you like us to pick you up (from our house the other side of Stafford). If so we need to go at about 9:30 as we need to be there by 12:00." Me: "We're in Enfield today, we came down to help with the wedding plans." Dad: "Ah, you won't make it then. If I'd known I wouldn't have woken you up." Me: "Thanks dad. Enjoy the boats!" Now I'm back in Stafford, and very tired, but (as a dutiful son) will phone dad to ask if he had a good day out! Kind regards, Neil 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
peach james Posted May 26, 2015 Share Posted May 26, 2015 Indeed, as someone who has lived in a "metric" country that still sells most things by imperial units, it takes some getting used to the difference of unit used. I'd assume there are "metric" equals of a AU and Parsec, but haven't got the foggiest what they are- other than "big", which doesn't exactly cover it. One good explanation that I can think of is the movie "Powers of Ten" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fKBhvDjuy0 ) which does a decent job of explaining, using base10 as the alteration factor. It used to be a lot of fun to run backwards at 2x speed ! James 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Sasquatch Posted May 26, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 26, 2015 For modeling the "system", and scenic above the rails, I tend to think that the fixed home layout in a basement or purpose built space here is probably far above what happens in general in the UK. You only have to look at a layout like Lostock Juction ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEqF7nAlfFo ) which is UK outline, but built over here to see what I mean. 3 of the 12 (or so) of us in our club here have basement empires which would give most UK modelers fits for how much space we have. (I have 36x12, Alan has about 24x14 and David has quite a bit (not sure, but probably well over 300 sq ft) So, from that prospective, we end up with "bigger" layouts, which allows more scenic depth, but that means that track quite often falls off the radar as to things which people want to spend a lot of time modeling. The likes of Tony Wright's trackwork (I know, he horse traded to get the track done) would be exceptional rather than anything like normal. Handbuilt track is unusual here...the advent of FastTracks jigs has changed that to some extent, but it is still uncommon. It helps that HO scale track is 16.5mm gauge, not 18.2 or 18.83... James James, what you say makes a lot of sense. As you well know, property size in the UK tends to be much smaller than in the US and finding the space for large scenic layouts nigh on impossible. I suppose it makes us an inventive lot, with a lot of emphasis on track planning. Anyway, I'm verging on discussing railways in the Asylum, so I'd better shut up! Jeff See here 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Donw Posted May 26, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 26, 2015 THe problem with imagining distances in space is we are stuck with basically a two dimensional view we cannot have a look from the side! When you look at a cluster of stars they all appear to be close. but they can be at very different depths in space. Even more so when one of what looks like a star is actually a whole galaxy much further off. A there are clusters of galaxies even further of than our local cluster. So you have interplanetary distances interstellar distances intergalactic distances intergalactic cluster distances each step is dwafed by the one above think about distance between houses distances between towns distances between countries only it is more stretched out Don 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Physicsman Posted May 26, 2015 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted May 26, 2015 Totally agree, Don. One thing, of topical interest, put things into perspective on a "local" scale. New Horizons is now 0.39AU (about 59 million km) from Pluto and will pass the dwarf planet in 49 days time. It's moving at a speed of 13.8km/s (around 8.5 miles per second - a grand prix car at max. speed = 0.06km/s) relative to Pluto and yet, by the time it arrives, it'll have taken 9.5 years to get to Pluto from Earth. Yet on the scale of the universe, Pluto isn't even a fraction of a step out of the back door. Scientists may be familiar with handling the gigantic numbers involved, but I defy anybody to claim they have a true feeling for the sheer size of things. I suppose the amazing thing is how humans, despite being Earth-bound, have managed to conceive a succession of inventive methods to measure the scale of the universe. Jeff 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Clive Mortimore Posted May 26, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 26, 2015 Totally agree, Don. One thing, of topical interest, put things into perspective on a "local" scale. New Horizons is now 0.39AU (about 59 million km) from Pluto and will pass the dwarf planet in 49 days time. It's moving at a speed of 13.8km/s (around 8.5 miles per second - a grand prix car at max. speed = 0.06km/s) relative to Pluto and yet, by the time it arrives, it'll have taken 9.5 years to get to Pluto from Earth. Yet on the scale of the universe, Pluto isn't even a fraction of a step out of the back door. Scientists may be familiar with handling the gigantic numbers involved, but I defy anybody to claim they have a true feeling for the sheer size of things. I suppose the amazing thing is how humans, despite being Earth-bound, have managed to conceive a succession of inventive methods to measure the scale of the universe. Jeff Nah!! It is all a load of bunkum. The big fella is playing tricks on us. He has a few giant mirras and a 'andfull of powerful lights, just to make us fink the universe is bigger than it is. :yes: Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Reichert Posted May 26, 2015 Share Posted May 26, 2015 'tis like a single piece of ballast compared to the length of the Trans-Siberia RR.. . . . . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Anotheran Posted May 26, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 26, 2015 'tis like a single piece of ballast compared to the length of the Trans-Siberia RR.. . . . . Is that ballast 2 mm or 4 mm scale? Oops, we'll have Jeff castigating us for railway topics in the asylum! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Physicsman Posted May 26, 2015 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted May 26, 2015 Is that ballast 2 mm or 4 mm scale? Oops, we'll have Jeff castigating us for railway topics in the asylum! I would never castigate anybody, Neil. It can have long-term effects.... Or have I got the wrong word? Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Physicsman Posted May 26, 2015 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted May 26, 2015 Not noctilucent clouds but I can get the ball rolling and start at the bottom (bart and fubble?). Cloud formation in action is a common sight over the Bay in summer (the hotter the better) as evaporation rises to form some quite sizable clouds. This example is just beginning it's journey inland on a light south-westerly breeze but beware still days when they can reach critical mass and produce a sudden, sometimes very heavy downpour for a whole 10 minutes before starting the process over. Raincloud.jpg Regards Bill Bill, that's a nice pic looking across the Bay in the direction of Furness. Black Combe rising in the background, partially covered in cloud. Funny place, the Bay. When it's nice - it's VERY nice. Always seems to be pi55ing down, though, when I go over to Barrow! Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythocentric Posted May 26, 2015 Share Posted May 26, 2015 (edited) Bill, that's a nice pic looking across the Bay in the direction of Furness. Black Combe rising in the background, partially covered in cloud. Funny place, the Bay. When it's nice - it's VERY nice. Always seems to be pi55ing down, though, when I go over to Barrow! Jeff That's because the prevailing winds are south-south westerly Jeff. That means they Lakelander's get all our rain as well while we (usually) stay nice and dry! HeeHee! I have a picture to that effect which I'll post later if you don't mind! Regards Bill Edited May 26, 2015 by Mythocentric 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold ChrisN Posted May 26, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 26, 2015 Not noctilucent clouds but I can get the ball rolling and start at the bottom (bart and fubble?). Cloud formation in action is a common sight over the Bay in summer (the hotter the better) as evaporation rises to form some quite sizable clouds. This example is just beginning it's journey inland on a light south-westerly breeze but beware still days when they can reach critical mass and produce a sudden, sometimes very heavy downpour for a whole 10 minutes before starting the process over. Raincloud.jpg Regards Bill I have seen clouds like this as I have sat on the beach in Wales. No clouds 50 -100 ft out to sea. Small clouds up above. Heavy clouds pouring rain over the mountains inland. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythocentric Posted May 26, 2015 Share Posted May 26, 2015 I have seen clouds like this as I have sat on the beach in Wales. No clouds 50 -100 ft out to sea. Small clouds up above. Heavy clouds pouring rain over the mountains inland. Luce Bay (South-West tip of Scotland) is another place where you can watch cloud formation in action. It surprises a lot of people to actually see them so low (high atmospheric pressure I think!). If you're out on one of the boats it sometimes feels like you could almost reach up and touch them! Of course, the best part is watching them head off towards Cumbria, rising as they go and this is what happens when they arrive... Undoubtedly one of the days Jeff was driving over to visit his Dad! I only hope he doesn't retaliate by slinging any of his nuclear rabbit deterrents at us now that he knows where all the rains coming from! It was cloudy but still very warm and sunny on the south side of the Bay! I must admit I caught this by pure accident. My mate had just retired and he wanted a photograph of his boat, which he'd just sold, as a keepsake. That lighting is superb though! Regards Bill 7 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Kazmierczak Posted May 26, 2015 Share Posted May 26, 2015 (edited) Because early astronomers used telescopes to view the universe, does that mean they get a fore-shortened view of everything? Rather like the view when taking pictures of trains with a telephoto lens, er no sorry, er railways, no, no, what else do we photo? Um......um. Anyway, you get the idea. Edited May 26, 2015 by Peter Kazmierczak 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smiffy2 Posted May 26, 2015 Share Posted May 26, 2015 Not really, as all objects are at infinity, so there is no differential focus. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew P Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 Because early astronomers used telescopes to view the universe, does that mean they get a fore-shortened view of everything? Rather like the view when taking pictures of trains with a telephoto lens, er no sorry, er railways, no, no, what else do we photo? Um......um. Anyway, you get the idea. I know what you meant Peter, you meant to say fast Cars didn't you. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeeleyBridge Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 He meant to say birds Andy. Hat, dirty mac, gone Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Physicsman Posted May 27, 2015 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted May 27, 2015 For a weekday it's extremely quiet on here. I was up late last night playing with the new telescope. Good views of Saturn and Jupiter and re-acquainting myself with some of the Moon's craters. A lot of fun and I didn't worry about infinity, parsecs or the Big Bang! Jeff 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeeleyBridge Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 (edited) Well Jeff, I would tell you where I'd been today but I would incur another detention. I managed to get a ride on a tram to the east end of Sheffield to a shop with which you are well acquainted. I spent money and am very happy to have got what I need to fix what was not right. Price lists for more purchases were picked up. Edited May 27, 2015 by HeeleyBridge Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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