Pragmatic Pre-Grouping - Mikkel's Workbench

[Compound2632]

Crates and ladders! And there was me worried me might head off into ropes and sacks!

 

All good stuff - let's keep it going. Unfortunately Midland Record ceased publication before we got the definitive article on Midland Railway ladders...

[Mikkel]

Don't rule out the ropes just yet, if I can help it we will soon get to them 

 

Experiments with sheeting continue. Below, a consignment of giant "packing peanuts" await sheeting on a 4-planker. The wagon is (1) not very well constructed and (2) has four planks on the outside but only three on the inside due to a kit design error – so it is a good candidate for a cover-up.

 

 

 

Looking through my books and GWRJs I noticed that photos often show the sheets “pulled up” along the sides of the wagon. This was when the inner set of eyelets were used (see sheets on p58 and 59 in GWR Goods Services 2A, and text and illustration here).  The foil allows the pulled-up sides to be represented, below is a first attempt – the actual roping will come later:

 

 

 

The transfers I have made give off a slightly shiny effect - even after toning down with varnish and weathering powder. This is OK to represent a newish sheet, but there should be worn ones too, which were more matt and smooth than the shiny and wrinkly new ones (see eg photo in GWR Goods Services 2A p88 where the contrast between old and new is particularly apparent).

 

To represent worns sheets, I tried printing Ian’s sheet design onto normal paper, and then glued the paper sheet onto the alu foil with PVA. This combines the matt look of paper with the “shapeability” of the foil. Below is my first try at a worn sheet.

 

 

 

As for the tying and folding of sheets at the ends of wagons, I have always thought that the sides were folded in first, after which the upper part of the sheet was folded down over them. But the photos I have seen tend to show the opposite arrangement (with some exceptions), ie the top folded down first and then the sides on the outside. Online views of this are hard to come by, but see eg the example here.

 

Ian Rice confirms this practice in “Detailing and Improving RTR Wagons” p 48 (see the caption not the model!). Below is an attempt to do this. The foil allows the snippets to be squeezed to shape as if pulled by rope.

 

 

 

Note that the foil also has drawbacks. If you fold it too much it tends to develop unsightly kinks and edges which can be hard to smoothe out, and which may need touching up with a lick of paint. I have managed to source a supply of no-name 0.05 mm foil here in Denmark, which is the same as what I bought on ebay, but seems a bit more flexible and is a lot cheaper. At 4£ for 100x15 cms I now have an ample supply for further experiments!

 

 

I’m still pondering how to represent the roping. I have ordered a roll of black EZ line to see if that is a way of producing a tight effect (if not, it can be put to other good use).

Edited January 14, 2017 by Mikkel

[Compound2632]

Don't rule out the ropes just yet, if I can help it we will soon get to them 

 

I’m still pondering how to represent the roping. I have ordered a roll of black EZ line to see if that is a way of producing a tight effect (if not, it can be put to other good use).

 

OK here goes: from Essery, op. cit., according to a former Great Northern employee, ropes were 25ft long and in accordance with RCH regulations were made of hemp (though the GSWR used tarred manila) and had a metallic ferrule at the middle, stamped with the number of the rope, initials of the owning company, and in some cases its home station. Each company's ropes were colour coded, so Mikkel take note: "The Great Western Railway has two distinctive marks, the majority consisting of ropes with two green and one white strand, but on the Watlington and Princes Risborough branch the ropes contain two yellow and one blue strand". And for Quarryscapes: "nearly all the Cambrian Railways' ropes contain one red, one green and one white strand, but on what was formerly the Mid-Wales Railway they contain a red and a green strand."

 

There's an explanation of the accounting procedures for ropes on the GNR, presumably other companies operated in a similarly bid-bogglingly bureaucratic manner: 

 

"Unlike sacks [ho-ho!], no charge is incurred by the public when ropes are used. In order to ensure their prompt and safe return a charge of 10s. is made to the station to which they are loaded. For example, we will suppose that a load of hay is sent from Boston to King's Cross, and as this traffic is of a bulky nature in proportion to its weight, a rope will be required to bind the load. [Wot no sheet?] In invoicing the traffic forward, Boston would enter to the King's Cross goods agent one rope, giving the number, '10s. paid-on', and '10s. to pay.' Of these two amounts the former is a credit (Cr.) to Boston and the latter a debit (Dr.) against King's Cross. When King's Cross is able to return the rope it would invoice to the Boston agent one rope, '10s. paid-on.' and '10s. to pay.' The 'paid-on' being, in this case, a credit to King's Cross, it would thus clear the debit from Boston, and as the 'to-pay' item would be a debit against Boston, that station would meet it by the credit obtained on the original entry."

 

I hope you've all got that; there will be a test later. Let's hope Boston did get their very own rope back... I'm reminded of Paddington Bear's indignation when the bank didn't issue him with the very £5 note he'd deposited - he'd kept a record of the serial number.

 

Not sure about that 25ft length though - Essery goes on to quote LMS instructions: "Traffic ropes, which are not less than 20 yards in length (and may not exceed 25 yards), have a circumference of 2 1/2 in - standard on all railways - they are fitted with ferrules branded with the rope number and Company Ownership, and when out of use must be coiled and stored in a dry place." Traffic ropes, unlike wagons and sheets, were not common-user: "Ropes binding loads received at LMS stations from stations on other Railways must be released as soon as possible (LMS ropes being substituted for them if necessary) and returned to the sending station in accordance with R.C.H. Regulation 186, invoiced on the standard form..." (the instructions continue along the same lines as the GNR example). 

 

Is it any wonder that the railways employed one-tenth of the working population at their zenith?

[Penlan]

In my copy of the LNWR's 1908 'Accounts Instruction Book', part of rule 1031 is that Ropes (and Chains) must not be returned to their home station in empty waggons* or mineral waggons.

Note:- there where similar accounting procedures for Magazine Boots, Magazine Frames & Slippers (think Gunpowder Waggons) in rule 1037.

 

Basically there was a 3 month period from the issue of ropes, chains, etc., to the recipient being charged for none return of the item(s).

.... and don't get me started on Sacks, there's three pages of instructions.....

 

* Waggons, as spelt in the Instruction book.

 

The feruls were essential and became a requirement from 1861 for them to be fitted.

Imagine a hemp rope well used in grimy conditions etc., 

and trying to distinguish, in a dimly lit shed, or out in the rain,

between a Newcastle & Carlisle rope - 1 red, 2 black strands, and Great Eastern Rly - 1 red strand.... 

I now live in an area where the marine ropes are synthetic (and main colours of blue, or yellow, or red, etc.,  etc.,)  and they have different identity strands, sometimes even they can be difficult to tell apart.

Edited January 14, 2017 by Penlan

[Donw]

Oh no I now have to worry about colour strands in the rope and making sure I have the right colours for the specific company. Still as its pre-pooling I only have to worry about the rope matching the waggon. "5ft does sound very long for a rope compared with the size of a waggon. On the other hand a rope 60 -75ft  and approx 3/4inch diameter would be quite a heavy thing to handle but is does seem more likely to me. Than the 25ft where you would probably need more than one rope per waggon.

 

Don

[Worsdell forever]

The ropes I used to use to tie round bales on to a lorry were approximately 1/2 inch diameter and went up the bales 8ft, across the top 9ft, down 8ft, tied off with a wagon hitch, along to the next bale and over again so probably well over 60 ft long each. They weren't too bulky or heavy even though they were hemp, nylon or whatever would be light as a feather. For the loose hay in the wagons it would be much easier to sheet if it was tied down first.

[uax6]

Long ladders; the LNWR had some too:

 

Lnwr_Crewe.jpg

Looking at this ladder, is it actually two ladders roped together (Fred Dibnah style)?

 

Andy G

[Donw]

My comment about the ladder was that it would be difficult to manoeuvre. For a Rick ladder or on a big house there would be room to manoeuvre but in a railway yard with the rails, waggons, wires between poles, signals, cranes, goods stacked all over the place trying to move around a big ladder like that could have been fun. Anyone on here actually tried using one. I have used one not as long as that but about 20ft long also a wooden two section ladder that was about 16ft long closed up (bl00dy heavy). Plenty of experience using ladders as a Telephone engineer.

 

Don

[Penlan]

We have a double aluminium 18' ladder (18' + 18') in  the Village, that somebody bought in good faith.

It is only a manual push-up (Is that correct) no ropes & pulleys etc., to extend it.

It's an absolute to nightmare to handle. It was bought when we had some scaffolding at about 24' high to reach the top of - It's all to do with Village Harbour (and hillside) Christmas Lights -  even the single piece at 18' long, in a wind, is not easy.......

Basically, we don't use it now, to much like hard work, and the safety aspects not clever either.

Edited January 14, 2017 by Penlan

[uax6]

My comment about the ladder was that it would be difficult to manoeuvre. For a Rick ladder or on a big house there would be room to manoeuvre but in a railway yard with the rails, waggons, wires between poles, signals, cranes, goods stacked all over the place trying to move around a big ladder like that could have been fun. Anyone on here actually tried using one. I have used one not as long as that but about 20ft long also a wooden two section ladder that was about 16ft long closed up (bl00dy heavy). Plenty of experience using ladders as a Telephone engineer.

 

Don

Handy for staying rotten poles though aren't they? Also for putting up poles as well.

 

I would say that I don't like man-handling my set of ladder 4A's (the short version) as even when you are putting them up against a wall they are heavy. Infact I think the wooden versions would be lighter. (I'd love to get a set of wooden ones for my van, but, alas, I fear I'm not going to find any now....

 

Andy G

[Compound2632]

The ropes I used to use to tie round bales on to a lorry were approximately 1/2 inch diameter and went up the bales 8ft, across the top 9ft, down 8ft, tied off with a wagon hitch, along to the next bale and over again so probably well over 60 ft long each. They weren't too bulky or heavy even though they were hemp, nylon or whatever would be light as a feather. For the loose hay in the wagons it would be much easier to sheet if it was tied down first.

 

That makes sense - rope the hay then sheet it over. Of course pre-WWI the hay would be loose not baled, I suppose.

[Brassey]

Looking at this ladder, is it actually two ladders roped together (Fred Dibnah style)?

 

Andy G

What always struck me as intriguing in this photo is that there is such a ladder erected in the middle of Platform 1 at Crewe with all the Porters going about their work!  An accident waiting to happen.

 

I am sure there is a photo of an even longer ladder working on the roof of Lime Street but I can't seem to find it.

[Donw]

We have a double aluminium 18' ladder (18' + 18') in  the Village, that somebody bought in good faith.

It is only a manual push-up (Is that correct) no ropes & pulleys etc., to extend it.

It's an absolute to nightmare to handle. It was bought when we had some scaffolding at about 24' high to reach the top of - It's all to do with Village Harbour (and hillside) Christmas Lights -  even the single piece at 18' long, in a wind, is not easy.......

Basically, we don't use it now, to much like hard work, and the safety aspects not clever either.

 

I presume you would agree with me that handling a long ladder is not likely to be easy. The big wooden double I mentioned had a rope over a pulley to raise the top section and more usefully stops on the bottom rung that worked like a rachet they would spring to allow the section to go up but hold if it moved downwards which made it possible to raise it in steps. Still hard work but much safer. Towards the end of my time on external work elevating platforms had come in which is well Off topic.

 

Handy for staying rotten poles though aren't they? Also for putting up poles as well.

 

I would say that I don't like man-handling my set of ladder 4A's (the short version) as even when you are putting them up against a wall they are heavy. Infact I think the wooden versions would be lighter. (I'd love to get a set of wooden ones for my van, but, alas, I fear I'm not going to find any now....

 

Andy G

 

I have erected poles three of us to dig out and erect a 30ft telephone pole. Well 2.5 really as I am not built like a gang hand I was a jointer helping out when they were short handed. This would have been a task familiar to the S&T department. I have also put up open wires something not used by BT these days I presume no longer used by the railways. For years the wires would have been bare copper wire. Different sizes  according to the length of run. GPO rated them by weight so many pounds per mile of wire. I suspect railways did the same.

Don 

[Mikkel]

The Great Western Railway has two distinctive marks, the majority consisting of ropes with two green and one white strand

I had no idea! From a scale distance that would simply look dark, I think, but I can add a bit of dark green to the mix and some white-ish dry brushing.

 

 

Not sure about that 25ft length though - Essery goes on to quote LMS instructions: "Traffic ropes, which are not less than 20 yards in length (and may not exceed 25 yards), have a circumference of 2 1/2 in - standard on all railways 

 

On the other hand a rope 60 -75ft  and approx 3/4inch diameter would be quite a heavy thing to handle but is does seem more likely to me. Than the 25ft where you would probably need more than one rope per waggon.

 

I'm a little confused here. What ropes are we talking about? The ones fixed to eyelets in the sheets, or different ones used to tie down the loads themselves? 

[Guy Rixon]

In the Werret series of wagon drawings - Railway Modeller, up to mid '80s - there were notes for the rope colours of the pre-grouping railways.

[Miss Prism]

Looking through my books and GWRJs I noticed that photos often show the sheets “pulled up” along the sides of the wagon.

 

That's so you can show off your red livery, Mikkel...

[Devo63]

Chris, other photos show those light wood containers with straw in them, which was probably used for packing around something - so I think you are right. Perhaps a way of making irregularly shaped/sized goods more manegeable for handling. There seems to have been many different sizes.

 

 

G'day Mikkel,

 

The method of packing items in straw was a common method of shipping furniture and larger glass and porcelain products from at least the mid 1700's until quite recent times (sometime post WW2). I have read references to warships being fitted out in the Napoleonic era where the dockside is covered in straw from the packaging around items being delivered. Some items like table and chairs had bundles of straw tied around the legs and wrapped in canvas before more straw was used as packing around the items in the open framework of the crate. These lightweight open crates had different names in different parts of the country - some were called 'skeleton frames/crates' and others 'flimsies'. In the days before nice smooth roads poorly packed merchandise could take quite a battering during delivery on a horse drawn cart.

 

Dave R. 

[Mikkel]

That's so you can show off your red livery, Mikkel...

 

Yes! 

 

 

The new iron mink in its base coat, ready for toning down and weathering. Not everyone will agree with the grey W-irons etc, and I admit I could be fighting a loosing battle on that one, but I haven't given up yet. My latest line of defence is to look at what other companies did, eg the Barry Railway: http://www.penrhos.me.uk/BarryWagons.shtml

 

 

In the Werret series of wagon drawings - Railway Modeller, up to mid '80s - there were notes for the rope colours of the pre-grouping railways.

 

Thanks Guy. On reflection it does make some sense that the companies were so eager to brand their ropes - pre-pooling at least. If they hadn't identified them clearly, it's a good bet that ropes would have "gone missing" when empty wagons were returned. I can see a Detective Benton story brewing there 

 

 

 

These lightweight open crates had different names in different parts of the country - some were called 'skeleton frames/crates' and others 'flimsies'.

 

Excellent info Dave. I like those nicknames! I think I'll go for 'flimsies", since "skeleton crates" has another meaning around Farthing... 

 

Edited January 15, 2017 by Mikkel

[uax6]

 

 

I have erected poles three of us to dig out and erect a 30ft telephone pole. Well 2.5 really as I am not built like a gang hand I was a jointer helping out when they were short handed. This would have been a task familiar to the S&T department. I have also put up open wires something not used by BT these days I presume no longer used by the railways. For years the wires would have been bare copper wire. Different sizes  according to the length of run. GPO rated them by weight so many pounds per mile of wire. I suspect railways did the same.

Don 

 

I have managed to find a coil of cad-copper wire as used in open wire spans, so that it can go in the back of the van when I get round to showing it. I've got some jointing sleeves somewhere as well.

As far as I know the railway has no open wire left, and BTs is restricted to the odd subs line feed from the pole to the house (theres still some down my mums road).

The Isle of Wight Steam Railway have a project to install open wires along the railway, and Bt are helping out with finding insulators, spindles and arms for them....

 

Andy G

[Dave John]

Excellent cameo there Mikkel.

 

" Aye Arthur, I told ye the tea in the canteen tasted funny..... "

[Donw]

I had no idea! From a scale distance that would simply look dark, I think, but I can add a bit of dark green to the mix and some white-ish dry brushing.

 

 

 

 

I'm a little confused here. What ropes are we talking about? The ones fixed to eyelets in the sheets, or different ones used to tie down the loads themselves? 

 

Well I was thinking about the rope you thought you were modelling in post 612. It looks to me the only way that could be done would be with the longer rope.

Don

[Mikkel]

Well I was thinking about the rope you thought you were modelling in post 612. It looks to me the only way that could be done would be with the longer rope.

Don

 

OK. I thought at first we were talking about the short ropes used to secure the sheet to the holes in the solebars (1 in each corner and 3 along each side). These are shown in photos of sheets in GWR Goods Wagons 2A and are just a few feet long, hence my confusion (and are more string than rope).

 

But I can see how the real ropes sometimes used to further secure a load and sheet would have to be much longer.

[ChrisN]

OK here goes: from Essery, op. cit., according to a former Great Northern employee, ropes were 25ft long and in accordance with RCH regulations were made of hemp (though the GSWR used tarred manila) and had a metallic ferrule at the middle, stamped with the number of the rope, initials of the owning company, and in some cases its home station. Each company's ropes were colour coded, so Mikkel take note: "The Great Western Railway has two distinctive marks, the majority consisting of ropes with two green and one white strand, but on the Watlington and Princes Risborough branch the ropes contain two yellow and one blue strand". And for Quarryscapes: "nearly all the Cambrian Railways' ropes contain one red, one green and one white strand, but on what was formerly the Mid-Wales Railway they contain a red and a green strand."

 

 

Does this mean I should take three threads of cotton, one red, one white and one green and twist them?  They would probably need gluing with something to keep them together.  Cut to lengths with a pieces of masking tape or similar in the middle to act as the ferrule.  The whole lot then weathered.  (Corblimmey guvnor you must be 'avin a larf.-  or was that on anuver fred?)

 

That makes sense - rope the hay then sheet it over. Of course pre-WWI the hay would be loose not baled, I suppose.

 

When did traction engines come into regular use, they would have driven the bailers.  I will check but not tonight.

[Guy Rixon]

When did traction engines come into regular use, they would have driven the bailers.  I will check but not tonight.

 

 

Check rather on the dates for "portable engines" - i.e. engines for working threshing gear that were towed around by horses. They were probably around before traction engines. My great-uncle had one and it was still in regular use at harvest time in the early 1930s.

[Mikkel]

Does this mean I should take three threads of cotton, one red, one white and one green and twist them?  They would probably need gluing with something to keep them together.  Cut to lengths with a pieces of masking tape or similar in the middle to act as the ferrule.  The whole lot then weathered.  (Corblimmey guvnor you must be 'avin a larf.-  or was that on anuver fred?)

 

That could be a way of doing it, at least for the thicker roping (rather than the sheet fastener lines, which were quite thin). I suppose it would be a bit like modelling building interiors, you don't strictly have to do it as very few people notice, but you have a personal satisfaction of knowing it's there.