Pragmatic Pre-Grouping - Mikkel's Workbench

[Guius]

Working horses usually were kept in stalls (Skell Boosin's -Lakeland Dialect) with a head collar being attached through a ring to a wooden 'Clog'(light wooden weight) with enough room to lay down. Sick or resting horses had a bit more room in a loose box (12'x12' or larger). Railway horses being generally well looked after but worked hard, an expensive asset generally more costly to replace than the men who worked with them. Many tens of thousands of prime stock horses were commandeered during the Great War only a handful ever returned, the Army so short of animals later in the war shipped mules from Peru which proved to be 'unshakable' in the hellish conditions of front line transport. Also after the war a great respect for the French Percheron saw there wide use in town and country.

 

Best

Guy

[57xx]

Wouldn't louvres bent inwards also let in rain ?

 

It depends in which direction, eg if angled so the top was "bent inwards", the rain will still run to the outside of the louvres.

[Mikkel]

Wouldn't louvres bent inwards also let in rain ?

 

All the Louvres on machinery space and engine intakes aboard the ships I have worked upon have all had the slats opening outwards, to reduce the chances of water intake, there was also a second screen inside to stop any ingress of water on any engine intakes.

 

I probably wasn't being very clear. By "inwards" and "outwards" I didn't mean the angle of the slats. I was just referring to different ways of folding the slats up from the flat. So as 57xx said: 

 

It depends in which direction, eg if angled so the top was "bent inwards", the rain will still run to the outside of the louvres.

 

Here's a drawing of one of the standard types of roof ventilator:

 

 

[Mikkel]

Excellent work, as usual.  Good to see such a substantial stable block, which I expect will justify much equine activity and impedimenta.

 

PS: Do you know how many stalls and how arranged?

 

I would guess a single row along the rear wall with an apron along the front running left and right of the single, more or less centrally placed, door, with the right-hand door a tack room or more likely hay store.

 

I tend to assume boxes at about 12' x 12', but I don't know whether working railway horses were expected to make do with less.

 

I assume that you will run a gully along the front for drainage, and I suspect that the too square apertures at the base of the wall would lead into them.

 

Thanks Edwardian, and yes it's all an excuse for some horsing around    Nothing like horses to add a bit of period feel, I think.

 

The Park Royal stable had 12 stalls, and a provender store (door on the right). The stalls were laid out as you describe it. Each stall was 6'3 3/4" wide. This was about standard width - other drawings show 6'1 1/4" or 6´0 3/4" etc. Length was about 10'.

 

The drawings do not seem to indicate a gully along the front. There was a cess pit covered by a grate next to each of the two "sweep holes" (as they are called on the drawings) that you refer to. 

 

Edit: Just had a look at some other drawings. On the Park Royal stable block, along the middle third of the building, it says: "Metallic cement paving. The paving to be 3" metallic cement with grooved surface laid to falls. To be executed by The Metallic Cement and Artificial Stone Co, Ranelagh Gardens, Fulham".

 

On drawings of some other stable blocks, the "sweep holes" also lead into cess pits, but for rain water the drawings state:  "System of drainage to be decided upon the site" and similar.

 

Edited June 13, 2017 by Mikkel

[Mikkel]

Good grief, I've gone and done another GWR 4-plank open. But wait! This one is different somehow...? 
 

 

[Stubby47]

Well, the numbers don't match...

[ullypug]

the brake looks interesting...

[Mikkel]

Well, the numbers don't match...

 

Ha! No that wasn't it, but well spotted. I've switched two numbers at one end by mistake. Serves me right for trying to be clever   

 

the brake looks interesting...

 

Yes  I picked up a part-built four-plank kit for a few quid recently. It was looking a bit forlorn, so I thought I'd try something a bit different with it.

 

The result is a cheap and cheerful representation of the Thomas brake, with which the GWR experimented at the turn of the last century. It was patented by L.R. Thomas who was Manager of the Carriage & Wagon Dept at the time. The brake was operated by turning the crank handle, of which there was one on each side. It was used on a limited number of wagons from 1896-1902 but was never widely applied as it wasn't much of a success. The DC1 brake soon eclipsed it, being quicker to work. 

 

 

There are a couple of photos of the real no. 71058 on pages 53-54 in Atkins, Beard & Tourret (1998 edition), fitted with the brake. The crank handles were fashioned from handrail stanchions and wire. I did make a neater version at first, but they couldn't cope with the handling. So it's a bit crude, but I like the difference it makes in the wagon rake.

 

 

[drduncan]

Very nice. When I did my one of 71058 I used bent brass wire soldered to a cross piece. I think there are some pictures in my workbench blog and maybe in the Nov (I think but will check) 2016 Railway Modeller.

Duncan

[Mikkel]

Very nice. When I did my one of 71058 I used bent brass wire soldered to a cross piece. I think there are some pictures in my workbench blog and maybe in the Nov (I think but will check) 2016 Railway Modeller.

Duncan

 

Thanks Duncan, I've found a photo in your blog entry here: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blog/1569/entry-16508-the-wagon-and-carriage-shop-red-wagons/

 

Very nice to see another example. You have certainly got the handles neater. I think Mr Thomas would have been pleased that his invention is remembered despite the interference of that Churchward fellow.

[drduncan]

Duplicate post deleted

Edited July 2, 2017 by drduncan

[drduncan]

The soldering of the handles to the cross piece was very fiddly and one side did not survive someone else's rough handling at an exhibition. It's now on the repairs and alterations list!

D

[Trains&armour]

Good grief, I've gone and done another GWR 4-plank open. But wait! This one is different somehow...? 

 

 

That reminds me. I've still got one I need to finish. Since November last year....

[Mikkel]

The soldering of the handles to the cross piece was very fiddly and one side did not survive someone else's rough handling at an exhibition. It's now on the repairs and alterations list!

D

 

That sounds familiar. I've come to the conclusion that there's a law of nature which says that if you've got a delicate part on a wagon, at some point your or someone else will hold it exactly there!

 

 

That reminds me. I've still got one I need to finish. Since November last year....

 

You can always use that old layout excuse: "Is a wagon ever finished?" I have a decent rake now but some still need Sprat and Winkles and most need tarps or loads. It never ends 

[Mikkel]

Work has started on rebuilding one of the new Dean Goods locos from Oxford Rail into a 1900s round top boilered workhorse.  My main interest in the model is the chassis, which happily turns out to be a good smooth runner (well mine at least). As it turns out, it looks like I can also use the footplate and smokebox.
 


The Oxford model comes with wide footplate and plain con rods. This particular combination was found on Lot 99 and 100 (nos 2451-2490). This series were built with the S4 roundtopped boiler with dome on the back ring, so that is what I am tentatively aiming for.
 
(However, there are also other options: For example, a number of the locos built with fluted rods later acquired plain ones, meaning that locos in the 2491-2580 series - all built with wide footplate - could also be modelled if photos show them with plain con rods. Then there are the boilers: These were replaced in a wonderfully counter-intuitive manner over the years, with numerous locos reverting back and forth between S4 boilers and the older S2 boilers. So you can have a loco running with an S2 boiler and dome on the front ring right up to WW1. Very tempting!)
 
 Anyway, the slaughter began by removing the Oxford boiler and firebox, which I won’t be needing…
 

 

 

 

This left me with the smokebox. Incidentally the  model’s boiler is approx. 1.9 mm across by my measurements. 

 

 

 

The chimney was hacked off, as this needs to be set further back for my period and version. The lubrication pipe cover was also removed. Most (but not all) of the rivets on the smokebox will need to be filed off.
 

 

 

So that left me with this trial set-up:
 

 

 

However, the Oxford cab is too tall for a roundtop boiler, and the spectacles need to be bigger. This made me reach into the drawer for the cab of the old Mainline Dean Goods. Here they are side by side:
 

 

 

The Mainline cab has more scope for lowering the height at the top, and I like the cabside profile better too. So maybe the set-up below is the way ahead. If not I will build the cab myself. Need to mull that over.
 

[Compound2632]

Seems you may have the solution to the reported inaccuracies of the Oxford model... I hear the splashers are bigger than they need to be, too.

 

V. interested as there will be exchange traffic between the Great Western, North Western and Midland around my distorted corner of the West Midlands - round-topped boilered engines allocated to Wolverhampton?

[Mikkel]

Seems you may have the solution to the reported inaccuracies of the Oxford model... I hear the splashers are bigger than they need to be, too.

 

V. interested as there will be exchange traffic between the Great Western, North Western and Midland around my distorted corner of the West Midlands - round-topped boilered engines allocated to Wolverhampton?

 

Not sure it's a solution as such, but it does overcome some of the problems. 

 

Yes, the splashers are an issue. Apart from the rivets that need to be removed, they are a bit long and seemingly also narrow. Here they are compared to the Mainline version - not that the latter is perfect itself, but it presents an alternative option for the footplate if anyone so prefers. However, that would depend on whether the Oxford chassis/wheels can be made to fit inside the Mainline splashers, and will also involve a good deal of work on the Mainline body.

 

 

Unfortunately I don't have data on the allocation of the locos during the 1900s.

[bgman]

Well, this is very interesting Mikkel, glad to see you've taken the bull by the horns and set about making something ( dare I say ? ) better by your work. You may be the first to do so and set a benchmark for others.

I will watch with great interest and I'm sure that it will turn out to be something special.

 

I've resisted purchasing this model mainly due to its inherent faults which have been discussed elsewhere and are not for here.

 

I wish you well with the project.

 

Grahame

[Mikkel]

Hi Grahame, I understand why this loco is not to everyone's taste. But the chassis is useful I think, and so I thought I'd see what can be done with it. Plus, I'm the type who tends to support the weak side. Pathetic, I know 

 

I'm not the only one working on this model, Alan is doing a latter-day version and has done some replacement parts on Shapeways. His thread is here: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/123986-improving-the-oxford-rail-dean-goods/

[MikeOxon]

Looks to be getting dangerously near to scratchbuilding. 

 

It looks from the pics as though the drive is to the rear wheels, so this version could possibly be a candidate for conversion to a Stella

 

Mike

Edited July 4, 2017 by MikeOxon

[Edwardian]

Work has started on rebuilding one of the new Dean Goods locos from Oxford Rail into a 1900s round top boilered workhorse.  My main interest in the model is the chassis, which happily turns out to be a good smooth runner (well mine at least). As it turns out, it looks like I can also use the footplate and smokebox.

 

 

The Oxford model comes with wide footplate and plain con rods. This particular combination was found on Lot 99 and 100 (nos 2451-2490). This series were built with the S4 roundtopped boiler with dome on the back ring, so that is what I am tentatively aiming for.

 

(However, there are also other options: For example, a number of the locos built with fluted rods later acquired plain ones, meaning that locos in the 2491-2580 series - all built with wide footplate - could also be modelled if photos show them with plain con rods. Then there are the boilers: These were replaced in a wonderfully counter-intuitive manner over the years, with numerous locos reverting back and forth between S4 boilers and the older S2 boilers. So you can have a loco running with an S2 boiler and dome on the front ring right up to WW1. Very tempting!)

 

 Anyway, the slaughter began by removing the Oxford boiler and firebox, which I won’t be needing…

 

 

 

 

This left me with the smokebox. Incidentally the  model’s boiler is approx. 1.9 mm across by my measurements. 

 

 

 

The chimney was hacked off, as this needs to be set further back for my period and version. The lubrication pipe cover was also removed. Most (but not all) of the rivets on the smokebox will need to be filed off.

 

 

 

So that left me with this trial set-up:

 

 

 

However, the Oxford cab is too tall for a roundtop boiler, and the spectacles need to be bigger. This made me reach into the drawer for the cab of the old Mainline Dean Goods. Here they are side by side:

 

 

 

The Mainline cab has more scope for lowering the height at the top, and I like the cabside profile better too. So maybe the set-up below is the way ahead. If not I will build the cab myself. Need to mull that over.

 

 

 

Whereas I have no use for an inter-war DG, a future project is to be based on the GW-LNWR on the Welsh Marches.  I would like to represent the period 1904-1906, and a brace of DGs with Indian Red frames, one S2 and one S4, would be my ideal.

 

My interest in the Oxford DG is precisely with such conversions in mind.  I will, therefore, watch your progress with intense interest!

 

Having quizzed Quarryscapes concerning this model, my principle remaining concerning is whether smaller splashers can be substituted.  The Oxford one is 1mm (3 scale inches), too tall and the base is too long.  The Mainline splashers still overscale, but are smaller, splitting the difference between scale dimensions and the giant Oxford ones.  These vast splashers will be all the more prominent in Indian Red.

 

I believe the Oxford splashers are plastic and not integral to the metal frame?  Perhaps they could be removed with care?  I will be interested to see how you tackle this issue in particular.

 

I note that you will mount the chimney (presumably a parallel chimney - Quarryscapes makes one, and a smoke-box door) further back, as is correct pre-superheating. This will require filing off quite a lot of Oxford's plastic from its chimney base.  This looks like an unenviable task to me!

 

Anyway, what a cracking start and I look forward to more.

 

 

Looks to be getting dangerously near to scratchbuilding. 

 

It looks from the pics as though the drive is to the rear wheels, so this version could possibly be a candidate for conversion to a Stella

 

Mike

 

No books to hand, but a slight discrepancy in wheelbase IIRC, but possibly close enough. 

 

A conversion that would be good to see.

[Northroader]

If you've got no compunction in carving up a nice brand new model, I'm starting to think why not? looking at my O Dapol Terrier.

[ChrisN]

Mikkel,

How very brave and such a good start.  I will watch with interest.

 

I have a Mainline Dean Goods, mainly I need anything that runs really.  I will be backdating it too.  I intend to give it a couple of Stadden Edwardian loco crew.     I think that should do it until such time as I have/have not built enough Cambrian locos not to need it.

[Mikkel]

It looks from the pics as though the drive is to the rear wheels, so this version could possibly be a candidate for conversion to a Stella

 

Aha! I'd love to see you do another Stella conversion, Mike. Or would it be possible to retro-fit th Oxford chassis in your current one? I haven't opened the Oxford mechanism yet but I can't see how the drive could be to anything other than the rear wheels.

 

I believe the Oxford splashers are plastic and not integral to the metal frame?  Perhaps they could be removed with care? 

 

I note that you will mount the chimney (presumably a parallel chimney - Quarryscapes makes one, and a smoke-box door) further back, as is correct pre-superheating. This will require filing off quite a lot of Oxford's plastic from its chimney base.  This looks like an unenviable task to me!

 

Yes I believe the splashers are plastic and in principle I think they can be removed quite easily (though if the glue is strong they will probably break - the coupling at one end was glued rock solid).  The parallel chimney was ordered from Alan/Shapeways this morning, very convenient and I'm grateful to Alan for drawing it up. You're right about the filing needed, but I have nothing much to lose.

 

If you've got no compunction in carving up a nice brand new model, I'm starting to think why not? looking at my O Dapol Terrier.

 

Why not indeed. Although I can see it might take a little more courage to start carving up a 7mm model. I suppose it's like animals. The bigger they are, the softer we get 

 

I have a Mainline Dean Goods, mainly I need anything that runs really.  I will be backdating it too.  I intend to give it a couple of Stadden Edwardian loco crew.     I think that should do it until such time as I have/have not built enough Cambrian locos not to need it.

 

I like the idea of building a loco around a crew   I did some experiments today on the Mainline body which may be of use to you. Will post some photos tomorrow, it's getting a bit late now.

Edited July 4, 2017 by Mikkel

[Mikkel]

I got curious about the possibility of fitting the Mainline Dean Goods body to the Oxford Rail chassis. As my Mainline version is effectively a non-runner anyway, I thought I'd experiment a bit. For anyone wanting a roundtopped boiler like myself, the easiest place to start would be to simply saw off the existing boiler and firebox. However, as I know some people are interested in whether the entire Mainline body can be fitted, I thought I'd try that out first just to see if it's possible.
 
You can't fit the Mainline body directly, as the underside of the boiler gets in the way of the motor. So that has to be removed:
 


 
The underside of the smokebox has to go too, and the remaining insides need to be carefully scraped, filed and carved to provide as much room for the Oxford chassis as possible.
 


 
The Mainline footplate doesn't fit over the Oxford chassis, as it is approx. 0.5 mms shorter than the Oxford footplate and has thicker frames.
 

 
 
So part of the frame at the end has to be removed. It looks risky but I don't think it's particularly problematic in this case. The cab will restore strengh and squareness (if fitted carefully), and the end frame can then be rebuilt with thin styrene or similar.


 
 
A trial fit showed that the body was sitting too high.
 

 
 
The height issue is caused by a lump on each side of the Oxford chassis block. One option would be to remove the motor and file the lumps away. I tried a different option, namely carving away the inside of the Mainline body to accommodate the lumps. This worked OK but was tricky, as I got close to cutting through the smokebox. 



 
Various other lumps were cut away from the inside top of the boiler, to provide further clearance for the motor. Note that there is room for the wheels.
 


 
With this I managed to lower the body to more or less the right height. The loco ran well and without obstructions. With a bit more careful work the fit could be improved further. The main remaining hurdle - which I did not address - is to get a neat match between the bottom of the modified Mainline boiler and the cast section of boiler on the Oxford chassis.
 

 
 
As this point I proceeded with my own roundtop boiler conversion in mind. I removed the Mainline boiler and firebox.
 

 
 
The firebox is a bit tricky and was tackled in a piecemeal fashion.
 

 

This is the result - an alternative footplate option for the Oxford chassis. Again, it ran unhindered and without problems. The advantage of this option is that the splashers are far better, and that the Mainline cab is a direct fit (but still needs lowering to match the roundtop boiler of course). Some things, such as the steps and smokebox, may need to be looked at though - I need to check if they are correctly located.
 

 

So I now need to work out which option I prefer....

Edited July 5, 2017 by Mikkel