Pragmatic Pre-Grouping - Mikkel's Workbench

[Mikkel]

Wagon sheets should go over the raves of open wagons - a load sheeted like the one in 4162 would still get wet (if it rained) as the water would run off the sheet inside the wagon.  Sheet 31331 is correctly applied so it goes down the outside and over the ends of the vehicle.

 

Thanks Mike, yes with a full load like this I will be sheeting it over completely -  these are just quick tests of  the look and feel of this material. There's an interesting photo here btw, things looking a bit more loose than the very tight sheets we tend to model: https://marketlavingtonmuseum.wordpress.com/2015/01/17/another-photo-of-lavington-station/

 

But you do raise a point that I have been wondering about: I seem to remember seeing photos where smaller loads were in fact sheeted inside the wagon. I can't find any showing a moving train, but a couple of possible examples in yards here:

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrms758a.htm (second wagon)

http://www.nrm.org.uk/ourcollection/photo?group=Derby&objid=1997-7397_DY_1697 (on the left)

 

If these are actually loaded wagons, what would the criteria be for when the sheeting went inside, I wonder?

[Stubby47]

There might a reason to sheet the wagon inside if the load wasn't high enough to create a tent and there was no wagon sheet supporter bar. (Else the water would just collect in the tarp in a big pool.)

 

If the load was on blocks or a pallet, it would be clear of the wagon floor, which I doubt was completely watertight.

[Mikkel]

Ah yes, that makes good sense, thank Stu.

 

As I understand it, the puddles were the reason the GWR developed the sheet rail - but when the common user arrangement was applied the other companies kept those wagons to themselves, so the GWR got disgruntled and dismantled the rails again! (or is that railway lore  it's a good story at least!).

[The Stationmaster]

Thanks Mike, yes with a full load like this I will be sheeting it over completely -  these are just quick tests of  the look and feel of this material. There's an interesting photo here btw, things looking a bit more loose than the very tight sheets we tend to model: https://marketlavingtonmuseum.wordpress.com/2015/01/17/another-photo-of-lavington-station/

 

But you do raise a point that I have been wondering about: I seem to remember seeing photos where smaller loads were in fact sheeted inside the wagon. I can't find any showing a moving train, but a couple of possible examples in yards here:

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrms758a.htm (second wagon)

http://www.nrm.org.uk/ourcollection/photo?group=Derby&objid=1997-7397_DY_1697 (on the left)

 

If these are actually loaded wagons, what would the criteria be for when the sheeting went inside, I wonder?

 

I wonder if they're part unloaded wagons or wagons being made ready for unloading and the sheets have been folded out of the way?  I'll have look and see if I can find it any sheeting was authorised or allowed to be inside like that. 

 

The GWR 1916 and 1921 Instructions require that sheets be secured toavoid any chance of loads getting wet using the sheet ties provided to relevant parts of the wagon including buffer guides and axleguards.  There was an additional Instruction for wagons with sheet supporters to ensure the ends were secured to stop water getting in through gaps and to try to avoid risk of depressions in the sheets if there was not a sheet supporter.

Edited January 12, 2017 by The Stationmaster

[DonB]

Thanks Mike, yes with a full load like this I will be sheeting it over completely -  these are just quick tests of  the look and feel of this material. There's an interesting photo here btw, things looking a bit more loose than the very tight sheets we tend to model: https://marketlavingtonmuseum.wordpress.com/2015/01/17/another-photo-of-lavington-station/

 

But you do raise a point that I have been wondering about: I seem to remember seeing photos where smaller loads were in fact sheeted inside the wagon. I can't find any showing a moving train, but a couple of possible examples in yards here:

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrms758a.htm (second wagon)

http://www.nrm.org.uk/ourcollection/photo?group=Derby&objid=1997-7397_DY_1697 (on the left)

 

 

If these are actually loaded wagons, what would the criteria be for when the sheeting went inside, I wonder?

 

In the first (Lavington) picture the two wagons have Brake levers on one side only which, I thought would date them to about Pre-1910,( .the caption asks for dating information)....BUT then the note attached to the Warwickshire picture indicates that such wagons could have existed until 1938! Interesting also that the Sheet support rails were retro-fitted, did the GWR have a patent granted.? 

[The Stationmaster]

In the first (Lavington) picture the two wagons have Brake levers on one side only which, I thought would date them to about Pre-1910,( .the caption asks for dating information)....BUT then the note attached to the Warwickshire picture indicates that such wagons could have existed until 1938! Interesting also that the Sheet support rails were retro-fitted, did the GWR have a patent granted.? 

 

They are described in GWR  sources as ' Williams' Patent Sheet Supporter'  (we called them 'sheet rails' in my time) but I can\'t find out which Williams it happened to be.

[Compound2632]

I wonder if they're part unloaded wagons or wagons being made ready for unloading and the sheets have been folded out of the way?  I'll have look and see if I can find it any sheeting was authorised or allowed to be inside like that. 

 

From the Bob Essery article in Midland Record No. 3, LMS instructions (no date):

"145. When it is impossible to cover the load without producing hollow sheeting, merchandise liable to damage by wet [sic] must be wrapped in a sheet, and, where necessary, two sheets used. The load should be so disposed that it will not damage the sheet by contact with sharp or projecting traffic in the event of the weight of accumulated water pressing the sheet on to the load."

 

Also:

"143 (b) When two sheets are used to cover a load [i.e. as the outer layer, not one inside the other] , the overlap must be to the rear of the train during the journey, or, failing this, during the principal part thereof, so as to prevent sparks, wind, or rain getting underneath the sheet."

 

There were also linen sheets for cloth, as an under-sheet to the usual wagon sheet: "cloth would be liable to serious damage if loaded in direct contact with an oil-dressed tarpaulin sheet." These sheets were held at Salford Station.

 

Note also that wagon sheets were strictly for wagons; LMS late 30s: for storage in open yards, condemned traffic [i.e. wagon] sheets were reconditioned and branded with the name of the station to which they were allocated; these sheets were known as 'farm' or 'yard' sheets. "It is against the Company's regulations for traffic sheets to be utilised for terminal purposes, and for all such purposes 'farm' sheets must be used."

 

There were also linen sheets for use as dust covers in warehouses: "The use of these linen warehouse sheets is restricted, they are supplied upon representation being made by Agents to their District Goods Manager with a covering communication, and if approved, Stores requisition is submitted, with particulars of the circumstances to Headquarters for authorisation of issue by the Chief Stores Superintendent." 

 

Don't even start on ropes and sacks...

[Mikkel]

Excellent info, thanks especially for all the typing, Compound. I delved into GWR Goods Wagons (Atkins et al), and found this in extension of the above:
 
The sheet supporters were first introduced on the O4 five-plankers in 1902, and as Mike says the design adopted was the Williams type (no mention of who he was). Incidentally it also says that before the Williams patent...
 
"The Marillier patent sheet supporter was tried on an undiagrammed four-planker, but unlike his cattle truck partition device (with F.G. Wright) it was not adopted. Some four-plankers received supporters later …” (p 276)

 

Later the sheet rail was abandoned (hence the later version of the O4 diagram without sheet rail), and as usual it was all someone else's fault:

 
“The sheet fabric, of canvas treated with oil and carbon black, tended to form pin holes even with careful usage. When wagon tarpaulins (21ft by 14ft 4 in weighing about 77lb) were extended over a ridge, rain ran over the pin holes; but without a supporter, hollow sheeting was difficult to avoid, which collected water which leaked though on the goods. Since the GWR could not convince the LMS and LNER of the value of the supporter, and since all wagons were mixed up in the pool, the GWR decided to stop spending money on common user stock which was not reciprocated.” (p2)

Edited January 12, 2017 by Mikkel

[Mikkel]

PS: A good illustration of the problem can be seen here: http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrhd678.htm

[DonB]

Another photo from the same source... http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrhd756.htm...Shows an empty(?) wagon with a sheet draped and folded over its raised supporter.

Also to be seen are couple of road wagons with sheeting over the driver's position.

 

This site has seen much improvement over the last few years since I used it as my prime information source when making my entry into the 2013 challenge,... many more Photos and enlarged and enhanced notes and descriptions, some one has been very busy collecting and collating the extra information !!

[Silver Sidelines]

Better still

 

Ray

Edited January 12, 2017 by Silver Sidelines

[Mikkel]

Another photo from the same source... http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrhd756.htm...Shows an empty(?) wagon with a sheet draped and folded over its raised supporter.

Also to be seen are couple of road wagons with sheeting over the driver's position.

 

This site has seen much improvement over the last few years since I used it as my prime information source when making my entry into the 2013 challenge,... many more Photos and enlarged and enhanced notes and descriptions, some one has been very busy collecting and collating the extra information !!

 

Good find Don, that wagon with the folded sheet would make an interesting cameo for a goods yard. Maybe half loaded and a gang at work!

 

I agree that the Warwickshire site is brilliant. You can vote for it in the BMR Awards!

 

As for the horse drawn wagons, I'll need several more of those for the goods yard at Farthing. I built this one earlier - using the back of a Smiths sheet for the tarp:

 

Edited January 12, 2017 by Mikkel

[Mikkel]

Note also that wagon sheets were strictly for wagons; LMS late 30s: for storage in open yards, condemned traffic [i.e. wagon] sheets were reconditioned and branded with the name of the station to which they were allocated; these sheets were known as 'farm' or 'yard' sheets. "It is against the Company's regulations for traffic sheets to be utilised for terminal purposes, and for all such purposes 'farm' sheets must be used."

 

I thought that was interesting. I suppose the reason is that the sheets would more easily be damaged and worn when used "in the rough" in yards. Here is a nice photo from Lawley Street depot in 1910, showing yard sheets in MR days. They do not appear to be branded at this time - or perhaps it was just so small it cannot be seen:

 

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/mrls308.htm

 

Close-up here:  http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/mrls308a.htm

 

Incidentally, I've always fancied modelling some of the "open frame crates" (sorry my English comes up short here!) that appear on the left. They are also seen in GWR goods depots at the time, some of them appearing to be quite flimsy.

[Donw]

PS: A good illustration of the problem can be seen here: http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrhd678.htm

 

Fascinating discussion Mikkel and the Horse drawn wagon looks very good. However quite aside from the wagons I noticed the ladder against the building. If is a very long ladder for a single section and would not have been easy to manoeuvre.

Don 

[Siberian Snooper]

I thought that was interesting. I suppose the reason is that the sheets would more easily be damaged and worn when used "in the rough" in yards. Here is a nice photo from Lawley Street depot in 1910, showing yard sheets in MR days. They do not appear to be branded at this time - or perhaps it was just so small it cannot be seen:

 

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/mrls308.htm

 

Close-up here:  http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/mrls308a.htm

 

Incidentally, I've always fancied modelling some of the "open frame crates" (sorry my English comes up short here!) that appear on the left. They are also seen in GWR goods depots at the time, some of them appearing to be quite flimsy.

 

Nothing wrong with your English there Mikkel, open framed crates is how I would have described them.

[Mikkel]

Fascinating discussion Mikkel and the Horse drawn wagon looks very good. However quite aside from the wagons I noticed the ladder against the building. If is a very long ladder for a single section and would not have been easy to manoeuvre.

Don 

 

Yes! A scale model of that would soon be criticized    I wonder if the GWR standardized on ladders. Probably! 

 

Nothing wrong with your English there Mikkel, open framed crates is how I would have described them.

 

Thanks, knowing the right words is a start! Apart from the more sturdy open framed crates, there were also these simple designs that I think we discussed briefly somewhere else on here: http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrhd709a.htm (edit: I mean the flimsy broken one).

Edited January 13, 2017 by Mikkel

[Stubby47]

Long ladders can often be seen at National Trust ( or similar) stately homes, Trelissick near Truro has a selection. There was probably not a shortage of man-power, which sectional ladders don't need.

[ChrisN]

Yes! A scale model of that would soon be criticized    I wonder if the GWR standardized on ladders. Probably! 

 

 

Thanks, knowing the right words is a start! Apart from the more sturdy open framed crates, there were also these simple designs that I think we discussed briefly somewhere else on here: http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrhd709a.htm (edit: I mean the flimsy broken one).

 

Mikkel,

I wonder if those tall broken ones were packed around something?  There is another broken crate further along, so I wonder what the 'call-offer' would have to say to that?

 

If the wagons were not loaded until everything arrived, what would happen if the load for wagon 5 all arrived first?  Would it be loaded and wait for numbers 1-4 to be finished or would it be shunted out and the others put back in place with the possibility that you would get the wrong ones next to the load?

[Donw]

Long ladders can often be seen at National Trust ( or similar) stately homes, Trelissick near Truro has a selection. There was probably not a shortage of man-power, which sectional ladders don't need.

 

The problem with heavy ladders is raising them from the flat to the vertical, a sectional ladder would weight more than that a single piece one but would be much easier to raise to vertical a single one would require more persons to raise it than were needed to carry it. Storage of such long ladders is also more awkward. Wuhen moving a ladder I would normally keep it fairly close to vertical as it is much easier to manoeuvre through gateways etc.  Trying to move a very long ladder about is much more troublesome and would be very unstable held near to vertical. Even with sufficient man power. 

 

Don

[The Stationmaster]

Long ladders can often be seen at National Trust ( or similar) stately homes, Trelissick near Truro has a selection. There was probably not a shortage of man-power, which sectional ladders don't need.

 

Rick ladders (used when building haystacks and ricking bundles of grain of grain) were normally one piece and could be pretty long judging by some examples I can recall from very many years ago.

[Brassey]

Long ladders; the LNWR had some too:

 

 

 

[Penlan]

I would say that's a two piece ladder, looking at the thicker section in the middle.

But Rick ladders can be very long, I know I have a picture of some, somewhere.

Edited January 14, 2017 by Penlan

[Mikkel]

Ganger P. Quince is intrigued by the discussion on ladders, and wonders whether the long ladders were possibly the same as those for water towers?

 

 

 

Mikkel,

I wonder if those tall broken ones were packed around something?  There is another broken crate further along, so I wonder what the 'call-offer' would have to say to that?

 

If the wagons were not loaded until everything arrived, what would happen if the load for wagon 5 all arrived first?  Would it be loaded and wait for numbers 1-4 to be finished or would it be shunted out and the others put back in place with the possibility that you would get the wrong ones next to the load?

 

Chris, other photos show those light wood containers with straw in them, which was probably used for packing around something - so I think you are right. Perhaps a way of making irregularly shaped/sized goods more manegeable for handling. There seems to have been many different sizes.   

 

As for the wagon loading, I assume the innermost ones would have to wait for the others. But what the specific practices were I don't know. I have read a description of how wagons were distributed on arrival in a goods depot, but I don't recall reading anything about the procedures when they left it again.

Edited January 14, 2017 by Mikkel

[Miss Prism]

If someone wants to write me a 'Beginners guide to Great Western ladders', please feel free...

[Siberian Snooper]

I don't think there is a standard crate, I have seen them in a multitude of shapes and sizes and from quite flimsy to nigh on indestructible.