Pragmatic Pre-Grouping - Mikkel's Workbench

[Mikkel]

Hi Mike, ah the good old Hornby chassis... Ok so it can't live up to today's standards, but think of all the locos it has brought to life over the years!

 

The "1804" designation is a bit of a mystery. The assumption is that it was a typo, and there is evidence that Wills did in fact intend to do an 1854 (see the comment in this blog post). Oddly though, the instructions repeatedly state 1804 rather than 1854, and the text refers to two particular photos - one of which doesn't exist,I've checked! - which seems a bit strange given that this was a fairly large class.

 

That said, the kit fits the Swindon 1854 drawing in Russell pretty well.

[ChrisN]

Mikkel,

Very interesting as I may need to build some GWR locos.  I have looked but could not find as yet when they went from side to saddle tanks or did this class start as saddle?

[Mikkel]

Hi Chris, they started with saddle tanks when first introduced in 1890. The first lots built from 1890-1893 started off with five course tanks and dome at the front, while those built in 1895 had three course tanks and the dome further to the back. Later as the class were rebuilt the tank types were used interchangeably.

 

The Finecast body has three course tanks. Your period is 1895 onwards I think, so it would fit.  Geographically it would also fit Traeth Mawr (better than Farthing), as the majority were in Wales as I understand it.

[Mikkel]

On with the 1854 build. My strategy is to modify the kit rather than the chassis. That way, I can replace the chassis without too much bother in the event of a future motor failure. So far, the only necessary work on the chassis seems to be a little shortening of the front and rear section, like this: 

 

 

 

Then on to the castings. I removed the lugs where the sides join the buffer beam, as these fowl the Bachmann chassis (modified part below, original above):

 

 

 

The corresponding lump on the front bufferbeam also had to come off:

 

 

 

In order to clear the motor, I had to slim down a section of the footplate and splashers by about 1 mm each side (as seen one the bottom casting here). Fortunately this doesn’t seem too noticeable.

 

 

 

A dry assembly with the help of a bit of bluetack revealed that the front and center splashers are slightly too close together, compared to the wheels. Normally I wouldn’t hesitate to replace the offending splashers with scratchbuilt ones, but I’m debating whether it’s worth it in this case...

 

 

 

The gears do protrude a little into the cab, but only at the bottom. A little creative work with the backhead and plastikard will conceal it sufficiently I think. 

 

 

 

 

[ChrisN]

Hi Chris, they started with saddle tanks when first introduced in 1890. The first lots built from 1890-1893 started off with five course tanks and dome at the front, while those built in 1895 had three course tanks and the dome further to the back. Later as the class were rebuilt the tank types were used interchangeably.

 

The Finecast body has three course tanks. Your period is 1895 onwards I think, so it would fit.  Geographically it would also fit Traeth Mawr (better than Farthing), as the majority were in Wales as I understand it.

 

Mikkel,

Thank you.  I am modelling Spring 1895 so I would have to have one straight out of the works.  It is the wrong company anyway but the GWR had running powers if the Cambrian could not supply the motive power.  In real life it never happened, but on my model it may well do.

[bgman]

Hi Grahame, is there any kit in the world that is not in your cupboard?   A real Aladdin's cave, I think!

 

Now you've stared me off again!

It's gotta be in here somewhere?

 

 

Nope! Must be in another box ?

 

Years of buying and now I'm retired.....need I say more ?

 

I like your solution with the chassis I might just pinch that idea if you don't mind.

 

Cheers

Grahame

[MikeOxon]

It's good to see it coming together.  I thought of opening up mine but can't remember how I fixed it.  I used a screw at the side, as in the original Hornby pannier, but it's still reluctant to separate.  It's interesting that you've found the splashers to be slightly too close together - no wonder the Hornby chassis looks so bad, with its excessive wheel spacing.

[MikeOxon]

 I have looked but could not find as yet when they went from side to saddle tanks or did this class start as saddle?

The RCTS Locomotives of the GWR, Part Five, is a fount of knowledge on the evolution of all these classes and describes how they gradually merged into a common design.  One complication was the re-building of Swindon classes at Wolverhampton and vice versa, which led to all sorts of 'hybrids' until about 1905.

 

The 1854 class (Swindon) started as saddles and conversion to panniers started around 1910, except no.1868, which may have received them as early as 1905.

 

The 1813 class (Swindon) started as side tanks and re-building with saddles started around 1894.  Oddly, no.1853 (which is the number plate supplied by Wills) retained its side tanks until 1912, when it was fitted with panniers, never having carried a saddle!

 

The 645/1501 class were the 'equivalents', built at Wolverhampton and most of these were always 'Northern division' engines. The most obvious visual difference from the Swindon engines was their shallow valances below the footplate, when compared with the deep and heavy valances applied at Swindon.

 

That's only a superficial skim over the subject and, for modelling a particular prototype at a specific date, a thorough read of the RCTS booklet is necessary.

Edited May 2, 2015 by MikeOxon

[hayfield]

Hi John, thanks - you raise an important point. I was planning to have a look around for some brass fittings if available, as I find these can make a huge difference on these elderly kits (that and getting the body height right). I'm not sure whether the fittings that came with the kit are in fact the upgraded ones, but some look a little coarse to me. If there aren't any brass ones around I'll get in touch with Dave Ellis and see what he has, thanks for that tip!

 

Mikkel

 

Yes the brass turnings and lost wax castings are much better, SEF's are whitemetal, but if you are lucky there may be an etched fret as well. They now do an etched chassis with all the bells and whistles, normally with at least lamp irons and etched wheel weights, but there may be some additional cab details

 

I built one of these Wills body kits about 35 years ago, when it cost about £8   I managed to fit it onto an old Hornby 8750 Pannier chassis, which involved cutting away a lot of white metal, as I recall.  It didn't seem to suffer from the loss, though I can see that the footplate looks slightly curved in the attached photo (not noticeable in practice) which might be a symptom of weakness.

 

Wills1854.jpg

 

Looking at it now, it really needs a complete re-build!  I had been oblivious to the fluted coupling rods issue but the fact that the Hornby chassis has the wrong wheelbase (even for its original application) is glaringly obvious and the motor intrudes into the cab.  

 

In addition, the cast number plates, which came with the kit, bear the number 1853, which belonged to the 1813 class.  Although very similar to the 1854 class, the frames of the 1813 were shorter at the back and I don't think 1853 ever actually carried a saddle tank, being converted directly from side tanks to panniers!  Wills seem to have been rather cavalier with their numbering, as I notice that the box in Mikkel's photo states '1804 class', whereas the real 1804 was a Wolverhampton loco of the 645/1501 class!

 

I'll be interested to see how you get on with matching the body to the Bachmann chassis.

 

Mike

 

Mike one quick win are the Mainly Trains etched brass replacement coupling rods, either straight or fluted. They also do the same for the Hornby Dublo / Wrenn R1

Edited April 26, 2015 by hayfield

[Mikkel]

I like your solution with the chassis I might just pinch that idea if you don't mind.

 

Of course, but maybe best to wait and see if mine works out OK! I did test out dimensions etc before starting, but you never know what problems might appear - eg I hadn't caught the splasher issue at first. The main challenge will be the tanks, but cutting away the side skirts should help. 

 

I like your Gibson Buffalo with panniers, you'll have to finish it now!

 

 

It's interesting that you've found the splashers to be slightly too close together - no wonder the Hornby chassis looks so bad, with its excessive wheel spacing.

 

The prototype was 7'3" + 8'3". Using the scale converter app, that works out at about 28.9 + 32.9 in scale mms. The Bachmann chassis is 29 + 33 mms by my measurements, so that's about right.

 

The Finecast chassis is approx 28 mms between the leading and center splashers. Looks like each splasher should be about 0.5 mms further out. It's hard to capture in a photo because of lens distortion, but the first photo below shows what I mean. The next photo shows that it's easily missed!  A bigger issue is perhaps the rear splasher, which is too far forward and the curve is off.

 

 

 

 

Mikkel

 

Yes the brass turnings and lost wax castings are much better, SEF's are whitemetal, but if you are lucky there may be an etched fret as well. They now do an etched chassis with all the bells and whistles, normally with at least lamp irons and etched wheel weights, but there may be some additional cab details

 

 

Mike one quick win are the Mainly Trains etched brass replacement coupling rods, either straight or fluted. They also do the same for the Hornby Dublo / Wrenn R1

 

Thanks again for the info John,  I'll get in touch with him and see what he's got.

[Mikkel]

The LSWR stone wagon is now painted and ready to serve:

 

 

 

I used to spend a lot of time trying to get the interior of wagons right with multiple shades of paint. To save time I now use a less subtle but quicker method. First step is to paint the interior 1-2 coats of Vallejo pale sand. This looks wrong but provides the necessary light base.

 

 

 

 

When fully dry, I add a liberal dose of Carr’s dark black weathering powder. Lighter shades won’t work so well at this point, it has to be that rich dark powder that really gives off colour:

 

 

 

After brushing all around the interior with a soft brush, I remove the surplus weathering powder, giving this result:

 

 

 

Ligther shades of grey weathering powder can be used to add shades as appropriate for the type of load.

 

 

 

 

[N15class]

Very nice Mikkel

 

I do like your idea for the insides, do you use anything th fix the powder?

 

When is the 0395 class in lovely Adams's goods green arriving to pull this?

[Mikkel]

Hi Pete, no I don't actually use any fixative. Partly because I haven't found it necessary so far (we rarely touch the inside of a wagon) and partly because I'm worried it would get on the outside of the wagon. I suppose the powders may fade over the really long run, but that kind of natural fading tends to look quite natural, I think.

 

Funny you should mention the 0395, I was going to ask you when you have it ready for me? 

[N15class]

Think mine might be a tad on the large size.

[2ManySpams]

Think mine might be a tad on the large size.

I'll have it if you throw in the Beattie Well Tank.

[Mikkel]

Back to the 1854 class. I’ve decided that the splashers are good enough, so I just cleaned up the rear set to give them a rounder curve, and that’s it. The footplate, cab and bunker have been assembled:

 

 

 

I’ve lifted the footplate 0.5 mms to get the correct riding height. A couple of plastikard pieces at the front and rear achieved this.

 

 

 

I’ve made a couple of small “optional” mods that aren’t strictly necessary, but which will help improve appearances. One is to hack off the buffers and file down the rather odd-looking rivets on the bufferbeams. These will be replaced later, I found some Alan Gibson buffers in the spares box.

 

 

 

I also cut the chassis back a bit further to remove the sandboxes, sand pipes and guard irons. The sandboxes weren’t visible on the 1854s in my period, and the Bachmann guard irons look a bit starved. I’ll add my own sand pipes and guard irons later.

 

 

 

Then the real carnage began. I sawed off the sideskirts beneath the saddle tank sides, as seen on the bottom casting. This was partly to clear the motor, and partly to bring out that nice daylight beneath the Bachmann boiler. 

 

 

 

The underside of the tanks also had to be narrowed a little, this can’t be seen anyway. The photo below shows the tanks seen from below, one as supplied (above), the other modified.

 

 

 

To my surprise, that’s all there was to it: The tank sides now fit neatly around the engine, and the whole body can be tilted on and off the chassis without fouling the motor.

 

 

 

Best of all, the tank sides don’t sit too high on the chassis, something I was eager to avoid.  In fact they may even need to be raised a little.

 

 

 

This project is going suspiciously well. There must be a hitch somewhere!

Edited May 2, 2015 by Mikkel

[MikeOxon]

It does look to be going well!  It's nice to see daylight below the tanks and your frames are a lot straighter than mine  

 

Perhaps I should add mine to the list for re-building.

 

Mike

[hayfield]

Mikkel

 

Nice work, looking very good

[Mikkel]

It does look to be going well!  It's nice to see daylight below the tanks and your frames are a lot straighter than mine

 

Perhaps I should add mine to the list for re-building.

 

Mike

 

Mike, if you decide to use the Bachmann chassis it's worth keeping in mind that there will be different variants out there on the secondhand market. I have a couple of the "old" chassis that were used under the former version of the 57xx body - seen on the left below (loco ref 31-900). This is higher and the chassis block is longer, and so is less ideal for conversion purposes. It was discontinued by Bachmann some years ago and instead they released the 8750 with the more modern cab and the chassis I'm using for this conversion (on the right, loco ref 32-200).

 

 

I believe Bachmann are now again doing a 57xx cab version. I assume this has the more recent chassis, or maybe an even newer one?

[Silver Sidelines]

Some fine work.  You might want a change of scene when the engine is complete.  I noted that banana traffic is too modern, now what about Witney Blankets?

 

I also came across this 1920s picture of fruit and vegetables in transit at Birmingham Moor Street.  Quite sobering when you think of the vast quantities that must pass through the doors of today's supermarkets.

 

Regards

 

Ray

Edited May 4, 2015 by Silver Sidelines

[Mikkel]

Hi Ray, thanks for those links. I had seen the blanket photo before but not in this large resolution. It's an appealing job, although also time consuming I think. Still, having a procession of GWR horse drawn vehicles like that would be quite a sight in model form. Thanks for the inspiration!

[Silver Sidelines]

Hello Mikkel

 

I was under the impression that all Railway Modelling was very time consuming - certainly that is my wife's opinion.

 

Ray

[MikeOxon]

 now what about Witney Blankets?

 

Hey! - they're on my patch   I've even seen a photo of a blanket train with a 'Queen' 2-2-2 in charge - bet it slipped a bit!

 

Mike

[Mikkel]

I also came across this 1920s picture of fruit and vegetables in transit at Birmingham Moor Street.  Quite sobering when you think of the vast quantities that must pass through the doors of today's supermarkets.

 

Ray, have you seen the photo series from large goods depots on the Warwickshire Railways site. I keep coming back to them, eg:

 

Moor Street: http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/moorstreet-goods.htm

 

Birmingham Central: http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/centralgoods.htm

 

Hockley Goods: http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/hockley_goods_part1.htm

 

Curzon Street: http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/curzonstreet_goods.htm

 

Lawley Street: http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/lawleystreet.htm

[DonB]

The Moor Street Goods picture.....

 

 

I also came across this 1920s picture of fruit and vegetables in transit at Birmingham Moor Street.  Quite sobering when you think of the vast quantities that must pass through the doors of today's supermarkets.

 

 

I have never seen a travelling overhead crane with an underslung jib crane! Got to admire the courage of the operator on the jib's platform (I have worked in several factories with O/H cranes)