Hornby Merchant Navy announced (formerly Facebook leak)

[Brit70053]

I commented in the 'BRM January 2017' thread that it was good to see the review sample of the Crostie 9F credited as being supplied by Hornby. Was that a false dawn ?

I'd certainly take Chris Leigh at his word on the situation.

 

Regards,

John

[Roy Langridge]

It's also worth restating here that CJL buys any Hornby model he reviews in Model Rail. I think I am correct in the assumption that Hornby in fact do not own Hornby Magazine but obviously there is a kind of "arrangement" in strictly legal terms in consideration of the use of the brand name.We don't know.All very curious and certainly not a level playing field for the hobby magazines which leaves one with an uncomfortable feeling of lack of fairness and objectivity.

A shame really,considering the dawn of a more open approach from Hornby.There are however some modellers who dismiss the magazines as irrelevant in this day and age and feel reviews happen online. Of course they do but we still need the opinion of those,as Hilux correctly states "know what's going on" and have knowledge and experience.I make a plea that Hornby end this anomaly and release their products for magazine review.

Model magazines have always had arrangements with companies, that is nothing new. In this case is it an unfair advantage or just good and clever marketing on the part of Key Publishing to get an arrangement with Hornby?

 

Roy

[Legend]

I'm afraid I'm one of those that think mag reviews are less useful. I still read them, but I look at You Tube for reviews of new models. Simple reasoning is that you get to see how they run . You also get the view of a likeminded enthusiast . If there is something that's wrong he won't hold back , whereas I always think magazines are a bit more reserved in their approach . At the end of the day You tubers present the model , you view it and make the decision on whether to buy or not.

 

I also think that for a long time people in the hobby , mag editors, marketing managers etc , who all knew each other and had been in their positions for years, operated a bit like a Gentlemans club. Praise was free flowing but criticism, if any, was a bit more under wraps. So actually I'm very happy at Hornbys direct to the buying public approach. I think they have felt the need to supplement this with some Mag reviews and I believe at the time of 2017 range launch at Warley actually referred to an arrangement with Hornby Magazine , isn't there supposed to be a regular column?

 

Back to the Merchant Navy , way out of my geographical range , but I'll certainly keep an eye on Youtube for reviews. I originally wasnt interested in the Peckett but S&DJR88 s review put me in the notion for a blue one , which is a lovely little model. If Hornby do a BR blue MN I think I'd be tempted . Something different to run on the layout

[Hilux5972]

I believe that Hornby and Hornby Magazine must have created some kind of deal as the Magazine is now being advertised in the current Hornby Catalogue.

[adb968008]

I believe that Hornby and Hornby Magazine must have created some kind of deal as the Magazine is now being advertised in the current Hornby Catalogue.

If you watch the Facebook page for Hornby, at Warley in November, there was a ppt slide in the presentation, saying the arrangement between Hornby magazine and Hornby was being continued (I think it said for another 5 years).

[Roy Langridge]

It is a licensing arrangement that I assume will likely remain in place, with extensions, as long as it is mutually beneficial to both sides. Whether there is a financial component or simply Hornby see this as being good marketing for them I do not know.

 

Roy

[trevor7598]

I must admit I have often thought that if a magazine was presented with a truly awful model

to review, would they dumb down their criticism so as not to upset the manufacturer, who

might just be a valued advertiser.

I usually value on line reviewers opinion, such as Jenny Kirk, as someone has already said

these people are free to say what they think. Also when a demonstration video is included

in the review we can see that tempting model in action. Good or bad.

[rembrow]

As has been said, Hornby magazine appear to have an arrangement with Hornby, to get production models for review. Hornby probably have samples from the production flown in, the Hornby mag review had two different Merchant Navy models in the review. What I suspect has happened, is that the production was not completed and shipped before the effects of CNN took hold, and as one other producer told us in December, the effects on available workers occurred earlier than usual, as people tried to travel by rail when fares were cheaper.

[45568]

Ahhh, It just would not be Hornby without a random delay. Good job chaps!

Now Bachmann, where are my Moguls...and Coal Tanks?

Alex

Your Mogul and Coal Tanks???  Randomly delayed! Ahh well, it just wouldn't be Bachmann without a 4-year wait ffrom announcement ! Good Job Chaps!

 Now Hornby, where are my Pecketts and B12s?  Oh, I got them before Christmas, in the year they were promised... Poor show again from Hornby!

Sarcastically yours,

From Oz,

Peter C.

[griffgriff]

Member Dibber25 has made observations of Hornby Magazine's access to Hornby models to review in at least one thread recently.

First impressions might suggest sour grapes but Chris is an old salt and perhaps he's subtlety defending his journalistic integrity.

[Guest Midland Mole]

Your Mogul and Coal Tanks???  Randomly delayed! Ahh well, it just wouldn't be Bachmann without a 4-year wait ffrom announcement ! Good Job Chaps!

 Now Hornby, where are my Pecketts and B12s?  Oh, I got them before Christmas, in the year they were promised... Poor show again from Hornby!

Sarcastically yours,

From Oz,

Peter C.

 

You seem to have (possibly wilfully) not understood my point. I was making a joke about the fact the Bachmann locos have been delayed as well. I was NOT saying Hornby are in any way worse than Bachmann on that point.

My post was referencing the fact that the Mogul and Coal Tank have both just been delayed as well. Unfortunately that does not seem to have come across very well.

But as I said in the other post, you seemingly have something against me so I wont be responding again.

Alex

Edited February 5, 2017 by Midland Mole

[Legend]

Actually Hornby are vastly improved on their position a few years ago. I think the MN is the only loco in their 2016 announcements that has been deferred, and they did tell us about that sometime ago . I appreciate that they have different ways of announcing models , but in Bachmanns case taking up to 4 years to bring a model to market really is stretching credibility a bit. And it's not just Moguls and Coal Tanks, there's 158s 2Fs etc to add to list. Hornby delays are at least months not years!

[Robin Brasher]

Assuming that the 'Royal Mail' comes out on 10 March 2017 this delay pales into insignificance compared with Hornby's delay in supplying sufficient quantities of the Maunsell pull push sets and Kernow's delay in supplying the LSWR pull push sets that were announced before Hornby's pull push sets. Now my email provider has told me that it will cancel my account in June due to lack of advertising revenue and several credit cards have expired so I will have to update my orders. One of my friends has died so he never lived to see the LSWR pull push sets.

 

Recently I think that Hornby and Oxfordrail have done very well in keeping their products close to schedule. It looks like 'Royal Mail' and the other products will be worth waiting for.

[GeoffBird]

On the Hornvby Website there is now a new date for arrival of 21C1 - 10th March 2017.

[lochlongside]

On the Hornvby Website there is now a new date for arrival of 21C1 - 10th March 2017.

No-one else commented so also noted off Hornby website R3382TTS - Holland Afrika Line has now slipped out to Summer 2017

as a matter of interest I noted the following changes noted on dates indicated for delivery for un-rebuilt MN

 

4/3/16HbySays30/9/16

11/3/16HbySays27/11/16

7/5/16HbySays2017Q1

21/1/17HbySays19Feb17

12/02/17-HbySays summer17

Currently Hattons say on or after 19 Feb 2017 and MRD say Apr 2017

[The Johnster]

I'm afraid I'm one of those that think mag reviews are less useful. I still read them, but I look at You Tube for reviews of new models. Simple reasoning is that you get to see how they run . You also get the view of a likeminded enthusiast . If there is something that's wrong he won't hold back , whereas I always think magazines are a bit more reserved in their approach . At the end of the day You tubers present the model , you view it and make the decision on whether to buy or not.

 

I also think that for a long time people in the hobby , mag editors, marketing managers etc , who all knew each other and had been in their positions for years, operated a bit like a Gentlemans club. Praise was free flowing but criticism, if any, was a bit more under wraps. So actually I'm very happy at Hornbys direct to the buying public approach. I think they have felt the need to supplement this with some Mag reviews and I believe at the time of 2017 range launch at Warley actually referred to an arrangement with Hornby Magazine , isn't there supposed to be a regular column?

 

Back to the Merchant Navy , way out of my geographical range , but I'll certainly keep an eye on Youtube for reviews. I originally wasnt interested in the Peckett but S&DJR88 s review put me in the notion for a blue one , which is a lovely little model. If Hornby do a BR blue MN I think I'd be tempted . Something different to run on the layout

 

I tend to agree about magazine reviews, in any subject not just model railway rtr.  Even if there is no direct connection between the mag and the manufacturer, there is a commonality of interest; the manufacturer wants to sell product, and the publisher wants to sell magazines so they by default and probably without being particularly aware of it use language which avoids negative connotations.

 

You have to learn this language to be able to interpret it; 'well worth looking at if you are in the market for a' ....' or 'up to the standard we have come to expect from this manufacturer' sound very upbeat but are actually pretty non-committal; 'good quality for the price' damns with faint praise as well.

 

If they really like a product, then terms like ' a game changer in this field' or 'superb quality and value' come in to play, and if they don't, things become a bit more circumspect with 'entry level' or 'a superb item for those seeking an inexpensive introduction to the hobby' starting to appear.  I have never seen a magazine review of anything that suggests that the item is bad in any way!

 

But at least the reviews are informative once you've learned to interpret the salespeak.  YouTube reviews tend to be a bit amatuer, opinionated, badly filmed, and, even if unintentionally, not particularly informative.  

 

It is not so much an issue with an established model, or a new one with a chassis to a design with which we are all familiar; we know how it will run, and what standard of realism we can expect.  The problem is trying to make an informed judgement when something from a new manufacturer like Oxford, or to a new design from an old hand, turns up; until a few people have bought them and commented on sites such as this one it is a bit of a leap of faith to hand your beer vouchers over for something that might turn out to be another Airfix 14xx, which to be fair was a good idea at the time and I thought the sprung 'ball point' pickups were an excellent development.

 

People these days (now I know I'm turning into and grumpy old man) have very high expectations of rtr manufacturers, whereas back in my modelling youth when colour hadn't been invented and everything was in black and white and we didn't have television then, you know, we had to make our own entertainment, you were happy if your Triang Hornby offering wasn't too badly off the mark dimensionally so you could make something of it.  I recall the 'silver seal' Black 5 which is the same mould as the current Thomas Railroad 'Henry', complete with skirts under the boiler and not much in the way of detail below the footplate, being very well reviewed in the model press at the time, moulded handrails, overscale pressed valve gear and all!  We knew our place, peasants that we were, and were grateful for anything our Lords and Masters provided for us.  Kids today, don't know they're born.  

 

Things have improved and will continue to do so, because that is what the market demands.  Things will also get more expensive because costs are increasing and the market will bear it.

Edited February 13, 2017 by The Johnster

[Legend]

Lol . Yes tend to agree . I remember when the Black 5 first came out in 73 . We were so happy to receive it, even though the detailing was poor. I think it's accepted that Hornby only upped their game when Mainline and Airfix appeared, then again with Clan Line to compete with Bachmann

 

There are some good reviews on YouTube though. I'd cite S&DJR88 from on here as being one, but there are others too. What amazes me is that they all acquire the latest model straight away. Reverting to your grumpy old man mode in my day you were lucky to get one loco a year. And the key thing about YouTube is you can see it running , see how much a load it can take , and the reviewer , amateur or not, will tell you his likes or dislikes openly. You can then make your own mind up. Reviews are only ever for guidance. Looking forward to seeing the Merchant Navy. I'm holding out until they release a blue one.........unless

Edited February 13, 2017 by Legend

[Budgie]

Some things I'd like reviews to state are the maximum and minimum speeds in both DC and DCC, and the drawbar force, together with the number of coaches and/or wagons the locomotive will pull on a level test track with radius 2 curves. (Model Railroader does this for the locomotives it reviews.) 

[The Johnster]

Some things I'd like reviews to state are the maximum and minimum speeds in both DC and DCC, and the drawbar force, together with the number of coaches and/or wagons the locomotive will pull on a level test track with radius 2 curves. (Model Railroader does this for the locomotives it reviews.) 

 

And the minimum speed at which it can be reliably and smoothly started and stopped.

[JSpencer]

I tend to agree about magazine reviews, in any subject not just model railway rtr.  Even if there is no direct connection between the mag and the manufacturer, there is a commonality of interest; the manufacturer wants to sell product, and the publisher wants to sell magazines so they by default and probably without being particularly aware of it use language which avoids negative connotations.

 

You have to learn this language to be able to interpret it; 'well worth looking at if you are in the market for a' ....' or 'up to the standard we have come to expect from this manufacturer' sound very upbeat but are actually pretty non-committal; 'good quality for the price' damns with faint praise as well.

 

If they really like a product, then terms like ' a game changer in this field' or 'superb quality and value' come in to play, and if they don't, things become a bit more circumspect with 'entry level' or 'a superb item for those seeking an inexpensive introduction to the hobby' starting to appear.  I have never seen a magazine review of anything that suggests that the item is bad in any way!

 

But at least the reviews are informative once you've learned to interpret the salespeak.  YouTube reviews tend to be a bit amatuer, opinionated, badly filmed, and, even if unintentionally, not particularly informative.  

 

It is not so much an issue with an established model, or a new one with a chassis to a design with which we are all familiar; we know how it will run, and what standard of realism we can expect.  The problem is trying to make an informed judgement when something from a new manufacturer like Oxford, or to a new design from an old hand, turns up; until a few people have bought them and commented on sites such as this one it is a bit of a leap of faith to hand your beer vouchers over for something that might turn out to be another Airfix 14xx, which to be fair was a good idea at the time and I thought the sprung 'ball point' pickups were an excellent development.

 

People these days (now I know I'm turning into and grumpy old man) have very high expectations of rtr manufacturers, whereas back in my modelling youth when colour hadn't been invented and everything was in black and white and we didn't have television then, you know, we had to make our own entertainment, you were happy if your Triang Hornby offering wasn't too badly off the mark dimensionally so you could make something of it.  I recall the 'silver seal' Black 5 which is the same mould as the current Thomas Railroad 'Henry', complete with skirts under the boiler and not much in the way of detail below the footplate, being very well reviewed in the model press at the time, moulded handrails, overscale pressed valve gear and all!  We knew our place, peasants that we were, and were grateful for anything our Lords and Masters provided for us.  Kids today, don't know they're born.  

 

Things have improved and will continue to do so, because that is what the market demands.  Things will also get more expensive because costs are increasing and the market will bear it.

 

In the 1990s there was a magazine called Scale Model Trains that was critical.

 

In one case it was heavily critical of Replica (which was one of the best makes back then), Replica and others never sent any more review samples. Eventually readers letters would ask "why don't you do reviews anymore?" with the reply "they only do reviews if they get examples". I think sales fell after that and the magazine got merged into another mag (or rather the other mag took over their readership).

 

These days, almost all models are perhaps more detailed than the eyes can see (though the camera and HD video can). I agree the use of words to convey the models spec is important so that a) the manufacture gets a fair hearing for its investment and efforts while b) potential buyers of the product know what to expect. So while "Entry level" will not interest me, it will please others of course.

 

That said, there can be incoherence's and missed items. The first (late nose) run of Heljan's 23 had an "incorrect nose shape and side widows in the wrong place". The later early nose run "now has correct nose shape and side windows in the right place". I have both and there is absolutely no difference in the nose shapes between them, though the second model did have the side windows in the right place.

 

Agree, many (though not all) online videos are by people who do not seem to know the subject, some spending far too long telling us about the box (like 2/3rds of the video). That said, some do show excellent closes ups of the detail whereby even if they don't know the subject, you can still answer certain questions. 

[melmerby]

Some things I'd like reviews to state are the maximum and minimum speeds in both DC and DCC, and the drawbar force, together with the number of coaches and/or wagons the locomotive will pull on a level test track with radius 2 curves. (Model Railroader does this for the locomotives it reviews.) 

With DCC you are reliant on the make of the decoder and how well it has been set up.

Some are notoriously deficient in such things as smooth starting & consistent speed increase with throttle setting.

 

As regards load: which coaches, which wagons? The drag varies tremendously from model to model.

 

Keith

Edited February 14, 2017 by melmerby

[JSpencer]

Some things I'd like reviews to state are the maximum and minimum speeds in both DC and DCC, and the drawbar force, together with the number of coaches and/or wagons the locomotive will pull on a level test track with radius 2 curves. (Model Railroader does this for the locomotives it reviews.) 

 

For minimum speeds these days, all locos are pretty much smooth starters, capable of dead slow running. Sometimes this only happens after many hours of running in though. Of course if it runs off like a scalded cat, I expect the mag to say so.

 

Top end speed needs to be at least realistic for the job the loco would be expected to do. I do find some magazines will comment if the model does not quite make it but zero comment if they do make it.

 

Drawbar force... hmmm, how many of the readership will understand "... we observed 2.1 Newtons force at the drawbar..." ? And how many can convert that into the train it will potentially pull? Also do you measure that with flat out speed were it will be higher than dead slow?

I remember one magazine was, until quite recently, using Hornby Dublo super detailed coaches as a measure. Fine for 1960s, but hardly anyone was running these by the 1990s let alone 2000s. This loco can pull 4 (antiquated) Dublo coaches did not mean anything to me.

A measurement needs to be something that is easy to relate to. For example a common coach type like the Bachmann and Hornby Mk 1s (they could do the measurement twice once for each so we get the gist for a heavy super detailed coach verses a lighter non detailed one) or for a freight engine, the typical 6 plank coal wagon (mix of all makes).

 

What I would like to hear about is how it copes with changes of incline. Most models are developed and tested now on perfectly flat track, our layouts are often anything but!

Edited February 14, 2017 by JSpencer

[adb968008]

For minimum speeds these days, all locos are pretty much smooth starters, capable of dead slow running. Sometimes this only happens after many hours of running in though. Of course if it runs off like a scalded cat, I expect the mag to say so.

 

Top end speed needs to be at least realistic for the job the loco would be expected to do. I do find some magazines will comment if the model does not quite make it but zero comment if they do make it.

 

Drawbar force... hmmm, how many of the readership will understand "... we observed 2.1 Newtons force at the drawbar..." ? And how many can convert that into the train it will potentially pull? Also do you measure that with flat out speed were it will be higher than dead slow?

I remember one magazine was, until quite recently, using Hornby Dublo super detailed coaches as a measure. Fine for 1960s, but hardly anyone was running these by the 1990s let alone 2000s. This loco can pull 4 (antiquated) Dublo coaches did not mean anything to me.

A measurement needs to be something that is easy to relate to. For example a common coach type like the Bachmann and Hornby Mk 1s (they could do the measurement twice once for each so we get the gist for a heavy super detailed coach verses a lighter non detailed one) or for a freight engine, the typical 6 plank coal wagon (mix of all makes).

 

What I would like to hear about is how it copes with changes of incline. Most models are developed and tested now on perfectly flat track, our layouts are often anything but!

I am doing exactly this at the moment, I've done around 100 locos to date and typed them up and at some point will create a thread.

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/80959-roco-2014-catalogue-s160-in-h0/?p=2607974

FWIW I did some comparisons on the 4 class 08's on the market.

 

Bachmann 237g weight, 0.08a to power up, 0.1a max draw with a drawbar pull of 50g

Hornby 231g weight, 0.08a to power up, 0.22a max draw with a drawbar pull of 56g

Roco 186g weight, 0.1a to power up, 0.22a max draw with a drawbar pull of 50g

Railroad (H) 146g weight, 0.1a to power up, 0.22a max draw with a drawbar pull of 22g

 

relative weight to draw bar pull Roco is the strongest, the most energy efficient goes to Bachmann, but the grunt award goes to Hornby.

It's worth considering at the time of creation, the Roco 08 would be on the same shelves as the old Hornby x04 class 08, Lima 09 & Wrenn 08...

 

Only the Railroad 08 chassis has traction tyres, but clearly doesnt benefit from it.

 

I found in general coaches weigh in the 140-160g range and have a rolling resistance pull of approx 4g, which doubles to 8g on a curve (max 3 coaches sit on a 90 degree curve on 3rd radius track at one time ) and approx 2-4g additional resistance per 1% gradient per coach sitting on that gradient, the latter isn't fully tested yet.

 

Ive done this study on 100 locos so far, Roco wins the award for drawbar pull, US models take the award for energy consumption and am in process of validating weight loads of my findings against actual loads on my layout, taking into account factors like curves, gradient and resistance of rolling stock wheels, which vary wildly !!

Edited February 14, 2017 by adb968008

[Robin Brasher]

'Winston Churchill and Bulleid Pacifics' published by Friends of the National Railway Museum contains a lot of pictures of Merchant Navy Pacifics. On page 79 there are two colour photographs of the smaller light Pacifics by different photographers. These are post war pictures of them in malachite green livery. They both seem to have a gloss finish and the shade of green looks darker than the Hornby models of the Merchant Navy Pacifics which are as built in a matt finish.

 

My favourite livery for the Merchant Navy Pacifics is BR blue. There is an excellent photograph by S C Townroe of 'East Asiatic Company' leaving Waterloo on page 59 and some paintings by Malcolm Root on pages 1 and 103 all showing the engines in blue livery. The blue livery did not wear well as can be seen in a couple of pictures of 'Royal Mail' on pages 59 and 62 but neither did the matt finish of malachite green.

[7013]

I have long since disregarded magazine reviews of locos, they have their use to check detail in the photos, what type of connections they have, DCC fitting etc. However they are usually far from objective. Although that said the recent Heljan '1366' was mildly rebuked in Hornby Magazine for having a chassis tightened up so much that the circuit board for DCC burnt out, and they almost raised an eyebrow about the RRP of £170 (you could by almost three J50s for that).The end result of all these magazine reviews usually states 'Would we recommend that you buy one? You bet we would' And that applied to some of the woeful 2-8-0/2T Hornby design clever offerings.

However this is a Merchant Navy thread and regardless of how the Magazine got their samples first it looks as if it will be worth the wait, which from announcement to production has not been too long. I must confess I do get fed up with waiting for locos to appear and often cancel pre orders and use the money set aside to buy something else, i am one of those quaint people who actually saves to buy locos these days because being a pensioner i am on a budget, although if you listen to the BBC we are rolling in money, £20 a week or one Bachmann wagon better off than young folk.

Incidently on a serious note could someone let me know what Southern region coaches would be appropriate for 'Channel Packet' which is in Southern guise 

Edited February 16, 2017 by 7013