JSpencer Posted April 8, 2017 Share Posted April 8, 2017 I am not usually one who identifies errors in models but (unless I have missed something in the past 57 pages of discussion) has anyone else noticed that the tender for 21C3 is wrong? Looking very closely at this wonderful model today (now that the initial wow factor has worn off a bit - but only a bit!) and comparing it with the notes on pages 75 to 79 of the Irwell Book of the Merchant Navy Pacifics, the tender should not have the high back, as only the first two had that at build. It is correct, of course, that there are footsteps and no ladders as built, but the back is wrong for all of the first batch (= up to 21C10) except 21C1 and 21C2. For those like me looking at renumbering, yet trying to keep some degree of historical correctness (leaving aside the black/malachite issue before the front end was modified), note also that from 21C4 onwards, ladders were fitted. Just a thought! Interesting, however in Fry's Bestist Bullied Book (Bullied Power), it says something else. The first 3 tenders were the same, no ladders and only footholds and all of the first batch had 2 foot high raves on the rear which were cut down to 4 inches in 1944 (by which time, all had ladders too. So some difference there. I wonder how Hornby designed the tooling. If designed well so that parts like cabs, fronts, sides and roofs can be swapped around, then - loco wise - Hornby could do any member at any time in its life with certain front and smoke defector versions being exempt. However Tender wise, they currently seem to have only a batch 1 tender suitable for the first three (or two) locos in 1941 and 1942 only and a tender only for batch 3 (then in green or grey only). It would be nice in a Hornby engine shed could shed light on the possibilities they can do for this class so that we don't end up waiting for members that tooling is not designed to cater for. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted April 8, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 8, 2017 (edited) Interesting, however in Fry's Bestist Bullied Book (Bullied Power), it says something else. The first 3 tenders were the same, no ladders and only footholds and all of the first batch had 2 foot high raves on the rear which were cut down to 4 inches in 1944 (by which time, all had ladders too. So some difference there. I wonder how Hornby designed the tooling. If designed well so that parts like cabs, fronts, sides and roofs can be swapped around, then - loco wise - Hornby could do any member at any time in its life with certain front and smoke defector versions being exempt. However Tender wise, they currently seem to have only a batch 1 tender suitable for the first three (or two) locos in 1941 and 1942 only and a tender only for batch 3 (then in green or grey only). It would be nice in a Hornby engine shed could shed light on the possibilities they can do for this class so that we don't end up waiting for members that tooling is not designed to cater for. As mentioned and illustrated in earlier posts, the cut-down tenders used with Hornby's rebuilt MNs are appropriate for a couple that ran with them for varying periods towards the end of their air-smoothed existence. The two locos in question being: 35011 General Steam Navigation (5100g. tender modified 8/57, loco to works for rebuilding, 5/59). 35021 New Zealand Line (6000g. tender modified 2/56 2/52, loco to works for rebuilding, 4/59). There are a selection of other 3rd batch locos that will match the high-sided tender that will come with Clan Line, other variations permitting. The extra tender that would really open up some opportunities would be the cut-down 5000g. type which would permit a later iteration of Channel Packet (tender modified 6/56, loco to works for rebuilding, 5/59) as well as providing a springboard for a spruced-up rebuilt in lots of previously unreleased identities, including (yet again) Channel Packet. [Dates quoted from The Book of the Merchant Navy Pacifics, 2nd edition] . John Edited to correct info re: 35021 Edited April 8, 2017 by Dunsignalling 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold RFS Posted April 8, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 8, 2017 (edited) 35021 New Zealand Line (6000g. tender modified 2/56, loco to works for rebuilding, 4/59). 35021's tender was modified much earlier - February 1952. I can't lay my hands on it at the moment, but I have seen a picture of it on the Devon Belle with its modified tender. The Devon Belle ceased operation at the end of the 1954 timetable. EDIT: "Power of the Merchant Navies" (Gavin Morrison) has a picture of 35021 with its modified tender at Wilton during the engine change for the Devon Belle, dated August 1952. Edited April 8, 2017 by RFS Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium John M Upton Posted April 8, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 8, 2017 Facebook post by Hornby indicating the BR versions are imminent with pre orders shipping soon. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted April 8, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 8, 2017 (edited) 35021's tender was modified much earlier - February 1952. I can't lay my hands on it at the moment, but I have seen a picture of it on the Devon Belle with its modified tender. The Devon Belle ceased operation at the end of the 1954 timetable. EDIT: "Power of the Merchant Navies" (Gavin Morrison) has a picture of 35021 with its modified tender at Wilton during the engine change for the Devon Belle, dated August 1952. You are quite correct. Will amend my post asap. That presumably coincided with the same thing being done to the tenders of 34011 / 34043 /34065. Over seven years in (evidently) the same condition has to be a record for a MN and surely has to make 35021 a prime target for Hornby to release. John Edited April 8, 2017 by Dunsignalling Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold toboldlygo Posted April 8, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 8, 2017 Interesting, however in Fry's Bestist Bullied Book (Bullied Power), it says something else. The first 3 tenders were the same, no ladders and only footholds and all of the first batch had 2 foot high raves on the rear which were cut down to 4 inches in 1944 (by which time, all had ladders too. So some difference there. I wonder how Hornby designed the tooling. If designed well so that parts like cabs, fronts, sides and roofs can be swapped around, then - loco wise - Hornby could do any member at any time in its life with certain front and smoke defector versions being exempt. However Tender wise, they currently seem to have only a batch 1 tender suitable for the first three (or two) locos in 1941 and 1942 only and a tender only for batch 3 (then in green or grey only). It would be nice in a Hornby engine shed could shed light on the possibilities they can do for this class so that we don't end up waiting for members that tooling is not designed to cater for. Having had a good look at how the tender and loco bodies are assembled, I would say the tooling is designed to cater for most variations. Should also be pointed out the Royal Mail's tender at some point during the war had the vac tanks repaired/modified and their layout altered to a pyramid shape. The tender then ended up behind Cunard White Star. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSpencer Posted April 8, 2017 Share Posted April 8, 2017 As mentioned and illustrated in earlier posts, the cut-down tenders used with Hornby's rebuilt MNs are appropriate for a couple that ran with them for varying periods towards the end of their air-smoothed existence. The two locos in question being: 35011 General Steam Navigation (5100g. tender modified 8/57, loco to works for rebuilding, 5/59). 35021 New Zealand Line (6000g. tender modified 2/56 2/52, loco to works for rebuilding, 4/59). There are a selection of other 3rd batch locos that will match the high-sided tender that will come with Clan Line, other variations permitting. The extra tender that would really open up some opportunities would be the cut-down 5000g. type which would permit a later iteration of Channel Packet (tender modified 6/56, loco to works for rebuilding, 5/59) as well as providing a springboard for a spruced-up rebuilt in lots of previously unreleased identities, including (yet again) Channel Packet. [Dates quoted from The Book of the Merchant Navy Pacifics, 2nd edition] . John Edited to correct info re: 35021 Although I do not disagree with that, I already have the 5100g and 6000g cut down tenders with the rebuilds, so for me personally, I am looking for locos which have detailed differences to anything else I own. For example a batch 2 loco with original batch 2 tender will be something different containing at least one element not modelled in RTR before. To date I have only brought one light pacific in rebuilt form because either I had the tenders on original other light pacifics and there are no variants as far as the loco goes. I will get a second at some point but that will doubtless be in a "nothing else for me" year. The original light pacifics have had so far in terms of options, 4 tenders, 2 cabs, 3 smoke deflectors, original and re sighted valves, original and later fairing around the chimneys, consequently I have 4. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold toboldlygo Posted April 8, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 8, 2017 (edited) Although I do not disagree with that, I already have the 5100g and 6000g cut down tenders with the rebuilds, so for me personally, I am looking for locos which have detailed differences to anything else I own. For example a batch 2 loco with original batch 2 tender will be something different containing at least one element not modelled in RTR before. To date I have only brought one light pacific in rebuilt form because either I had the tenders on original other light pacifics and there are no variants as far as the loco goes. I will get a second at some point but that will doubtless be in a "nothing else for me" year. The original light pacifics have had so far in terms of options, 4 tenders, 2 cabs, 3 smoke deflectors, original and re sighted valves, original and later fairing around the chimneys, consequently I have 4. As the cut-down 6,000gl tender is the oldest moulding of tender top in Bulleid arsenal - it's time for an updated version, hopefully it will appear in due course (Isley if you're a reading - hint, hint) I think you need to spend some time with our friends - only 4 Air Smoothed Light Pacifics.. tsk, tsk Edited April 8, 2017 by toboldlygo Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSpencer Posted April 8, 2017 Share Posted April 8, 2017 As the cut-down 6,000gl tender is the oldest moulding of tender top in Bulleid arsenal - it's time for an updated version, hopefully it will appear in due course (Isley if you're a reading - hint, hint) I think you need to spend some time with our friends - only 4 Air Smoothed Light Pacifics.. tsk, tsk Sorry 5, I forget Winston Churchill. The number is actually 8 if I count the wrenn and ex-Triang tooling ones but these are generally retired, due for selling off... 5 is more than suffice for my layout which can hold 22 locos. I see no point in trying to collect every member of a class! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold toboldlygo Posted April 8, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 8, 2017 Sorry 5, I forget Winston Churchill. The number is actually 8 if I count the wrenn and ex-Triang tooling ones but these are generally retired, due for selling off... 5 is more than suffice for my layout which can hold 22 locos. I see no point in trying to collect every member of a class! Build a bigger a layout, before the Men in Malachite come knocking at your door... they will insist you have every member of one of the Bulleid designed classes Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSpencer Posted April 8, 2017 Share Posted April 8, 2017 (edited) Build a bigger a layout, before the Men in Malachite come knocking at your door... they will insist you have every member of one of the Bulleid designed classes Fortunately trains are not my only hobby as I also do WWII reconstitutions (that is me behind a Bren in the thumbnail pic on the left), and medieval sword fighting. They had better be armed.... Edited April 8, 2017 by JSpencer Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted April 8, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 8, 2017 (edited) Although I do not disagree with that, I already have the 5100g and 6000g cut down tenders with the rebuilds, so for me personally, I am looking for locos which have detailed differences to anything else I own. For example a batch 2 loco with original batch 2 tender will be something different containing at least one element not modelled in RTR before. To date I have only brought one light pacific in rebuilt form because either I had the tenders on original other light pacifics and there are no variants as far as the loco goes. I will get a second at some point but that will doubtless be in a "nothing else for me" year. The original light pacifics have had so far in terms of options, 4 tenders, 2 cabs, 3 smoke deflectors, original and re sighted valves, original and later fairing around the chimneys, consequently I have 4. What you evidently require is 35024 East Asiatic Company and the coal weighing tender, with which it was paired before and after rebuilding. John Which reminds me, I have a kit for that and an Ellerman Lines with a tender that's only right if I cut holes in the loco but could be switched to the air-smoothed Clan Line to make it a candidate to become 35021.......... Edited April 8, 2017 by Dunsignalling 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold toboldlygo Posted April 8, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 8, 2017 Fortunately trains are not my only hobby as I also do WWII reconstitutions (that is me behind a Bren in the thumbnail pic on the left), and medieval sword fighting. They had better be armed.... Does a squadron of A-10 Thunderbolts with depleted uranium shells count? Not to mention several units of ex special forces troops, cruise missiles, UAV's and number of Challenger II tanks.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spannerman Posted April 8, 2017 Share Posted April 8, 2017 And don't the A-10's and challengers look great in malachite with yellow lining! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Decorum Posted April 9, 2017 Share Posted April 9, 2017 And don't the A-10's and challengers look great in malachite with yellow lining! Funny you should say that. Ford (I think) has taken to knocking out brown cars. I hear lots of comments that they are yucky but I can’t help wishing that they had yellow lining in imitation of pre-grouping E4s. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSpencer Posted April 9, 2017 Share Posted April 9, 2017 Does a squadron of A-10 Thunderbolts with depleted uranium shells count? Not to mention several units of ex special forces troops, cruise missiles, UAV's and number of Challenger II tanks.... Do not underestimate the power of the force... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold toboldlygo Posted April 9, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 9, 2017 Do not underestimate the power of the force... You'll find the pull of the Green-side of the Force is far stronger than the light or dark-side Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattingleycustom Posted April 9, 2017 Share Posted April 9, 2017 Despite the excitement about Hornby's Merchant Navy Pacific locomotives there are still more than 10 models of 'Royal Mail' left at Hattons and Rails at least one of each at my nearest model shop at Poole. I wonder if people are waiting for 'Clan Line' and Hornby's next batch. Hornby have gained an extra Royal Mail - my one refused to work, so has gone back to Margate for attention ... I wonder if I will see it again before the summer? Not so malachite Glenn Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSpencer Posted April 9, 2017 Share Posted April 9, 2017 You'll find the pull of the Green-side of the Force is far stronger than the light or dark-side Ah, but they were beaten by Brunswick after their Leader repeatly let them down.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold toboldlygo Posted April 9, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 9, 2017 (edited) Ah, but they were beaten by Brunswick after their Leader repeatly let them down....But I didn't specify which Green-side of the force... ....And the Leader was the Grey-side Edited April 9, 2017 by toboldlygo Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Turpin Posted April 9, 2017 Share Posted April 9, 2017 But I didn't specify which Green-side of the force... ....And the Leader was the Grey-side Ahem, the Leader was cloud cuckoo land side... AND, the Force most definitely was not with it! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold toboldlygo Posted April 9, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 9, 2017 Hornby have gained an extra Royal Mail - my one refused to work, so has gone back to Margate for attention ... I wonder if I will see it again before the summer? Not so malachite Glenn Well if it's gone to Margate, it won't be seen again - considering the big H are now based at Sandwich Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Blobrick Posted April 9, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 9, 2017 Gents, can any one help? I have been working my way through this thread, in an effort to find if the forth coming release of R3382TTS "Holland Africa Line" is in a suitable modified condition for the 1954-56 period. I ve noted that some members are hoping for another release of these locos in a "later condition". I am assuming this "Later condition" is before being finally rebuilt? Bob C Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SRman Posted April 9, 2017 Share Posted April 9, 2017 Gents, can any one help? I have been working my way through this thread, in an effort to find if the forth coming release of R3382TTS "Holland Africa Line" is in a suitable modified condition for the 1954-56 period. I ve noted that some members are hoping for another release of these locos in a "later condition". I am assuming this "Later condition" is before being finally rebuilt? Bob C Possibly related to the lack of definitive information/pictures of the model: will it have fairings in front of the cylinders (removed from approx. 1951/2 onwards), or safety valves positioned forward or behind the dome? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ed 66 plant Posted April 10, 2017 Share Posted April 10, 2017 Hi Bob-- my understanding is-- 35023 ran with a 6000 gall. high sided from new until rebuilt 16.2 57 B.R green from 23 .3 52 Early emblem from new until well beyond rebuilding(11.62) New style cab from new,11-48 Cyl val.removed 5-53 Safety valves resited 10.54 Fluted con rods from new to 12.55 Therefore the model would appear to represent the loco as running from 5.53 to 10.54 regards, Ed 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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