Hornby Merchant Navy announced (formerly Facebook leak)

[GreenGiraffe22]

I seem to recall someone mentioning a photo they'd seen of one with a rake of all SR wagons, presumably for promo?

 

Something like this perhaps? Unfortunately there aren't many places on my layout to take a photo of a whole train without loads of the room in the back ground.

 

 

[Spannerman]

Fantastic, 21C1 and 21C3 arrived from Rails today honouring the pre-order price of £134.50 each.

Superb models which even my wife were impressed with.

Congratulations to Hornby on such a fantastic production.

 

Nik

[Cor-onGRT4]

Anyone knows if there's  is a flanged pony wheel in the box as most of the locomotives with fixed pony.

There are some unboxing movies on you tube but didn't see it

Edited March 18, 2017 by Cor-onGRT4

[GreenGiraffe22]

Anyone knows if there's  is a flanged pony wheel in the box as most of the locomotives with fixed pony.

There are some unboxing movies on you tube but didn't see it

 

No there isn't. Why have they fixed the bogie in place? It looks so ridiculous going around curves with the cab wheels hanging off the edge of the track :') 

[Dunsignalling]

No there isn't. Why have they fixed the bogie in place? It looks so ridiculous going around curves with the cab wheels hanging off the edge of the track :') 

All (new) large Hornby tender locos with trailing trucks have been like this for several years. Compared with the previous floppy trucks and loads of non-prototypical daylight under the loco, it's by far the lesser of two evils IMHO. 

 

I am a bit surprised they aren't including a flanged wheelset, though. 

 

If you do get/fit one, bear in mind that the loco will require minimum curves in the region of 3' radius.

 

John

Edited March 18, 2017 by Dunsignalling

[GreenGiraffe22]

All large Hornby tender locos with trailing trucks have been like this for several years. Compared with the previous floppy trucks and loads of non-prototypical daylight under the loco, it's by far the lesser of two evils IMHO. 

 

I am a bit surprised they aren't including a flanged wheelset, though. 

 

If you do get/fit one, bear in mind that the loco will require minimum curves in the region of 3' radius.

 

John

 

Ah I see, yeah the Merchant Navy , like my T9, only makes it around my layout on the outer most route of the outer loop, all the other curves on the layout make it catapult off the track, and that's with the tender loosely coupled. I can not wait till me and my partner move into our own place and I have the space for a layout with only radius 4s. :')

 

And this is the first large tender loco I've had since I received Mallard for Christmas in about 2002? haha :')

[MikeParkin65]

No there isn't. Why have they fixed the bogie in place? It looks so ridiculous going around curves with the cab wheels hanging off the edge of the track :') 

An alternative to fitting a flanged wheel is to see how close you can couple the tender - this allows it to 'steer' the loco keeping the cab more in line. It would be helpful if Hornby could fit adjustable drawbars rather than the stark 2 foot gap or virtually touching that come with the Britannia, Clan and Duke. That said its easy enough to experiment with a plastic replacement and then use that as a template for something more solid.

[GreenGiraffe22]

An alternative to fitting a flanged wheel is to see how close you can couple the tender - this allows it to 'steer' the loco keeping the cab more in line. It would be helpful if Hornby could fit adjustable drawbars rather than the stark 2 foot gap or virtually touching that come with the Britannia, Clan and Duke. That said its easy enough to experiment with a plastic replacement and then use that as a template for something more solid.

 

I tried the close couple option,  visually it looked so much better, but in motion it did not end well... 

[John M Upton]

Remember any replacement flanged wheel will need to be a BFB type...

[Cor-onGRT4]

Remember any replacement flanged wheel will need to be a BFB type...

Did some research on the internet, seems the M.N. class have 3'1" bogie wheels and 3'7" pony truck and tender wheels, B.o.B. and W.C. class loco's have 3'1' bogie, pony and tender wheels.

Hornby have none of these spares in stock,  Alan Gibson have Bulleid wheels both sizes Ultra scale has only the bogie wheel size.

Anyone else any suggestion?

BFB is that center bearing or something else?, not so familiar with english shorten words.

Thanks

[SRman]

Did some research on the internet, seems the M.N. class have 3'1" bogie wheels and 3'7" pony truck and tender wheels, B.o.B. and W.C. class loco's have 3'1' bogie, pony and tender wheels.

Hornby have none of these spares in stock,  Alan Gibson have Bulleid wheels both sizes Ultra scale has only the bogie wheel size.

Anyone else any suggestion?

BFB is that center bearing or something else?, not so familiar with english shorten words.

Thanks

 

Bulleid-Firth-Brown: it refers to the cast wheel pattern. Bulleid locos use BFB wheels throughout, rather than the more usual spoked pattern.

[Ian Hargrave]

Bulleid-Firth-Brown: it refers to the cast wheel pattern. Bulleid locos use BFB wheels throughout, rather than the more usual spoked pattern.

Firth Brown being the name of the Sheffield steel makers who manufactured them.I believe their origin was the USA BoxPok design which was also used in the 1960's by the DR ( East German) in their rebuilt O1/5 at the famous Meiningen works.

[Dunsignalling]

Did some research on the internet, seems the M.N. class have 3'1" bogie wheels and 3'7" pony truck and tender wheels, B.o.B. and W.C. class loco's have 3'1' bogie, pony and tender wheels.

Hornby have none of these spares in stock,  Alan Gibson have Bulleid wheels both sizes Ultra scale has only the bogie wheel size.

Anyone else any suggestion?

BFB is that center bearing or something else?, not so familiar with english shorten words.

Thanks

The late Albert Goodall used to do cast whitemetal BFB inserts to fit 14mm Romford coach wheels. Now made by RT Models. 

 

John

[bigherb]

 

Hornby have none of these spares in stock,  Alan Gibson have Bulleid wheels both sizes Ultra scale has only the bogie wheel size.

Anyone else any suggestion?

Markits do the 13mm and 14mm BFB wheels.

[leavesontheline]

No there isn't. Why have they fixed the bogie in place? It looks so ridiculous going around curves with the cab wheels hanging off the edge of the track :') 

 

 

All (new) large Hornby tender locos with trailing trucks have been like this for several years. Compared with the previous floppy trucks and loads of non-prototypical daylight under the loco, it's by far the lesser of two evils IMHO. 

 

I am a bit surprised they aren't including a flanged wheelset, though. 

 

If you do get/fit one, bear in mind that the loco will require minimum curves in the region of 3' radius.

 

John

 

Agree with Dunsignalling and others above. Its always going to be a compromise - the model manufacturer either makes an 'as realistic as possible looking' model but that will only travel around trainset/setrack tight radius curves minus the flanges on the pony truck wheels OR they compromise slightly on the accuracy and detail under the cab and allow for a moving pony truck and flanged wheels. They have to try and please everyone from a child who just wants to play trains without his model derailing every few moments to an out and out collector who just wants to display his model in a cabinet, never to turn a wheel.  

 

I recall when Hornby bought out the rebuilt BoB's and WC's and the fixed pony truck being a point for discussion, particularly when the similar but slightly earlier (model-wise) MN had a moving pony truck, as did the also slightly earlier (I think I am correct in saying, again model-wise) rebuilt BoB's and WC's. 

 

I personally don't mind either solution. If I am running a fixed pony truck model with flangeless wheels around tight curves then the fact that these wheels overhang slightly is going to be the least of my worries in terms of overall 'accuracy' as the tight radius of the curve itself looks so wrong to me anyway! This overhang is much less noticeable on more realistic curves. Obviously we don't all have space for completely realistic scale curves but there is a happy compromise in the middle there somewhere between 'setrack' radius 3 or 4 and even the tightest prototype curve, where these fixed pony trucks and flangeless wheels just won't be noticeable.

 

On the other hand, do I really notice the loss of detail on my moving pony truck models? Probably not! At least not at normal viewing distances and angles. I took a few photos (below) of two moving pony truck models (Original BoB 34081 and Rebuilt MN 35011) and two fixed pony truck/flangeless models (Original MN 21C1 and Rebuilt WC 34013) and at track-level, with a white background, you can see the slight loss of detail and 'daylight' visible. To be honest though this is even less noticeable on the other side where all the pipework is situated, even when viewing from track level, and who views their models at track level with a bright background?!

 

So for me, running around slightly more realistic curves, both models look equally good. I also agree with others that it is slightly odd that Hornby didn't include the flanged wheelset with the new MN's as they do with the recent (and older) rebuilt BoB's and WC's. The wheelset in the photo below is from recent-ish release Okehampton 34013. Hornby also include the flanged pony truck wheels with the Britannia's. Maybe they decided no-one fitted them anyway so didn't include them with the new MN's? Maybe it is just a cost-saving? I haven't investigated myself but maybe the construction of the new MN makes it difficult to change the pony truck wheelset?

 

[GreenGiraffe22]

A question I've been pondering, both the Merchant Navy, and similar classes in Southern livery are described as being in malachite green, but the Maunsell carriages are also described as being in malachite green but look almost turquoise by comparison, what's the deal there? Was malachite a broad term for several different shades?

 

Edit :I just Googled 'malachite' to discover it is a green mineral that appears in many shades, I guess that might explain it?

Edited March 19, 2017 by GreenGiraffe22

[Ian Hargrave]

A question I've been pondering, both the Merchant Navy, and similar classes in Southern livery are described as being in malachite green, but the Maunsell carriages are also described as being in malachite green but look almost turquoise by comparison, what's the deal there? Was malachite a broad term for several different shades?

Good question. If you get to handle a chunk of malachite,you will see that it does tend towards what you or I would define as turquoise.We will never know the definitive colour.Come to think of it,I imagine neither Bulleid nor the Southern Railway board knew the answer either. I suspect their excellent publicity team....for it was such.....cooked this one up,together with "sunshine" which in the 30's was synonymous with the Sunny South and the company milked that for all it was worth.Look at their posters for a clue.

[GreenGiraffe22]

Look at their posters for a clue.

I noticed in one poster that the Merchant Navy was the same colour as its carriages, but of course it was just art wouldn't it be great if we could get those people who colourise old photos, particularly wartime photos, to do some train photos.

[Jack P]

A question I've been pondering, both the Merchant Navy, and similar classes in Southern livery are described as being in malachite green, but the Maunsell carriages are also described as being in malachite green but look almost turquoise by comparison, what's the deal there? Was malachite a broad term for several different shades?

 

Edit :I just Googled 'malachite' to discover it is a green mineral that appears in many shades, I guess that might explain it?

 

Also has to be said that the SR varnished their coaches quite heavily, so they would have appeared a far different shade to the engines. It is a shame that the SR Malachite green looks to be exactly the same as the BR/S green.

[SRman]

The shades of SR and BR(S) greens have long been debated. I think the general consensus has been that the greens did vary somewhat, for several reasons. 

1. The paint was mixed in batches at each set of workshops so it varied between locations.

2. The greens weathered and faded differently.

3. Locations also affected the weathering, with coastal units suffering more (e.g. St Leonards).

4. The SR and BR(S) habit of re-varnishing existing paint over the years rather than repainting.

5. Pre-war malachite green may have been lighter and bluer than post-war. there has been some debate about the shades used.

There may well be other factors I haven't mentioned.

The upshot is that the greens did vary. This can be demonstrated in various photos from the times, where the shades obviously differ within the same photo under the same lighting conditions. I have seen photos of the Atlantic Coast Express in BR days with several shades of green apparent along the length of the train. There are also several monochrome shots of Bulleid pacifics with 'borrowed' tenders from different locos where the shades are demonstrably different; in particular, some of the Merchant Navies in malachite green were equipped with B0B/WC tenders temporarily while their own tenders were still being built - the tenders showed up as being rather darker than the MNs themselves.

[Jack P]

in particular, some of the Merchant Navies in malachite green were equipped with B0B/WC tenders temporarily while their own tenders were still being built - the tenders showed up as being rather darker than the MNs themselves.

 

I'd love to see a photo of this!

[JSpencer]

I have a preference for an actual swinging pony when it existed on the prototype. This is not a gripe, just a preference.

 

Another preference would have been to have kept the sprung third driving axle like we had on the rebuilt. Again this is a preference, not a gripe. Weight distribution is to the rear of the loco rather than centered, this can cause the front drivers to lift slightly at the start of a decline.

 

Surprisingly (if my scales are not wrong), it seems that the new original MN and older rebuilt MN are the same weight (loco and tender included). Despite that, the new model seems to be stronger, maybe due to the bigger motor.

 

What is amazing though is that Hornby invested in tooling to do just the first member of the class as she was when she was first built representing a very brief period. A period which is rarely modelled. Not only is the loco tooling unique, but even the tender has features as first built and only useful for a short period (and possibly limited to just the first few members of the class).

Well done Hornby on taking such a risk.

Edited March 20, 2017 by JSpencer

[PrestburyJack]

Also has to be said that the SR varnished their coaches quite heavily, so they would have appeared a far different shade to the engines. It is a shame that the SR Malachite green looks to be exactly the same as the BR/S green.

 

This is the thing I take issue with - whilst the shades of Malachite and BR green would have varied due to weathering / varnishing / bleaching / ageing etc, and Malachite did get darker as it was varnished, I cannot accept that they would have been exactly the same, whereas the 2 shades Hornby use now are identical (as opposed to the Malachite Hornby used in the 1980s/1990s which was very different).

[trevor7598]

This is the thing I take issue with - whilst the shades of Malachite and BR green would have varied due to weathering / varnishing / bleaching / ageing etc, and Malachite did get darker as it was varnished, I cannot accept that they would have been exactly the same, whereas the 2 shades Hornby use now are identical (as opposed to the Malachite Hornby used in the 1980s/1990s which was very different).

 

I think there are some myths surrounding Malachite green.

I have seen quotes from post war articles, one goes on to call it ' a bright sickly green ' and another calls it ' a shock to the eyes,

after the wartime drab. And that was the intention, to brighten up the SR's image post war.

 

BR(S) green is neither bright and sickly, nor a shock to the eyes, so this suggests that malachite was something much brighter,

whether on a loco or on coaching stock..

[GreenGiraffe22]

So, just to clarify, am I right in thinking 'malachite' does not refer to a specific shade as such? And that the almost turquoise carriages with almost parrot green locos is correct?

 

Edit: I understand the Southern carriage varnishing etc, but I'm interested in the colours before all the varnishing

Edited March 20, 2017 by GreenGiraffe22