Hornby Merchant Navy announced (formerly Facebook leak)

[RFS]

Incidentally on a serious note could someone let me know what Southern region coaches would be appropriate for 'Channel Packet' which is in Southern guise 

 

Hornby Maunsells would be a good match.

Edited February 16, 2017 by RFS

[Dunsignalling]

Hornby Maunsells would be a good match.

Probably about the only match. 21C1 is modelled in 1941 condition, as running during its first few weeks in traffic. 

 

All Pullman cars were in store for the duration of the war and the first Bulleid coaches were five years in the future, by which time "Flannel Jacket" looked a lot different.

 

John

Edited February 16, 2017 by Dunsignalling

[Robin Brasher]

I have long since disregarded magazine reviews of locos, they have their use to check detail in the photos, what type of connections they have, DCC fitting etc. However they are usually far from objective. Although that said the recent Heljan '1366' was mildly rebuked in Hornby Magazine for having a chassis tightened up so much that the circuit board for DCC burnt out, and they almost raised an eyebrow about the RRP of £170 (you could by almost three J50s for that).The end result of all these magazine reviews usually states 'Would we recommend that you buy one? You bet we would' And that applied to some of the woeful 2-8-0/2T Hornby design clever offerings.

However this is a Merchant Navy thread and regardless of how the Magazine got their samples first it looks as if it will be worth the wait, which from announcement to production has not been too long. I must confess I do get fed up with waiting for locos to appear and often cancel pre orders and use the money set aside to buy something else, i am one of those quaint people who actually saves to buy locos these days because being a pensioner i am on a budget, although if you listen to the BBC we are rolling in money, £20 a week or one Bachmann wagon better off than young folk.

Incidently on a serious note could someone let me know what Southern region coaches would be appropriate for 'Channel Packet' which is in Southern guise

The model of 'Channel Packet' represents it as it was when it was built in 1941 and there were some minor changes to it after the war. I would recommend the malachite green Maunsell coaches R4734-7 to go with it although they are not in the current catalogue. On page 34 of the February 2017 Hornby magazine are pictures of the model hauling Pullman cars for the 'Bournemouth Belle' and the 'Devon Belle' which is not strictly accurate as the Pullmans were mothballed during the war. This is not going to stop me running them on my layout. There are some Railroad SR malachite green composite coaches numbers R4743-4 in the current catalogue but I don't think they are worth buying new and only worth buying second hand if you are on a very tight budget. The Merchant Navy class was also used for freight trains.

[Ian Hargrave]

I have long since disregarded magazine reviews of locos, they have their use to check detail in the photos, what type of connections they have, DCC fitting etc. However they are usually far from objective. Although that said the recent Heljan '1366' was mildly rebuked in Hornby Magazine for having a chassis tightened up so much that the circuit board for DCC burnt out, and they almost raised an eyebrow about the RRP of £170 (you could by almost three J50s for that).The end result of all these magazine reviews usually states 'Would we recommend that you buy one? You bet we would' And that applied to some of the woeful 2-8-0/2T Hornby design clever offerings.

However this is a Merchant Navy thread and regardless of how the Magazine got their samples first it looks as if it will be worth the wait, which from announcement to production has not been too long. I must confess I do get fed up with waiting for locos to appear and often cancel pre orders and use the money set aside to buy something else, i am one of those quaint people who actually saves to buy locos these days because being a pensioner i am on a budget, although if you listen to the BBC we are rolling in money, £20 a week or one Bachmann wagon better off than young folk.

Incidently on a serious note could someone let me know what Southern region coaches would be appropriate for 'Channel Packet' which is in Southern guise

 

This is not an easy r-t-r coaching stock match.The Hornby "malachite" divides opinion on its accuracy.One suggestion would be to source stock from the "Return From Dunkirk" sets,some of which will have been split from the pack (Kernow did this).As the era was WW2 you might consider mixing in stock from other rail companies...e.g. Hornby chocolate & cream GWR Colletts,LMS Stanier& teak LNER Gresleys.It was a time when almost anything was "in the wrong place".

[Dunsignalling]

The model of 'Channel Packet' represents it as it was when it was built in 1941 and there were some minor changes to it after the war. I would recommend the malachite green Maunsell coaches R4734-7 to go with it although they are not in the current catalogue. On page 34 of the February 2017 Hornby magazine are pictures of the model hauling Pullman cars for the 'Bournemouth Belle' and the 'Devon Belle' which is not strictly accurate as the Pullmans were mothballed during the war. This is not going to stop me running them on my layout. There are some Railroad SR malachite green composite coaches numbers R4743-4 in the current catalogue but I don't think they are worth buying new and only worth buying second hand if you are on a very tight budget. The Merchant Navy class was also used for freight trains.

Channel Packet underwent a lot of development work and had changed pretty dramatically by 1945. Minor modifications began almost immediately and, the dramatic "Widows Peak" gave way to a hooded casing and smoke deflectors within two years (and would be changed again as a "standard" specification emerged through later builds).

 

This particular model is really aimed at the Display Cabinet market and the Rule One mob. Modellers of the war years are accidental beneficiaries.

 

Those who want a Merchant Navy that can authentically run with a wider selection of stock might be better off getting Royal Mail.

EDIT: Just read Graham's post 937 below and it seems the model of 21C3 is in 1941-43 condition, too.

 

John

Edited February 16, 2017 by Dunsignalling

[Robin Brasher]

I am sorry that I did not scroll down after reading 7013's post 929 so I did not see the later comments until it was too late.

[olivegreen]

A very interesting discussion, this, on the early days of the MNs.  The Irwell Press book of the Merchant Navy Pacifics (no connection, just a happy customer and recommend it) is particularly illuminating - in all senses of the word - on the subject.  

 

It should not be forgotten that many of the locos, even if some were painted in malachite ex-works for, I suppose, photographs and publicity purposes despite the constraints of the war years, were quickly repainted black so those who seek authenticity should be aware of that. As has been said, there were also many changes to the first production batch (the first ten, the ones with the rounded ends to the skirts) -  to the front ends, especially in the early days, and to the cabs a little later.

 

As an example I wanted to produce 21C8 (Orient Line) with the original front end (what is called the widow's peak) and in green, using the Hornby Royal Mail as the starting point, but from the book discovered it is not possible since 21C8 was black ex-works and then suffered an accident, and was rebuilt with the later 'standard' smoke deflection apparatus: only then did it rejoice in malachite green paintwork.  Research is essential and enlightening but great fun.

 

With regard to 21C8 - I have Royal Mail on order but still wince at the thought of (possibly) spraying it black… !

Edited February 16, 2017 by olivegreen

[Graham_Muz]

Indeed in the condition as being released by Hornby neither 21c1 or 21c3 would have hauled either Pullman (due to wartime conditions) or Bullied coaches (pre-dating them)

 

As a reminder I detail the timescales and possible renumbering options from the first four releases here https://grahammuz.com/2016/12/10/talking-stock-35-original-merchant-navy-pacifics-Hornby-initial-variations-in-detail/

 

I also have some pictures of one of the advance production models of 21C3 here https://grahammuz.com/2017/02/15/a-little-update-hinton-parva-Hornby-merchant-navy-adams-radial-and-247-developments-h-class-plates/ and yes for convenience of her running on Hinton Parva layout at the time yes she is on a rake of a Pullmans, but then again everything else on the layout was set in and around 1958!

[JSpencer]

Probably about the only match. 21C1 is modelled in 1941 condition, as running during its first few weeks in traffic. 

 

All Pullman cars were in store for the duration of the war and the first Bulleid coaches were five years in the future, by which time "Flannel Jacket" looked a lot different.

 

John

You could of course just stick a rake of SR wagons behind them.

[GreenGiraffe22]

As someone who is modelling mid WW2 on the Southern Railway, manufacturers are spoiling me this year

[Robin Brasher]

You could of course just stick a rake of SR wagons behind them.

The only picture I have seen of Channel Packet in the early 1940s was hauling a rake of SR wagons. I cannot recall where I saw it.

[Dunsignalling]

The only picture I have seen of Channel Packet in the early 1940s was hauling a rake of SR wagons. I cannot recall where I saw it.

I think I've seen it too, but, if they were all SR wagons, it is almost certainly a publicity shot aimed at reinforcing Mr. Bulleid's somewhat dubious "Mixed Traffic" claims.

 

Such a formation would have been highly improbable in revenue-earning traffic.

 

The other railways owned so many common-user wagons that they often outnumbered SR wagons, even in trains working wholly within the company's heartland. 

 

John

Edited February 17, 2017 by Dunsignalling

[Coach bogie]

Indeed in the condition as being released by Hornby neither 21c1 or 21c3 would have hauled either Pullman (due to wartime conditions) or Bullied coaches (pre-dating them)

 

 

My 21C1 WILL be hauling Pullmans, having run onto my GWR based layout via Salisbury on a race special......then it is my trainset!!!!!

 

Mike Wiltshire

[Dunsignalling]

My 21C1 WILL be hauling Pullmans, having run onto my GWR based layout via Salisbury on a race special......then it is my trainset!!!!!

 

Mike Wiltshire

While a DeLorean patiently waits for it to clear the level crossing...............

 

Your Time Machine, your Laws of Physics; see Post #934, paragraph 2.

Edited February 17, 2017 by Dunsignalling

[Graham_Muz]

The only picture I have seen of Channel Packet in the early 1940s was hauling a rake of SR wagons. I cannot recall where I saw it.

 

Both 21C1 and 2 when first allocated to Salisbury were used on Eastleigh / West of England freight services to run in and check for teething troubles, further adding to the myth that they were ordered as mixed traffic to get round war time restrictions (the order for the build was placed in 1938 so before the war)  before being used on passenger services.

[Graham_Muz]

'Winston Churchill and Bulleid Pacifics' published by Friends of the National Railway Museum contains a lot of pictures of Merchant Navy Pacifics. On page 79 there are two colour photographs of the smaller light Pacifics by different photographers. These are post war pictures of them in malachite green livery. They both seem to have a gloss finish and the shade of green looks darker than the Hornby models of the Merchant Navy Pacifics which are as built in a matt finish.

 

My favourite livery for the Merchant Navy Pacifics is BR blue. There is an excellent photograph by S C Townroe of 'East Asiatic Company' leaving Waterloo on page 59 and some paintings by Malcolm Root on pages 1 and 103 all showing the engines in blue livery. The blue livery did not wear well as can be seen in a couple of pictures of 'Royal Mail' on pages 59 and 62 but neither did the matt finish of malachite green.

 

When first introduced in 1941 the malachite was a matt finish, as per the Hornby model, when 21c1, and some other members of the class,  regained malachite post war it was indeed more of a gloss finish (after 21C1 had also gained the front end modifications of cowl and short smoke deflectors).

[Godfrey Glyn]

The only picture I have seen of Channel Packet in the early 1940s was hauling a rake of SR wagons. I cannot recall where I saw it.

 

Robin, I think you saw it in Brian Haresnape's Bulleid Locomotives on page 21. Interestingly enough there is, on page 22, a b/w photo of 21C2 - Union Castle - taken at Merstham on the Brighton line in June 1941 with a four car special. It looks like two pullmans, sandwiched by two coaches that look like Maunsells - maybe narrow versions? I don't think its possible to tell what livery they are in except that my guess would be that the pullmans were in the same colour as the Maunsells. I am sure eagle eyed experts ( I am certainly not one) will be able to correctly identify them.

 

All the best

Godfrey

[chris45lsw]

Robin, I think you saw it in Brian Haresnape's Bulleid Locomotives on page 21. Interestingly enough there is, on page 22, a b/w photo of 21C2 - Union Castle - taken at Merstham on the Brighton line in June 1941 with a four car special. It looks like two pullmans, sandwiched by two coaches that look like Maunsells - maybe narrow versions? I don't think its possible to tell what livery they are in except that my guess would be that the pullmans were in the same colour as the Maunsells. I am sure eagle eyed experts ( I am certainly not one) will be able to correctly identify them.

 

All the best

Godfrey

The leading coach is a Maunsell Restriction 1 (8ft 6in wide) 'Non-descript' (ie un-classed) open brake to diagram 2654.  The rear one is harder to make out but I think it's a 'Continental', probably, a brake first either diagram 551 (R0, 8ft wide) or 552 (R1, 8ft 6in).

 

Chris Knowles-Thomas

[toboldlygo]

Indeed in the condition as being released by Hornby neither 21c1 or 21c3 would have hauled either Pullman (due to wartime conditions) or Bullied coaches (pre-dating them)

 

As a reminder I detail the timescales and possible renumbering options from the first four releases here https://grahammuz.com/2016/12/10/talking-stock-35-original-merchant-navy-pacifics-Hornby-initial-variations-in-detail/

 

I also have some pictures of one of the advance production models of 21C3 here https://grahammuz.com/2017/02/15/a-little-update-hinton-parva-Hornby-merchant-navy-adams-radial-and-247-developments-h-class-plates/ and yes for convenience of her running on Hinton Parva layout at the time yes she is on a rake of a Pullmans, but then again everything else on the layout was set in and around 1958!

I think the second photo of 21c3 needs the caption - I think the cleaner's have buffed a bit to hard!!!

[dibber25]

For minimum speeds these days, all locos are pretty much smooth starters, capable of dead slow running. Sometimes this only happens after many hours of running in though. Of course if it runs off like a scalded cat, I expect the mag to say so.

 

Top end speed needs to be at least realistic for the job the loco would be expected to do. I do find some magazines will comment if the model does not quite make it but zero comment if they do make it.

 

Drawbar force... hmmm, how many of the readership will understand "... we observed 2.1 Newtons force at the drawbar..." ? And how many can convert that into the train it will potentially pull? Also do you measure that with flat out speed were it will be higher than dead slow?

I remember one magazine was, until quite recently, using Hornby Dublo super detailed coaches as a measure. Fine for 1960s, but hardly anyone was running these by the 1990s let alone 2000s. This loco can pull 4 (antiquated) Dublo coaches did not mean anything to me.

A measurement needs to be something that is easy to relate to. For example a common coach type like the Bachmann and Hornby Mk 1s (they could do the measurement twice once for each so we get the gist for a heavy super detailed coach verses a lighter non detailed one) or for a freight engine, the typical 6 plank coal wagon (mix of all makes).

 

What I would like to hear about is how it copes with changes of incline. Most models are developed and tested now on perfectly flat track, our layouts are often anything but!

At Model Rail we use a mixed rake of Hornby and Bachmann coaches (or wagons for small locomotives). Our test track has second radius curves on the main circuit and a carefully contrived arrangement of points and crossings and reverse curves. We have two inclines, 1-in-30 and 1-in-60. I can't recall any of the four mainstream magazines using Hornby-Dublo coaches in recent years. There would have been issues with coupling them to tension-lock fitted locos. At Model Railway Constructor we dispensed with using a test train way back in the 1970s because of space issues. We used the drawbar pull method but it was not reliable and was largely meaningless to readers - who wanted to know how many coaches the loco would pull. I recall the worst performer was the old Mainline 4MT 4-6-0 which struggled to register anything at all on the drawbar pull. The best were heavy Fleischmann diesels with traction tyres - way better than any British products at the time. (CJL)

[Legend]

I think Railway Modeller refers to a train of Pullmans on one of its layouts when testing locos.

[No Decorum]

Both 21C1 and 2 when first allocated to Salisbury were used on Eastleigh / West of England freight services to run in and check for teething troubles, further adding to the myth that they were ordered as mixed traffic to get round war time restrictions (the order for the build was placed in 1938 so before the war)  before being used on passenger services.

Thank you for that – it makes excellent sense. It isn’t possible to get authority to build locomotives by claiming that they are mixed traffic by showing them already built pulling goods trains!

[trevor7598]

I don't like the look of those dangly wires, looks like the plug it in yourself variety.

Surely not !.

[Hilux5972]

Going by their recent locos, the plug will be pre-fitted and the drawbar will be the type that screws into both loco and tender. The Semi-permanent attached type. That's their usual approach these days.

[Ian Hargrave]

P1300455.JPGI don't like the look of those dangly wires, looks like the plug it in yourself variety.

Surely not !.

I do not believe for a moment there is any issue over that.Satan's plug is confined to the dustbin of history.Unless of course Dark Forces are at this very moment conspiring to resurrect it in a cunning plot .Spam(can) filters beware.