Hornby Merchant Navy announced (formerly Facebook leak)

[JSpencer]

Graham Muz has answered Spannerman's question but you may also like to look at the chapter headed "liveries" on page 139 of Bulleid Power published in 1990. He mentions that by July 1941 the Southern Railway decided that all locomotives except the 130 express locomotives of the "Lord Nelson", "King Arthur" and "Schools" classes should be painted unlined black.

 

There are some pictures of Blue Star on page 59, and Elders Fyffes on page 140 both in black with no lining in his book. According to page 141 21C11 - 21 were all initially painted in black without lining.

 

The book also mentions on page 139 that Channel Packet was originally painted in matt malachite green: it will be interesting to see if Hornby's version has a matt finish.

 

And you can pick up copies for less than a fiver too! I just ordered one. Many thanks on the tip as there are dozens of Bulleid books to choose from (BTW some of those call the original locos un-rebuilt as well, no wonder Hornby used it). The reviews on this show some pretty good research was done.

 

I'm about to order my 3rd Spam can after seeing the CADs and look forwards to see when they will do the forth with the safety valves re-sighted. (maybe with a 2nd batch tender and will give Clan Line a miss as I have her in the later guise).

 

About time I started that Crownline kit I've had sitting around for 20 years or so.

Edited August 23, 2016 by JSpencer

[Graham_Muz]

The livery at the top of the list for me! Followed by the Express Blue 

I would add that the experimental red stripe livery applied to 35024 never made it into the service and she left the works with white and black lining. I would be surprised if it became one the RTR livery options but is an obvious and fairly simple repaint for someone.

[Mallard60022]

I just hope the big Spam Can is released before Hornby go down the financial toilet pan.

 

I've done my bit: 35028 ordered!

 

Glenn

Why did you have to make me do the same Glenn...................................................................

Philth

[toboldlygo]

Why did you have to make me do the same Glenn...................................................................

Philth

Same here, thought I'd better get my pre-order in quickly - before Glenn and other's corner the market..

[Ceptic]

Returning to the subject of coach liveries in the 1940s this subject is considered on pages 38 and 39 of the first edition of HMRS Livery Register no 3 LSWR and Southern and on pages 25 to 27 of An Illustrated History of Southern Coaches.

 

A Maunsell set for the Bournemouth Limited had already been painted malachite green by July 1938.  According to page 38 of the Livery Register malachite green had become the general colour for coaches by 1940. On page 27 of An Illustrated History it says that over 10% of the carriage stock and most luggage vans still carried the Maunsell livery in 1948. Some of these would have Bulleid style lettering.

 

Many Southern corridor coaches ran in fixed sets so these should have the same livery.

 

Also covered by David Gould on pages 75 - 77 within the latest (1990) re-print of his book 'Maunsell's SR Steam Carriage Stock', published by Oakwood Press in 1978, 1981 & 1990. ISBN 0 85361 401 6.

[mattingleycustom]

And you can pick up copies for less than a fiver too! I just ordered one. Many thanks on the tip as there are dozens of Bulleid books to choose from (BTW some of those call the original locos un-rebuilt as well, no wonder Hornby used it). The reviews on this show some pretty good research was done.

 

I'm about to order my 3rd Spam can after seeing the CADs and look forwards to see when they will do the forth with the safety valves re-sighted. (maybe with a 2nd batch tender and will give Clan Line a miss as I have her in the later guise).

 

About time I started that Crownline kit I've had sitting around for 20 years or so.

 

Unrebuilt is a damned annoying and thoughtless term, what is wrong with 'original', or better still 'Merchant Navy'?, after all nine times out of ten the term is applied to a caption under a photo, where the average six-year-old could discern the difference between the original Bulleid creation and the Jarvis rebuild.

 

If a loco hasn't been rebuilt then 'unrebuilt' can be applied to practically any loco: 'Look and unrebuilt Castle/Black 5/B17/S15/etc'

 

I'll go and lie down.

 

Glenn ... and relax

[Horsetan]

I just hope the big Spam Can is released before Hornby go down the financial toilet pan.

 

You seem fairly certain that will happen. Will Paddy Power offer odds?

[melmerby]

 

 

If a loco hasn't been rebuilt then 'unrebuilt' can be applied to practically any loco: 'Look an unrebuilt Castle..........

I'll go and lie down.

 

Glenn ... and relax

You need to if the "rebuild" is like this

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/11/f0/11/11f011baf75a08c389353dd7584b2b3f.jpg

 

Keith

[mattingleycustom]

You need to if the "rebuild" is like this

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/11/f0/11/11f011baf75a08c389353dd7584b2b3f.jpg

 

Keith

 Ooh, nasty! Although not so much rebuilding as remoulding.

[toboldlygo]

You need to if the "rebuild" is like this

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/11/f0/11/11f011baf75a08c389353dd7584b2b3f.jpg

 

Keith

Looks like something rejected from the 'Ann Summer's catalogue...

[olivegreen]

Looks like something rejected from the 'Ann Summer's catalogue...

 

I bow to your better knowledge of these things!  

[The Blue Streak]

You need to if the "rebuild" is like this

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/11/f0/11/11f011baf75a08c389353dd7584b2b3f.jpg

 

Keith

 

Crikey Keith, I just clicked on that.  

We just can't "un-see" things.

I shall have to visit some kind of a witch doctor to get those images out of my head.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

I just hope the big Spam Can is released before Hornby go down the financial toilet pan.

You seem fairly certain that will happen. 

Well, it will - someday* - so that's just a healthily realistic attitude in my view.

 

*No matter how big a Wang you apparently sport, or your widely respected ancient and noble Baring, you can March into an Enron just like any old Arthur Andersen. (Business enterprises appear to have a half life characteristic analogous to that of radioactive decay. After N years half have gone, another half disappear in the next N year period and so on. Unless someone knows otherwise, I believe it is the Aberdeen Harbour Board which holds the record for a trading business, still going after 800 odd years.)

[SRman]

Well, it will - someday* - so that's just a healthily realistic attitude in my view.

 

*No matter how big a Wang you apparently sport, or your widely respected ancient and noble Baring, you can March into an Enron just like any old Arthur Andersen. (Business enterprises appear to have a half life characteristic analogous to that of radioactive decay. After N years half have gone, another half disappear in the next N year period and so on. Unless someone knows otherwise, I believe it is the Aberdeen Harbour Board which holds the record for a trading business, still going after 800 odd years.)

 

Rising sea levels may eventually put paid to the Aberdeen Harbour Board, once there's no harbour left to board!

[Mallard60022]

Crikey Keith, I just clicked on that.

We just can't "un-see" things.

I shall have to visit some kind of a witch doctor to get those images out of my head.

I can recommend a Quack (see what I did there?)

Ducky.

[Ian Hargrave]

I can recommend a Quack (see what I did there?)

Ducky.

The GWR's nod to the 1930's vogue for streamlining.It did not last long.As a miscarriage,it's up there with the best.....or should I say down there.Note the straight instead of curved GW nameplate,to be resurrected a decade or so later on Hawksworth's Counties.

 

We eagerly await Hornby's Limited Edition of both Castle and King in that form.....you wish.

[JSpencer]

The GWR's nod to the 1930's vogue for streamlining.It did not last long.As a miscarriage,it's up there with the best.....or should I say down there.Note the straight instead of curved GW nameplate,to be resurrected a decade or so later on Hawksworth's Counties.

 

We eagerly await Hornby's Limited Edition of both Castle and King in that form.....you wish.

 

While Gresley and Stanier leaped at the chance and designed locos around it, the GWR designers showed little enthusiasm and equally no understanding of aerodynamics - I can see an awful lot of flaws.

 

I am not sure what happened in the case of Bullied, choosing a very large blunt end with sides to impede airflow that was more likely to cost an additional 50HP at speed rather than reduce it. I am not surprised the drivers ended up with loads of smoke. Between the boiler burning lots of coal and the turbulence this front generated, it must have been a smoke screen.

Today we see a similar mess with so called environmentally friendly products. The one often seen being increasing the size of the package to eat more shelf space and then claiming it is from recycled material. You could still use less material dammit...

[toboldlygo]

I bow to your better knowledge of these things!  

 

The Quivering Castle didn't go down to well with the groups of ladies who tested it, they much preferred the Rampant Rabbit - it got them all steamed up   

[melmerby]

While Gresley and Stanier leaped at the chance and designed locos around it, the GWR designers showed little enthusiasm and equally no understanding of aerodynamics - I can see an awful lot of flaws.

 

The tale goes that when the PR men wanted a "streamliner" on the Western, Collett, who wasn't at all keen on the idea, picked up a model of (IIRC) a Castle and rubbed some Plasticine over it and told the works to produce it!

 

I thought the wedge cab was OK and the straight splashers not too bad, but the rest ............Arrrgggh!

 

Even the LNER and LMS attempts were less than useful in practice as the streamlining did little or nothing at normal operating speeds and impeded maintenance.

No doubt Bulleid's efforts fared no better.

 

Keith

[SRman]

While Gresley and Stanier leaped at the chance and designed locos around it, the GWR designers showed little enthusiasm and equally no understanding of aerodynamics - I can see an awful lot of flaws.

 

I am not sure what happened in the case of Bullied, choosing a very large blunt end with sides to impede airflow that was more likely to cost an additional 50HP at speed rather than reduce it. I am not surprised the drivers ended up with loads of smoke. Between the boiler burning lots of coal and the turbulence this front generated, it must have been a smoke screen.

Today we see a similar mess with so called environmentally friendly products. The one often seen being increasing the size of the package to eat more shelf space and then claiming it is from recycled material. You could still use less material dammit...

 

From what I have read elsewhere, I don't think Bulleid was looking at airflow, but rather, the ability to run through a carriage washing plant. Of course, that could have just been a rumour, but I have seen it in print somewhere.

[Hroth]

The tale goes that when the PR men wanted a "streamliner" on the Western, Collett, who wasn't at all keen on the idea, picked up a model of (IIRC) a Castle and rubbed some Plasticine over it and told the works to produce it!

 

I thought the wedge cab was OK and the straight splashers not too bad, but the rest ............Arrrgggh!

 

Even the LNER and LMS attempts were less than useful in practice as the streamlining did little or nothing at normal operating speeds and impeded maintenance.

No doubt Bulleid's efforts fared no better.

 

Keith

As I understand the GWR "streamlining" thing, Collet realised that head-on drag reduction was largely negated by the effect of lateral drag from the effect of wind on the side of a long train.  It would be interesting to see comparative tests of all the "streamlining" styles in a wind tunnel, head on and with side drag.

 

Another thought. Gresley streamlined a couple of Sandringham 4-6-0s for prestiege East Anglian services. The poor things looked like cut-down A4s, and it was all a short-lived publicity stunt anyway!  I'm trying to think of what a Castle or a King, dolled up in any of the contempoary streamlining styles, would look like and the mind just revolts...

[Robin Brasher]

On page 19 of Bulleid Power A.J. Fry said "The idea of air-smoothed casing was to enable the engine to proceed through the carriage washing plant for cleaning - but the locomotives never entered such a domain."

 

Tri-ang made a TT gauge air smoothed Merchant Navy in 1959. The success of this model may have inspired Tri-ang to produce the air smoothed Battle of Britain in late 1961. I wonder if the sales would have been better if Tri-ang had produced a Merchant Navy instead. I don't think that Tri-ang ever used an adjective to describe their Bulleid Pacifics.

[bigherb]

I am not sure what happened in the case of Bullied, choosing a very large blunt end with sides to impede airflow that was more likely to cost an additional 50HP at speed rather than reduce it. I am not surprised the drivers ended up with loads of smoke. Between the boiler burning lots of coal and the turbulence this front generated, it must have been a smoke screen.

 

It actually works the opposite way a flat front creates a wedge of high pressure air in front of it allowing incoming lower pressure air to go around it, hence car heater air intakes in front of the windscreen usually point upwards taking air from the high pressure area in front of the windscreen.

[JSpencer]

It actually works the opposite way a flat front creates a wedge of high pressure air in front of it allowing incoming lower pressure air to go around it, hence car heater air intakes in front of the windscreen usually point upwards taking air from the high pressure area in front of the windscreen.

 

The problem as designed is that a Merchant Navy was not  flat. It was more like fitting a big open box on the front of the car, with the opening facing forwards directly into it. Air then gets trapped and does not know where to go. Once the air flow becomes variable or unpredictable, there is no chance in controlling smoke. Later modifications clearly searched on how to have the air confine or drive the smoke into an airspace that will not affect the driver.

 

Aerodynamics and hydrodynamics is finding the right shape to cut through the medium as efficiently as possible. Its a mix of flow vs friction. A long surface will have more friction than a short one. Torpedoes are blunt ended for a few reasons, a pointy end will increase friction, make the torpedo unstable as it travels through water, but primarily to ensure after splashing in the water, it points the torpedo back upwards, stabilizes it quickly to the attacking depth and runs straight. and so on.

The Japanese discovered around 1923 that blunt shape shells would travel hundreds of meters just below the water line while pointy ones would loose energy rapidly (in fact the French had noticed this some 30 years before, developed and used dedicated torpedo shells prior to WWI). Their WWII naval shells had pointy windshields for the air which would disintegrate upon hitting the water, reveling a blunt large Armour piercing cap optimized for water. The trade off was poor armor penetration beyond a 20 degree angle though and only one US cruiser was known to have suffered damage from such a hit.

 

Conversely, putting an open box on the back of the car will carry the turbulence some distance behind it.

On the other hand, I doubt there would have been many wind tunnels available to test such dynamics on a loco in wartime, they and their staff would have been needed for various war related developments. So labour saving, use the washing plant looks perfectly plausible, after all some sketches showed an elongated Q1 which most probably means, producing something actually aerodynamic was almost certainly far from Bulleid's mind. He would also have been aware how beneficial or not it actually was in terms of performance, day 2 day use etc. And doubtless concluded the only real one, was publicity!

His final choice certainly meet publicity and easy to wash needs, but overlooked smoke which was eventually put right.

[Ian Abel]

...I'm trying to think of what a Castle or a King, dolled up in any of the contempoary streamlining styles, would look like and the mind just revolts...

Surely that's the case (...mind revolts...) streamlined or not, for those two??     

 

Coat, hat (tin/bomb proof for the use of)...off to find the nearest shelter/trench to avoid the fallout.