Hornby Merchant Navy announced (formerly Facebook leak)

[Dunsignalling]

Errr No. Thats now a class 71, Merchant Navy and Adams radial, with the first two now taking the main places in the 2015 announcement due in December! Who said it had to be a steam engine. The main period of transition era is dominated by Southern region models. Slam door EMU stock is all done for the Southern region. Thats as good as any steam engine release that ran on the same metals. At least 1st Gen DMUs diesls and (most) BR standards transfered between regions, but 3rd rail EMUS are designed to be sold for those modelling the Southern region proper and are as good as any specific Southern region engine. For anyone to say that any small area of Tyneside or Mersyside was factored in too is really stretching credibility.

 

When you look at the amount of engines both steam, ED, 3rd rail EMU, and diesel comissioned for the southern region it far outstrips everywhere else. Add too the amount of shop commissions for engines of that region too and the difference is easily noticed. 

 

Everyone knows that the area is popular but manufacturers are crowding the area at the expense of other regions, with prototypes that would sell just as well given the main locomotive types are made. Hence the 2nd tier of choices and novelty engines are what people are going for but again with others made, everyone is rushing to make them as they move down the list. The manufacturers are making the same observations and chosing the same engines to make, which is causing the duplication.

 

It leaves other areas without choice with prototypes that would match the volume of sales. Even if those choices are of limited geographical coverage or livery choice. As a result, the final slots that would have been the place of engines offered to a broad range previously that caters for everyone on rotation are reduced and thus areas are left to be done later to give companies the chance to sell the engines to finish those that Southern modellers want. This in turn causes irritation and envy amongst others when they see more obsure engines being selected for down south when a popular and common engine up north is ignored. It does make me think that saturation of the southern engines is causing the duplication issues.

 

Of course all that could be undone, if Bachmann announces a Q6 on monday! 

That lumps all of the Southern together in a way that I am sure you would not consider the constituents of the LNER.

 

I model the South Western part of the Southern region outside the electrified area (which only extends as far as Basingstoke on the West of England line) so EMUs, the SECR C Class and the Brighton E4 are no more appropriate for me than Bachmann's GC and Hornby's GE locos are for someone whose interests lie in N.E.R territory. 

 

Until the Rebuilt MN came along, Hornby didn't favour the Southern over the other Grouping companies (if anything, the reverse was true) but the popularity of that loco made them realise that there was significant money to be made from catering for us. That led to the M7, Light Pacifics of both kinds, King Arthurs, T9s, Schools and the wonderful Maunsell coaches, all of which attracted some thousands of pounds from my direction.

 

The 700, S15s and air-smoothed MNs are a natural extension of this success. Just a case of Hornby producing for customers they have already established are willing to spend.

 

The challenge for those whose chosen areas are ignored is to convince Hornby, Bachmann or whoever, that there are enough of them waiting with open wallets to make it worth their while covering their favourite subjects. If DJM's Q6 proves to be a hit, watch the others jump on the N.E.R bandwagon. 

 

John

[The Black Hat]

That lumps all of the Southern together in a way that I am sure you would not consider the constituents of the LNER.

 

I model the South Western part of the Southern region outside the electrified area (which only extends as far as Basingstoke on the West of England line) so EMUs, the SECR C Class and the Brighton E4 are no more appropriate for me than Bachmann's GC and Hornby's GE locos are for someone whose interests lie in N.E.R territory. 

 

Until the Rebuilt MN came along, Hornby didn't favour the Southern over the other Grouping companies (if anything, the reverse was true) but the popularity of that loco made them realise that there was significant money to be made from catering for us. That led to the M7, Light Pacifics of both kinds, King Arthurs, T9s, Schools and the wonderful Maunsell coaches, all of which attracted some thousands of pounds from my direction.

 

The 700, S15s and air-smoothed MNs are a natural extension of this success. Just a case of Hornby producing for customers they have already established are willing to spend.

 

The challenge for those whose chosen areas are ignored is to convince Hornby, Bachmann or whoever, that there are enough of them waiting with open wallets to make it worth their while covering their favourite subjects. If DJM's Q6 proves to be a hit, watch the others jump on the N.E.R bandwagon. 

 

John

 

I quite agree and appriciate the difference of what your pointing out, however, I would think that the majority of Southern modellers are modelling an area that overlaps so all of the regions stock could be run together. It also explains Southern protoypes popularity, in wish lists and polling if theres a more generic southern layout being the more popular choice as people buy the whole RTR range available from all manufacturers. The Rebuilt MN was a step chance in the accuracy and standards of a model and others that followed caused some to jump onto the Southern bandwagon as the high spec models saw a bunch that allowed a fleet to be built up. 

 

As you say, for me a D16/3 or J15 is as much use as a MN. But I actually think that the Hornby K1 flying of the shelves has been proof of that interest of up n'rth even before the Q6 arrives. Those 21T wagons arent going to sit around for long either.

 

I take your point though.

Edited February 28, 2015 by The Black Hat

[Ozexpatriate]

And sorry to be pedantic, but shouldn't it be called a Original Merchant Navy, rather than Unrebuilt? As to my mind 'Unrebuilt' implies the engine was rebuilt, then converted back. Though that may just be me...

Not just you Matt, it irks me every time I read 'unrebuilt'. Non-rebuilt looks better.

"Un-rebuilt" is a grammatical monstrosity.

 

I am reminded of Douglas Adams and "Dr. Dan Streetmentioner's Time Traveler's Handbook of 1001 Tense Formations" where "Most readers get as far as the Future Semiconditionally Modified Subinverted Plagal Past Subjunctive Intentional before giving up; and in fact in later additions of the book all pages beyond this point have been left blank to save on printing costs."

 

"As-built" is perfectly acceptable.

[JSpencer]

This is excellent news. When can I order??

 

The problem Hornby faces today is multiple players looking at possibly doing the same locos as models. Last year 3 of their all new models were duplicated. They have had to change, so I guess once they decide to go ahead with big spending then it is good policy I feel to announce as soon as they know rather than wait until the end of the year.

 

It will up to other companies to decide whether they wish to do the same or not.

 

I am glad they are doing ones from the first batch

Edited February 28, 2015 by JSpencer

[Ozexpatriate]

I have no problem with both Hornby, Bachmann or both producing an original MN, but the timing of Hornby's announcement offers fresh evidence of the sleaziness which seems to characterise the company's dealings with all and sundry.

'Sleaziness' ?  Perhaps a little strong there ? Surely this is just business. Given the opportunity, all will grasp the opportunity to be first to the post. There are no great moral ethics being trashed here.

Absolutely right! It's called 'doing a spoiler' and it's routine in competitive business.

The timing of Hornby's announcement is ungentlemanly. But this isn't cricket, it's business. Or as someone noted the reference to The Godfather:

 

"It's not personal, Sonny. It's strictly business."

But we're not talking about swimming with the fishes here, we're talking about who will build a nice model train first.

 

At this point we all expect Bachmann Branch-Line to announce a third series Merchant Navy on Monday and, as some have noted, it will be funny if they don't. Hornby has stolen Bachmann's thunder here, which is pretty cheeky of them, but they appear to be doing an original, as-built Flannel Jacket, which I don't think Bachmann will announce, so for that, I applaud them.

Edited February 28, 2015 by Ozexpatriate

[Guest]

"Un-rebuilt" is a grammatical monstrosity.

 

"As-built" is perfectly acceptable.

To clarify,

 

I was more implying that 'Unrebuilt' sounded wrong, than stating "Original" as the only correct term.

 

I grew up with the term "Original" so it was the first one that came to mind, but of course there are others which are equally as acceptable. e.g. "As built", "Air Smoothed" etc.

 

Apologies if what I said caused any confusion.

[Ozexpatriate]

Apologies if what I said caused any confusion.

No need to apologize. "Original" works for me too. Un-rebuilt is a poor choice for exactly the reasons you articulated.

[Oldddudders]

I would think that the majority of Southern modellers are modelling an area that overlaps so all of the regions stock could be run together.

Isn't that a bit patronising? It's like saying a Northumberland branch line is much the same as a GE one, whereas you would identify many differences, in the trains, the structures, the signals etc.

 

So the South Eastern modeller may relish either the MN, or the 71 - which replaced it. He will not have any interest in M7s, T9s, 700s, E4s, 0415s, but will have welcomed the C class, and has a Schools or two. The Central/Brighton guy will be gagging for the E4, has a few T9s, the odd M7, again a Schools or two, has lapped up the BILs and HALs if he likes EMUs. He has no use for the 700, 0415, the C class or the MN. The South Western chappie......  I need not go on.

 

I wouldn't presume to tell you which LNER and constituents' locos are relevant to your chosen patch, because I don't know. You do your credibility no favours by making sweeping generalisations about unfamiliar matters south of the Thames.

[The Black Hat]

And, trust me, there are some of us Southern types who would be deeply, deeply grateful for someone gratifying the NER contingent, just so we can stop being told how lucky we are!

 

 

Isn't that a bit patronising?

 

You have the audacity to accuse me of being patronising after your comment above?!

 

 

It's like saying a Northumberland branch line is much the same as a GE one, whereas you would identify many differences, in the trains, the structures, the signals etc.

 

So the South Eastern modeller may relish either the MN, or the 71 - which replaced it. He will not have any interest in M7s, T9s, 700s, E4s, 0415s, but will have welcomed the C class, and has a Schools or two. The Central/Brighton guy will be gagging for the E4, has a few T9s, the odd M7, again a Schools or two, has lapped up the BILs and HALs if he likes EMUs. He has no use for the 700, 0415, the C class or the MN. The South Western chappie...... I need not go on.

 

I wouldn't presume to tell you which LNER and constituents' locos are relevant to your chosen patch, because I don't know. You do your credibility no favours by making sweeping generalisations about unfamiliar matters south of the Thames.

 

Yeah theres differences between Northumberland and County Durham, with the GE. Hills for one.

 

As regards sweeping generalisations - my comments above are not. I was writing about the probability and the likelihood of someone modelling a more generic widespread southern location. Most layouts are ficticious rather than deliberately modelled on a specific area. Most of the time that is because they want to overlap areas of interest. As such I put forward the view that such a thinking is behind the reasoning why Southern models are more popular because theres a broader groundswell behind the area of wanting to buy them. The georgraphical area is smaller, especially between pregrouping companies and the overlap allows a more generic southern layout meaning that a southern modellers collection can encompass more. Id have midland engines for up north as they overlap and indeed already have purchased them.

 

As such anyone building a layout like that would be looking to get things around them. With the transition period being popular, and with the Southern area also being popular, to cover the whole area its seen models produced to cater for the region and offer the whole locomotive fleet - everything from pregrouping steam, to stock, slam door 3rd EMUS, EDs, diesels etc. Even if someone is modelling the south coast I would think many still buy an engine thats southern from the south west that just happens to turn up. Why else would everyone want to get a nice quaint Adams radial tank. The idea of every single southern layout in the country being Lyme regis is laughable to be prototypically accurate for a Adams radial, yet the engine polled highly because of its quaint look and Southern modellers want something that adds to the whole spectrum. USA dock tanks are the same. There has to be a broad favour for Southern engines to overlap, otherwise the vote between Southern areas would fragment and become obvious as is the case clearly between Eastern region areas where the georgraphical coverage is much bigger and some areas maintained their identity. This broad swell and favour is what is behind the driving popularity of Southern choices and as companies offer the whole range over other areas people choose to model it as the selection is easily availale.

 

My comments were not aimed at any one specific area of the southern region but the fact that companies offer the locomotive fleet for the entire region at the expense of elsewhere, and with popular engines done, the remaining southern engines become more selective and thus logical, meaning companies choose the same and thus create duplication, especially with shop commissions entering the fray alongside new companies. That its a desire to appeal to modellers who do want the broader overlapping southern range on a more broader southern layout, which must be the case due to the region as a whole being so popular and forcing the demand to the extent that the more selective models of the south match what would be a broadly popular engine else where, like the Caley 0-6-0 or the NER J27 - both highly desired models for regions waiting their turn.

 

Fact is that because of the Southerns history of having bespoke units like 3rd rail EMUs alongside steam etc make it one that stands out because everything is so identifably southern. It does mean that an awful lot is produced for the region but the companies will make it if the demand is there and since the rebuilt Merchant Navy, each release has encouraged another. I can see that continuing for some time yet.

Edited February 28, 2015 by The Black Hat

[Oldddudders]

You have the audacity to accuse me of being patronising after your comment above?!

Yes.

 

Next question.

[Ian Hargrave]

You have the audacity to accuse me of being patronising after your comment above?!

To assuage your Northener's longings,may all your little ones be B16's come Monday.

[Dunsignalling]

"Non-rebuilt" or "Air-smoothed" are safer terms given the frequency of modifications applied to the early MNs unless one is being very specific as to period.

 

It may seem a little extreme, but "as built" or "original" only truly describes Channel Packet's appearance up to the end of 1941 when the 'Horseshoe' plate on the smokebox door was converted to a full roundel !

 

John

Edited February 28, 2015 by Dunsignalling

[Budgie]

My confusion is caused by the very narrow sphere of operations of these locos. After all, their Route Availability meant they didn't really venture beyond Exeter, hardly saw Sussex in service, seldom slummed-it on a secondary route, still less a single line. They were heavy express locos, and that's that.

 

So, do all those enthusing here really have substantial main line layouts, on which an MN might look at home with 10 or more on the back? And, if not, wouldn't the Light Pacific be a more appropriate choice?

You don't need a main line layout; just a double-track commuter station (Crofton Park or Penge East, for example) with the Golden Arrow steaming through.

[Ian Hargrave]

"Un-rebuilt" is a grammatical monstrosity. I am reminded of Douglas Adams and "Dr. Dan Streetmentioner's Time Traveler's Handbook of 1001 Tense Formations" where "Most readers get as far as the Future Semiconditionally Modified Subinverted Plagal Past Subjunctive Intentional before giving up; and in fact in later additions of the book all pages beyond this point have been left blank to save on printing costs." "As-built" is perfectly acceptable.

Until I reached the age of 16,Mr.Bulleid's great work was known as a"Merchant Navy",without reference to any form of qualification.Then along came 35018.Life was never the same afterwards.

 

Today,I have the news I have been eagerly awaiting for years.I can relive the dream. Ye-Hah ! Black..Malacihite Sunshine....Blue....Green.In particular 35003 ,2nd August 1958.I still hear it.

[Ozexpatriate]

Well this thread has been a rollicking read this morning. I wasn't planning to visit RMweb today, but Hornby's email made for quite a diversion.
 
For the first time, I think we're missing the "disagree" button, with more than one intemperate comment today. Passions are evidently high. I'd hope that the one singled out is judged more as a misfired wisecrack than intentionally insulting - it was after all made in response to an earlier intemperate comment. Plus, I trust that guilt by association is not a factor in some people's thinking.
 
Moving on, today's thread really throws the wishlist poll process into further sharp relief - not that we needed it to.
 
As much as I continue to enjoy the wishlist poll, I think we can categorically conclude that it has had a direct impact on our hobby. That, after all, was it's purpose and it has served that purpose well. Too well? I don't think so, but it will be interesting to see how things proceed.  
 
I think we've reached a point where the judgement call made by marketing staff will become more important in product selection than the vox populi (except of course for GWR coaching stock, I mean, come on manufacturers, buy a clue!). So long as the marketing staff have a deep knowledge of railway history, or are happy to consort and consult with those who do, we should be in fine shape.
 
I make this point because there has been a change of top-level staff in the marketing departments in both Barwell and Margate/Sandwich and a great deal of experience is no longer in the direct employ of the manufacturers. Clearly from comments in this thread, Hornby is reaching out to experts in the modelling community to get details right and I presume that Bachmann Branch-Line is too.  I like that trend.
 
With so many truly popular choices now announced, not skimming the cream off the top of the wishlist poll is OK with me. (There's hardly any GWR stuff near the top of this list now anyway.) It might make the speculation game more of a crapshoot, but 'come on shooter, Papa wants a Peckett'.
 
I'll close with the thought that there will be no points for guessing an original air-smoothed Merchant Navy in the Hornby speculation thread come December 2015.

 

EDIT: Added link for clarity.

Edited February 28, 2015 by Ozexpatriate

[Ozexpatriate]

My confusion is caused by the very narrow sphere of operations of these locos. After all, their Route Availability meant they didn't really venture beyond Exeter, hardly saw Sussex in service, seldom slummed-it on a secondary route, still less a single line. They were heavy express locos, and that's that.

 

So, do all those enthusing here really have substantial main line layouts, on which an MN might look at home with 10 or more on the back? And, if not, wouldn't the Light Pacific be a more appropriate choice?

You don't need a main line layout; just a double-track commuter station (Crofton Park or Penge East, for example) with the Golden Arrow steaming through.

Let's not distress ourselves Ian.

 

Most of the people who will purchase an air-smoothed Merchant Navy probably don't exclusively model an SR main line.

 

The Merchant Navy is a show pony that, at best, will get trotted out occasionally because it looks nice, and will probably spend most of it's time in a display cabinet or in a box. Hornby knows their market. A model like 21C1 will sell well and more of them will probably get an outing on top of a TrakMat than on a 'proper' layout and there's nothing wrong with that.

Edited February 28, 2015 by Ozexpatriate

[Guest]

"Non-rebuilt" or "Air-smoothed" are safer terms given the frequency of modifications applied to the early MNs unless one is being very specific as to period.

 

It may seem a little extreme, but "as built" or "original" only truly describes Channel Packet's appearance up to the end of 1941 when the 'Horseshoe' plate on the smokebox door was converted to a full roundel !

 

John

I stand corrected.

[Ceptic]

YES!!!!!!!

 

'Bout blinkin' time !!!!!!!!

 

The last time I saw one of these,,modelled in 'OO', produced in r-t-r form, held in my mitts, watched it running, (on a commercial layout)    was the Graham Farish (also located in Kent, at the time) die-cast jobbie. based on the 3rd batch of MNs, IIRC.

 

Now, this raises the question. Have Bachmann acquired, through the acquisition of the Poole based company, Graham Farish's records / good will / original research on the loco, and have used it to produce their 'N' gauge version ?, knowing that sometime, in the future, they are going to produce an 'OO' version ?.

 

Also begs the question....'Where, which, what' records / drawings are Hornby using to model this loco on ?....or are they making up their own ?

Edited February 28, 2015 by Ceptic

[Ozexpatriate]

Also begs the question....'Where, which, what' records / drawings are Hornby basing this model on ?....or are they making up their own ?

This post might help answer that question:

 

I can confirm that Hornby have been working on this model for some time, and are well underway, with some assistance from myself already. My understanding is that it was held back from the 2015 announcement for a number of valid reasons. I am sure the timing is very much to do with the Bachmann announcements taking place on Monday.

 

I have now posted about this announcement here http://grahammuz.com/2015/02/28/Hornby-make-surprise-announcement-of-original-air-smooth-merchant-navy-pacific/

 

As stated above there are I am sure enough variations within this class to prevent any initial duplication should such a situation arise...

[caradoc]

Maybe there's one thing about the as-built Merchant Navy Hornby haven't revealed yet.......

 

 

 

It's TT gauge !!

[phil gollin]

.............    Moving on, today's thread really throws the wishlist poll process into further sharp relief - not that we needed it to.

 

As much as I continue to enjoy the wishlist poll, I think we can categorically conclude that it has had a direct impact on our hobby. That, after all, was it's purpose and it has served that purpose well. Too well? I don't think so, but it will be interesting to see how things proceed.  ...............

 

.

 

Yes, the wishlist poll has definitely become a two-faced sword.  

[Robin Brasher]

I am building a model of the Swanage Railway and I have got no excuse to run an airsmoothed Merchant Navy on my layout. The axle loading was too high for it to run on the Railway before preservation. As all the Merchant Navy class locomotives were rebuilt none can appear on the Swanage Railway unless someone restores one to airsmoothed condition.

 

This will not stop me from buying one. I remember my grandfather taking me to a footpath by Orpington Station in 1954 to see an airsmoothed Bulleid Pacific hauling the Golden Arrow. The locomotive was in BR green livery and was immaculate. I did not know whether it was a Merchant Navy or a light Pacific.

 

0 gauge Golden Age Merchant Navy Pacifics are regular performers on the Purbeck Model Railway Group's model railway at Swanage which is based on the Swanage Railway. I took the enclosed picture of a Strong and Co hoarding by a siding at Corfe Castle Station on the club's layout.

[Legend]

I really doubt Bachmann do more than basic research before announcing models, and I cite the Stanier 2-6-0 as evidence of this. I appreciate Bachmann probably have already CADs from developing there n gauge version but the reality is that unless they accelerate development Hornby must steel a march here if their model appears in 2016.

 

There is a big assumption that Bachmann are doing an unrebuilt MN . But if they are, and even if the catalogues are already printed, I'd pull the plug and go and do something else instead. In the past I'd say the Bachmann one might be less expensive but their last price increases probably mean they lost this advantage

 

However best to wait until Monday. It maybe that Hornby have just announced the MN to steel some publicity from Bachmann ahead of their announcement on Monday which may or may not include an MN. It's not usual Bachmann territory

Edited February 28, 2015 by Legend

[Guest]

As all the Merchant Navy class locomotives were rebuilt none can appear on the Swanage Railway unless someone restores one to airsmoothed condition.

I believe there were plans to restore one of the preserved Rebuilt Merchant Navy's to an Un-rebuilt condition, but it was dropped due to a lack of interest.

[Peter Kazmierczak]

I reckon they're about the produce the Fell diesel-mechanical and are trying to put us off the scent by showing a MN chassis.