Hornby Class 71

[MGR Hooper!]

The NRM version looks spectacular...I can't wait to see the Hornby Class 71. Beautiful model. Doublecee (Craig) must be really proud!

[steve1023]

Just out of curiosity and bearing in mind comments made by the mod on page 5 - given that there are a lot of comment regarding increasing prices of RTR models - why are people considering this more expensive one over the cheaper alternative?

 

Steve

[antrobuscp]

Just out of curiosity and bearing in mind comments made by the mod on page 5 - given that there are a lot of comment regarding increasing prices of RTR models - why are people considering this more expensive one over the cheaper alternative?

 

Steve

I don't yet know if I'll buy a 71. If I do it's much more likely to be the Hornby version because the other is to use a coreless motor. I use DC feedback controllers.

[olivegreen]

I don't yet know if I'll buy a 71. If I do it's much more likely to be the Hornby version because the other is to use a coreless motor. I use DC feedback controllers.

 

Thanks for that reminder…I am in the same boat and had forgotten that aspect.

[Ian Hargrave]

Thanks for that reminder…I am in the same boat and had forgotten that aspect.

I seem to remember we've been here before.It is well -worth a reminder though.

[Jim104]

Thanks for that reminder…I am in the same boat and had forgotten that aspect.

It is such a shame that Coreless motors are being favoured by certain manufacturers at the moment, they are pandering to the DCC brigade and I think there is still a big market for DC and feedback controllers, I have suspicions that it's all part of the commercial pressure being applied to force customers away from DC so that the business side of model railways can prosper in trying to get us to re-purchase everything again. Thank goodness Hornby still produce motors that are suitable for us in the DC world. The likes of DJ models could further enhance their products by supplying their models with non Coreless motors as well, they would sell more models that way. Their models are supurb in detail and finish and are a credit to but a non starter for us with feed back controllers. I cancelled all my preorders when I found out about this Coreless issue. It was too late to stop the O2 tank arriving, am yet to be brave enough to run it and see what happens to it, overheating I suspect.

Not trying to open up a war here re DCC/DC. :-) but my four penny worth.

[217 RIVER FLESK]

It is such a shame that Coreless motors are being favoured by certain manufacturers at the moment, they are pandering to the DCC brigade and I think there is still a big market for DC and feedback controllers, I have suspicions that it's all part of the commercial pressure being applied to force customers away from DC so that the business side of model railways can prosper in trying to get us to re-purchase everything again. Thank goodness Hornby still produce motors that are suitable for us in the DC world. The likes of DJ models could further enhance their products by supplying their models with non Coreless motors as well, they would sell more models that way. Their models are supurb in detail and finish and are a credit to but a non starter for us with feed back controllers. I cancelled all my preorders when I found out about this Coreless issue. It was too late to stop the O2 tank arriving, am yet to be brave enough to run it and see what happens to it, overheating I suspect.

Not trying to open up a war here re DCC/DC. :-) but my four penny worth.

This probably isn't the thread to post this in, but what is the advantage of a coreless motor over what I guess you might call a conventional motor? Is it just reduced manufacturing costs or is it a genuinely a superior motor?

[steve1023]

This probably isn't the thread to post this in, but what is the advantage of a coreless motor over what I guess you might call a conventional motor? Is it just reduced manufacturing costs or is it a genuinely a superior motor?

Agree - also forgive my ignorance - but as somebody who has yet to delve into DCC does this mean a coreless motor will be a problem with DC?

[olivegreen]

Agree - also forgive my ignorance - but as somebody who has yet to delve into DCC does this mean a coreless motor will be a problem with DC?

 

Not exactly: it will be a problem, though,  if you use feedback controllers which, we are reliably informed, will (in time) be fatal to the coreless motor.

As Ian Hargrave mentions above, we have been here before - I think it was on the DJ/Kernow models 02 thread…put in a few key words in the box in the top RH corner of this page and you should find it.

 

This probably isn't the thread to post this in, but what is the advantage of a coreless motor over what I guess you might call a conventional motor? Is it just reduced manufacturing costs or is it a genuinely a superior motor?

 

In my experience the advantages - or otherwise - expressed depend on the person to whom you are talking!  In my view, the jury is still out on the issue.

For me, I simply find it irritating that I have to change my controllers (the cheaper option) in order to cope with the excellent DJ models now being released, and I flatly refuse to spend the inordinate amount of money that would be needed to convert my entire stock to DCC.

 

Yah boo! (End of rant)

 

Mike

[DavidH]

I wondered about this, but a quick search here and on the web suggests there isn't an overwhelming body of complaints that their coreless motors have died using feedback controllers.

 

To put it in perspective, I have locos bought over the last 30 years, from all the main manufacturers, some of which don't partiularly like the AMR HH (early feedback I believe) although some work like a dream on it; those that don't like the AMR work better on the Gaugemaster W (non-feedback); and of course most seem ok with the old steam-powered Duette. 

 

This basically suggests to me there's already variation, often from the same manuacturer, in how the motors in different models respond. If the coreless motors work better on one controller over another, it is merely part of a long-standing issue, and nothing to throw up our hands in horror at the idea of - it just needs a pragmatic work-around if issues arise. But that's just one opinion among many.

 

In any case, a new controller from e.g. Gaugemaster can be a fraction of the cost of the Hornby 71. In fact, the W type is about a quarter of the cost. What's the problem?

[JSpencer]

Not exactly: it will be a problem, though,  if you use feedback controllers which, we are reliably informed, will (in time) be fatal to the coreless motor.

As Ian Hargrave mentions above, we have been here before - I think it was on the DJ/Kernow models 02 thread…put in a few key words in the box in the top RH corner of this page and you should find it.

 

 

 

In my experience the advantages - or otherwise - expressed depend on the person to whom you are talking!  In my view, the jury is still out on the issue.

For me, I simply find it irritating that I have to change my controllers (the cheaper option) in order to cope with the excellent DJ models now being released, and I flatly refuse to spend the inordinate amount of money that would be needed to convert my entire stock to DCC.

 

Yah boo! (End of rant)

 

Mike

There are many factors which enter into a motor design. These get simplified into high level terms like skew wound, coreless, 5-pole, 7-pole etc. which imply certain advantages accordingly.

Unfortunately it is not that simple. Hornby specially developed an expensive, 5-pole skew wound, iron core motor with super duper magnets that is perfect for model railway purposes. It's expensive but extremely efficient and powerful with torque values that will knock spots off most coreless motors.

The motor however is one part of the package. You have pick ups, drive train etc.

At the same time, there are coreless motors that have no issues with feedback.

 

The bulk of issues that arise with model railway electric motors is that they are often off the shelf items, jack of all trade motors not designed with model railways in mind.

We take these and ask them to turn at very slow speeds so that we can watch heavy locos and trains gently creep along. This is worst thing we can actually ask a motor since torque and heat will be at the maximum level. Coreless or not, they don,t like it. Feedback adds to the problem, iron cores can absorb and conduct away the heat, coreless cannot unless the outer skin is designed as such.

[antrobuscp]

I use H & M Walkabout controllers which are, I believe a feedback type. They are, by a mile, the best DC controllers I have ever come across. After using one of these units, I find that a knob style controller is simply uncomfortable in use, and the inertia facility in the Walkabout is the most controllable unless you skip to DCC. It is not so simple as to go out and buy a different type of controller because there are none that match up to the Walkabout for me.

 

I did buy a DJM O2, and the loco works well with the Walkabout but it is slightly more noisy than when used on a Gaugemaster controller or an old H & M Powermaster. This suggests to me that there might be an issue with long term feedback use.

 

If there is no alternative I would/will consider a DJM product, but I buy models to use, not to sit and look pretty, so it is a simple choice for me to choose a "normal" motor over a coreless one even if the detail on the coreless version is better/more accurate.

 

Colin

[Meld9003]

If I remember correctly, the issue is the start-stop cycle as coreless motors are only rated for so many starts. Coreless motors can stop very quickly when current is removed. Old school feedback controllers or pulsed controllers can have big enough gaps at slow speed that the motor effectively starts and stops many times a second. More modern controllers use a higher frequency so the motor should never stops spinning. This is also why some older and cheaper DCC chips are not recommended for coreless motors.

[jjb1970]

I think that model train motors are one of those subjects where it is good to take a step back from marketing and spin. Clearly the motor is important, but it is one part of a drive train and in my experience it is the motor installation, transmission arrangement, axle bearings and electrical pickups that are critical to performance, more so than whether it is three or five pole motor, coreless, skew wound etc. Bachmann and some of the Hornby design clever models demonstrate the point that a decent three pole motor with flywheels is fully capable of providing silky smooth, quiet and powerful performance. I have models dating from the 1990’s which are quieter and smoother than many of my recent models despite probably being nominally less high spec (Kato made some spookily smooth and quiet models in that era which are still my benchmark for performance). One of the smoothest models I ever saw was an antiquated old Kleinbahn Austrian electric that was to all intents and purposes silent and could run with eerie smoothness down to a crawl despite using motor bogies that looked like something from the 50’s with open frame motors. Companies like handy marketing handles (think the megapixel arms race of digital cameras, the power output of hi-fi amplifiers, the functions on smart devices that nobody I know ever uses etc), clearly if a five pole skew wound motor does offer better performance than that is good but in reality I’ve found that it is just another of those things that is more marketing spin than genuine improvement in terms of real performance.

 

On the coreless and DCC issue, I think as long as the manufacturer makes clear that a motor may be unsuitable for certain types of DC controller then that is their decision to make and it is not unreasonable for a manufacturer to offer a product which is better suited to DCC users if they see that as their principal market. Clearly they risk losing some sales, but equally they also may gain sales to DCC users. That said, when it is perfectly possible to provide excellent performance using motors which are suitable for different types of control then that is probably the approach I’d go for if it was my choice, but that’s just me.

[MGR Hooper!]

[Andy Y]

Which confirms, it appears, that they have erroneously included the cab vents on two out of the three production models.

[Joseph_Pestell]

I wondered about this, but a quick search here and on the web suggests there isn't an overwhelming body of complaints that their coreless motors have died using feedback controllers.

 

To put it in perspective, I have locos bought over the last 30 years, from all the main manufacturers, some of which don't partiularly like the AMR HH (early feedback I believe) although some work like a dream on it; those that don't like the AMR work better on the Gaugemaster W (non-feedback); and of course most seem ok with the old steam-powered Duette. 

 

This basically suggests to me there's already variation, often from the same manuacturer, in how the motors in different models respond. If the coreless motors work better on one controller over another, it is merely part of a long-standing issue, and nothing to throw up our hands in horror at the idea of - it just needs a pragmatic work-around if issues arise. But that's just one opinion among many.

 

In any case, a new controller from e.g. Gaugemaster can be a fraction of the cost of the Hornby 71. In fact, the W type is about a quarter of the cost. What's the problem?

Your experience matches mine. Some coreless motors will work happily with a feedback controller (KPC) and others will emit a loud buzzing noise and fry. Why that is, I have no idea. Some controllers have the option to switch out the feedback function.

[JSpencer]

Which confirms, it appears, that they have erroneously included the cab vents on two out of the three production models.

If E5001 (green with small panels) is being marketed as her 1960s form I agree. However she had this livery and vents as preserved at the NRM.

 

Fortunately there is a choice for early 60s ones, and my heart is spoken for here.

[Wheatley]

At least the cab corners are the right shape on this one.

[Andy Y]

At least the cab corners are the right shape on this one.

 

That was addressed back in March - http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/88264-oo-gauge-class-71-electric-locomotive/?p=2245448

[Wheatley]

And they're still not flared properly.

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/88264-oo-gauge-class-71-electric-locomotive/page-35&do=findComment&comment=2256760

 

Edited to add link.

Edited June 9, 2016 by Wheatley

[DavidH]

At least Hornby's doesn't have the rainstrip, so there's less to remove with the scalpel.

[Brian Hawkins]

I visited my local model shop yesterday and the owner informed me that she expects the model to arrive sometime this week.

[PrestburyJack]

From the Hornby website:

 

The wait is nearly over! Browse the new products below that will be arriving over the next few weeks - all of these products are now en route by sea or air to Hornby HQ.

[Stevelewis]

Not  sure  if  reported  elswhere  but  HATTONS  expect  delivery  on  28th  JUNE 16  ( Next  Tuesday).

 

I have  noticed  with  some  new  releases  that  some  retailers  sometimes  get  them  earlier  than  the big  boys

Edited June 21, 2016 by Stevelewis