Midland Railway Company

[DerbyLNWR]

A slightly different question regarding the neat stacks of coal you sometimes see in loco yards. David Hunt in his wonderfully observed model of a typical Midland shed has reproduced one of these large stacks very convincingly. The sides  almost look like dry stone walls built out of coal. I am just wondering at the best way of reproducing these in O scale.  Would anyone have any thoughts ? Were there any typical dimensions or just whatever fitted a given site? I am assuming they were a seasonal store when coal prices were cheaper ? Many thanks

Jonathan 

[Dave Hunt]

I made the coal stack by constructing a plywood box that I covered in Das clay then scribed and chpped the clay to look like a dry stone wall, painted it matt black and applied weathering powders. The top is a piece of ply with bashed up coal stuck on a la ballasting, I.e., diluted PVA with a dash of washing up liquid. To be honest, it is actually a bit small for a shed the size of mine and is due for enlargement one day when I have replenished my stock of round tuits.

 

Dave

[bbishop]

It might be better to use oblong tuits.

[Dave Hunt]

To answer your question more fully Jonathan, the coal stacks seem generally to have been built up in the spring and summer when coal was relatively cheap then whittled away in winter, although it would seem that some were kept as strategic reserves for longer than that . At some stage the practice started of whitewashing them to avoid pilfering but when that was I have been unable to ascertain with any certainty. Hence for the moment at least my 1906 stack is still black.

 

Dave

[kevinlms]

3 hours ago, Dave Hunt said:

To answer your question more fully Jonathan, the coal stacks seem generally to have been built up in the spring and summer when coal was relatively cheap then whittled away in winter, although it would seem that some were kept as strategic reserves for longer than that . At some stage the practice started of whitewashing them to avoid pilfering but when that was I have been unable to ascertain with any certainty. Hence for the moment at least my 1906 stack is still black.

 

Dave

The whitewash, wouldn't help identify the culprit. All it would is let the boss know that some had grown legs!

 

How would the boss know if particular people had stolen it?

[DenysW]

3 hours ago, Dave Hunt said:

At some stage the practice started of whitewashing them to avoid pilfering

And there was me thinking that this practice was solely anti-Army propaganda: "If it moves, salute it. If it doesn't move, whitewash it." Anecdotally especially done before Royal visits.

[DerbyLNWR]

David thank you so much - really helpful. I shall have a go in due course.,

[DerbyLNWR]

Doe anyone have any good photos of pre-grouping coal stacks ?

 

[Compound2632]

37 minutes ago, DerbyLNWR said:

Doe anyone have any good photos of pre-grouping coal stacks ?

 

The Midland Railway Study Centre does:

 

 

MRSC 65148, Bath, after 1907.

 

 

MRSC 65156, unknown location, after 1892.

 

 

MRSC 81438, Bath shed, after 1908.

 

 

MRSC 82397, Staveley shed, c. 1910.

 

 

MRSC 91024, Bath, c. 1890, probably Bleasdale photo.

 

 

MRSC 91068, Bedford c. 1900 - whitewash!

 

 

MRSC 91278, Bournville shed c. 1890.

 

 

MRSC 91306, Sheffield Brightside, January 1895.

 

 

MRSC 91338, Liverpool Brunswick, c. 1890.

 

 

MRSC 91442, Carlisle Durranhill, c. 1900.

 

 

MRSC 91504, Weston-super-Mare c. 1910 - a Great Western example!

 

 

MRSC 92369, Kentish Town, c. 1900.

 

 

MRSC 92433, Kentish Town, later 1890s. This angle gives an idea of the batter of the wall, which has been whitewashed.

 

 

MRSC 92620, Leeds Holbeck, c. 1885.

 

That should be enough to be going on with - there are more, but mostly at the same locations. It's unfortunate that in nearly all these photos, there's an engine blocking the view of the coal stack.

 

All embedded links to catalogue thumbnails / images.

https://www.midlandrailwaystudycentre.org.uk/catalogue.php

[Dave Hunt]

3 hours ago, kevinlms said:

The whitewash, wouldn't help identify the culprit. All it would is let the boss know that some had grown legs!

 

How would the boss know if particular people had stolen it?

 

Of course it wouldn't show who did it except that removing it may be a bit more obvious if it's whitewashed, e.g., "Where are you going with that bucket of coal Bloggs?" "I'm just taking it from the coaling stage to the shed for lighting up Sir." "Ah, so how come it's whitewashed then?" Also it would alert the shedmaster that pilfering was going on and thus maybe deter people from pinching it. I believe from some old railwaymen that the main source of pilfered coal was that which was thrown onto the trackside by locomotive crews.

 

Dave 

[Dave Hunt]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

The Midland Railway Study Centre does:

 

Thanks for posting all those photographs Stephen. I hadn't realised how early it was that some stacks were whitewashed. I wonder why there was so much difference?

 

Dave

[Compound2632]

The whitewash might simply be to provide a suitable photographic background for all thise wonderful Johnson engines!

[kevinlms]

5 hours ago, Dave Hunt said:

 

Of course it wouldn't show who did it except that removing it may be a bit more obvious if it's whitewashed, e.g., "Where are you going with that bucket of coal Bloggs?" "I'm just taking it from the coaling stage to the shed for lighting up Sir." "Ah, so how come it's whitewashed then?" Also it would alert the shedmaster that pilfering was going on and thus maybe deter people from pinching it. I believe from some old railwaymen that the main source of pilfered coal was that which was thrown onto the trackside by locomotive crews.

 

Dave 

I've read of stories where people would make rude gestures at loco crews, who would respond by throwing large lumps of coal. Something suggests that it was deliberate by family members!

[DerbyLNWR]

Thanks so much for all those wonderful photos. Really helpful. They really do look like dry stone walls and some are quite a height !

JM

[Compound2632]

That breakdown train in that Holbeck photo is worth a closer look:

 

 

 

[Crop from MRSC 92690]

 

I suppose the c. 1885 date is from the condition of the Kirtley 0-6-0 No. 1019 also in the photo with its Kirtley boiler, which was replaced with a Johnson B boiler in 1889, according to S. Summerson, Midland Railway Locomotives Vol. 2 (Irwell Press, 2007), but I feel it could be earlier.

 

The vans look very like the brake third in a well-known photo of Dursley said to have been taken on the opening day to passengers, 18 September 1856, but probably the following year, during the period when the line was worked by the contractor's locomotive and two carriages hired from the Midland:

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue thumbnail of MRSC 60554.]

 

According to R.E. Lacy & G. Dow, Midland Railway Carriages (Wild Swan, 1986) p. 23, the Dursley carriage is apparently a conversion from a Brown, Marshall four-compartment third of 1850, one of a batch of 100, these being practically the only new third class carriages ordered between the 1844 amalgamation and 1858, when a further 40 were ordered from Joseph Wright. 

 

The dumb-buffer match trucks are of an early style of construction too, with no curb rail and, I think, with corner straps rather than single corner plates.

 

The whole train looks rather dark, which would suggest the Locomotive Department was already painting such things red - oxide of iron. If the c. 1885 date is correct, then this is only a couple of years after the adoption of red for engines - though I think these vehicles look fairly recently painted.

 

But that does raise the question of the colour of brakedown cranes and associated vehicles in the green engine period!

Edited Monday at 11:32 by Compound2632

[Dave Hunt]

3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

The whole train looks rather dark, which would suggest the Locomotive Department was already painting such things red - oxide of iron. If the c. 1885 date is correct, then this is only a couple of years after the adoption of red for engines - though I think these vehicles look fairly recently painted.

 

But that does raise the question of the colour of brakedown cranes and associated vehicles in the green engine period!

 

Stephen,

 

I suggest that you go on Mastermind with the specialist subject of, "How to open cans of worms."

 

Dave

[Aire Head]

14 hours ago, kevinlms said:

I've read of stories where people would make rude gestures at loco crews, who would respond by throwing large lumps of coal. Something suggests that it was deliberate by family members!

 

Rumour abound of an old lady somewhere on the S&C (usually Dent) who placed bottles on the top of a wall so that bored locomotive crews would throw lumps of coal at the trying to knock them over. She would then scoop up the lumps up out of her garden and enjoy her free coal.

[kevinlms]

48 minutes ago, Aire Head said:

 

Rumour abound of an old lady somewhere on the S&C (usually Dent) who placed bottles on the top of a wall so that bored locomotive crews would throw lumps of coal at the trying to knock them over. She would then scoop up the lumps up out of her garden and enjoy her free coal.

Home delivered for free too!

[Dave Hunt]

When we lived next to the Sleaford - Boston line in the early 80s you could still find lumps of coal in the ballast and the cess. The tenders and bunkers of my model locomotives are filled with it.

 

Dave 

Edited Monday at 15:33 by Dave Hunt

[Tom Burnham]

Well one gathers that before Mr Paget's train control, a Midland goods engine crew could spend their entire shift in the same loop, so they probably got bored!

[Compound2632]

3 hours ago, Tom Burnham said:

Well one gathers that before Mr Paget's train control, a Midland goods engine crew could spend their entire shift in the same loop, so they probably got bored!

 

Notwithstanding the invention of Control, one gets the impression from Terry Essery's writings that the same was true in the 1950s.

[kevinlms]

7 hours ago, Tom Burnham said:

Well one gathers that before Mr Paget's train control, a Midland goods engine crew could spend their entire shift in the same loop, so they probably got bored!

Did the Midland have more of a problem than other railways or was it a standard problem that the Midland was first to deal with in a significant way?

I know that the LNWR had a number of transhipment sheds, where the aim was to reduce the number of wagons running around the system, with only a fraction of their capacity. 

I seen to remember that this made a notable difference to the number of wagons required. Thus saving lots of movement. 

 

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, kevinlms said:

Did the Midland have more of a problem than other railways or was it a standard problem that the Midland was first to deal with in a significant way?

I know that the LNWR had a number of transhipment sheds, where the aim was to reduce the number of wagons running around the system, with only a fraction of their capacity. 

 

The Midland also had transhipment sheds at major centres. The LNWR's novelty was to focus transhipment on Crewe. But that only helped with merchandise traffic and was principally a method of dealing with small consignments. The trains that stood for a shift, both in the early years of the 20th century and again in the 1950s, were mineral trains standing out of the way of the higher priority goods trains. The problem really was the volume of mineral traffic over the core of the system, and the complexity of that Derbys / Notts / South Yorks network.

[Jeremy Cumberland]

On 15/09/2024 at 16:06, DenysW said:

And there was me thinking that this practice was solely anti-Army propaganda: "If it moves, salute it. If it doesn't move, whitewash it." Anecdotally especially done before Royal visits.

Surely I don't need to tell anyone on here that whitewashing railway coal stacks is mentioned in The Railway Children, written in 1905:

Quote

on one side was a great heap of coal—not a loose heap, such as you see in your coal cellar, but a sort of solid building of coals with large square blocks of coal outside used just as though they were bricks, and built up till the heap looked like the picture of the Cities of the Plain in Bible Stories for Infants. There was a line of whitewash near the top of the coaly wall.

[DenysW]

7 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Notwithstanding the invention of Control, one gets the impression from Terry Essery's writings that the same was true in the 1950s.

Most of the relevant anecdotes I've read imply that the Midland and L&YR versions of Train Control were not implemented outside the two original companies other than as a good-faith attempt and/or lip-service . With Train Control you shouldn't need lamps on the locomotive to say what it is - everyone knows exactly the day's schedule, including the revisions to the WTT needed for that particular day's challenges. Yet lamp codes lasted to the end of steam. Signallers don't make routing decisions any more because all the paths are pre-planned. And so on.

 

As an example of limited buy-in there's the much-quoted anecdote of the ex-LNWR driver declining a pilot engine ("This isn't the bl$$dy Midland") when the dispatcher counts the carriages and finds the train to be too heavy for that class of locomotive. With Train Control you don't add carriages on the fly, so you either plan for the extra coaches, and a pilot or not, based on what main locomotive is available, the load and the route. Counting coaches (and having some-one to do it) is a failure to implement Train Control.

 

The report on the Midland's version in the 1922 Railway Gazette does somewhat dance-around dealing with weather and mechanical failures, however.