well filled baps The Sheep Chronicles. The adventures of a Sheep, the Works Forecat and the Works Apprentice, George.

[Willl]

Sad to hear that Rob but it sounds like the right call. Do you think you'll have another stab at the SECR branch line idea or are you taking a break for now?

[NHY 581]

27 minutes ago, Willl said:

Sad to hear that Rob but it sounds like the right call. Do you think you'll have another stab at the SECR branch line idea or are you taking a break for now?

 

Hi Will, 

 

It is the right call and I'm glad I made it. There will at some point be a venture into SE&CR land but not for a while yet and I may well try something else before coming back to it. 

 

One of the key issues, wonky boards aside was the performance of the Hattons P class and the Rails Terrier through the Peco Bullhead points. This led to a change to Peco Code 75 streamline. However, as a consequence of my trip to Bracknell Expo EM, I want to move away from Peco Streamline, so I need to resolve these issues. Now I either sort the Bullhead points to ensure good running or I adopt a different brand of kit built trackwork, such as British Finescale. I am however aware that others have had issues with Peco Bullhead points. 

 

A test piece will be tried out with bullhead points fully motored and wired. Once I understand that, I may well embark on a new layout but I'm placing no timescale or deadline on this. Once I am 100% happy that I know what I'm doing then and only then will I resurrect Lambsdown. I've had two failed attempts to produce a new layout this year. I can't afford the time, the expense or the stress that this has involved. 

 

As I said before, my trip to Bracknell really opened my eyes to a real need to make changes as to how I go about the whole railway modelling thing. 

 

And that is exactly what I'm doing. 

 

 

[NHY 581]

Ewe is at the Exeter show in a little under two weeks. There have been things I wanted to do with both Sheep Dip and Ewe for ages but not done due to other things getting in the way. One job was a grounded van body for Ewe. Such van bodies were widespread across the former GER, especially at small stations in East Anglia where they provided additional storage.

 

 

At Bracknell I saw a 3D printed GER 10ton van body from Marc Dobson at Pre-Grouping Railways. Perfect.  I ordered a couple and they were  received last week. So out came the paints and powders and over the course of a few evenings, we went from this.....

 

 

 

To this...

 

 

Via this

 

 

 

 

Paused at this

 

 

 

 

And finally arrived at this......

 

 

Rob. 

[Graham T]

Lovely!

 

[New Haven Neil]

37 minutes ago, NHY 581 said:

he performance of the Hattons P class and the Rails Terrier through the Peco Bullhead points.

 

Rob, I'm interested to hear your thoughts on this, is it a back-to-back issue?  I'm considering a little dabble in these tiny gauges 😉 to get some use out of all the stock in the loft (tons....) and had thought of using bullhead.  I feel a diorama coming on....

[Donw]

If there are just a few turnouts you could try the British Finescale ones.

 

Don

[Willl]

1 hour ago, NHY 581 said:

 

One of the key issues, wonky boards aside was the performance of the Hattons P class and the Rails Terrier through the Peco Bullhead points. This led to a change to Peco Code 75 streamline. However, as a consequence of my trip to Bracknell Expo EM, I want to move away from Peco Streamline, so I need to resolve these issues. Now I either sort the Bullhead points to ensure good running or I adopt a different brand of kit built trackwork, such as British Finescale. I am however aware that others have had issues with Peco Bullhead points. 

 

 

I can't comment on the Rails terrier, but i'm intrigued to hear you have had issues with the P. I was going to comment I've not had that issue with mine but then realised I fitted it with sound and a stay alive (quite a tight squeeze) before I build Pattyndenne, so it never ran on bullhead sans stay alive. If you're willing to do some DCC fiddling you can put a Lais stay alive in the left hand water tank without too much work (you have to 1. remove the 6 pin socket and hard wire it and 2. remove a small weight from the chassis which is held on with a screw. The decoder is then put in the right hand water tank).

 

I've had my fair share of issues with bullhead. In particular, the points seem to bend and warp quite badly (maybe temperature related?) which has given me grief with smaller locos. However, until now i've assumed thats just due to bad track layout or my use of track pins rather than glue.

Edited June 11 by Willl

[NHY 581]

32 minutes ago, New Haven Neil said:

 

Rob, I'm interested to hear your thoughts on this, is it a back-to-back issue?  I'm considering a little dabble in these tiny gauges 😉 to get some use out of all the stock in the loft (tons....) and had thought of using bullhead.  I feel a diorama coming on....

 

I know Chris H @Gilbert has been taking a close look due to some issues he's had. I understand there is some gauge narrowing through the curved section . My own experience was that the Terrier did not like the frogs. The B2B on the Terrier is 14.5 but the driven axle lacks sideplay and it really didn't like passing through the frogs. 

The wheelbase of the P Class corresponded with the two tiny isolating sections on the frogs in that the little chap stuttered as two out of the six wheels were isolated.  I'll know and understand more once I sit quietly and create a test piece, wiring the point as per instructions. But, both locos performed as required through the Code 75 Streamline points. 

 

Rob

 

 

[NHY 581]

I should add that when  installed on Lambsdown, there was no feed to the frogs, hence my desire to wire as per instructions. 

 

Also, my understanding is that the suspicion of gauge narrowing relates to the medium radius only. 

 

BUT both locos ran well through medium radius code 75 streamline, electrofrogs which had no additional wiring, literally unwrapped and nailed down. 

[New Haven Neil]

10 minutes ago, NHY 581 said:

I'll know and understand more once I sit quietly and create a test piece, wiring the point as per instructions

 

Waiting with great interest to see how that pans out, Rob.  Cheeeers in a sheepy baa.

[NHY 581]

Just now, New Haven Neil said:

 

Waiting with great interest to see how that pans out, Rob.  Cheeeers in a sheepy baa.

 

 

Thanks Neil but I'd get comfortable. You may have a bit of a  wait.....

 

 

[Gilbert]

2 minutes ago, NHY 581 said:

I should add that when  installed on Lambsdown, there was no feed to the frogs, hence my desire to wire as per instructions. 

 

Also, my understanding is that the suspicion of gauge narrowing relates to the medium radius only. 

 

BUT both locos ran well through medium radius code 75 streamline, electrofrogs which had no additional wiring, literally unwrapped and nailed down. 

To clear about my BH issues - they only relate to medium points and only a few wagons from one manufacturer where the B2B was wider than what I would regard as a standard.

Having said that I spoke to one fellow exhibitor at Stow Rail who had issues with his PI Victory...and its all a bit deflating tbh.

Pile Street has been built with the Peco BH> points and I'm spending quite a bit of time "fettling"....

Chros H

[New Haven Neil]

5 minutes ago, NHY 581 said:

 

 

Thanks Neil but I'd get comfortable. You may have a bit of a  wait.....

 

 

 

Retirement life, I can wait - time is a concept of the working man!

[mullie]

More Thaxted branch stations.

 

Cutlers Green Halt, apparently had no road access.

 

And Mill Road.

 

 

I've long had a fascination with the line as I know the area well.

Apparently planes flying into Stansted are so low as they fly over Thaxted they have their wheels down. How things change.

[Gilbert]

8 hours ago, vaughan45 said:

I have built two cameo style layouts using Peco bullhead turnouts. The 1st (now sold) used the large radius type and these gave no problems with a wide range of small locos & wagons. The 2nd currently in build uses the medium radius type and I have experienced some gauge narrowing in the blade area, which affects a small amount of stock. I have not had any crossing / frog issues on either type thankfully.

 

To-date all my Bachmann LMS locos and Heljan class 11 are ok, but my Dapol / MR Sentinel has a tendency to 'lift off'. The wheelsets on a small number of Rapido wagons and some early Bachmann 'Blue Riband' range wagons have experienced difficulties. Where necessary they have been fitted with Gibson wheelsets which I use successfully on my kit built wagons.

Pretty much my experience. My large turnouts have had no issues.

Chris

[Captain Kernow]

I bought a Peco bullhead point when they first came out, just to see what they were like. I definitely did not like the unprototypical way they arranged the point timbers. I subsequently disposed of the point.

 

Since then, Rob has told me of his problems with them, so I decided not to buy one of the shorter radius ones for possible evaluation.

 

Instead, I have built a British Finetracks A5 point, which I can definitely recommend to anyone and a fraction of the price of a similar point kit from C&L (and seemingly less work to put it together as well).

 

I am slowly accumulating more point work for a new OO project, so will probably assemble another British Finetracks A5, to match the one that I've already built. I may make one or two from scratch as well, using my favoured copper clad sleepers, bullhead rail and cosmetic plastic (Exactoscale - C&L) chairs stuck on afterwards.

 

In the spirit of experimentation, I downloaded the template for a Peco short radius 'Y' point a few months ago and had a go at replicating it in copperclad:

 

It tested OK with a variety of smaller locos:

 

It's a bit too short radius for my new OO project, so I'll probably use it for something else that's lurking in the deeper recesses of my mind...

 

SMP also do a bullhead point kit, and although you have to file the rails yourself, the timbers come in the form of a complete, moulded plastic base. It's about 3' in radius, from memory, available from Marcway in Sheffield.

 

 

[NHY 581]

9 minutes ago, Captain Kernow said:

I bought a Peco bullhead point when they first came out, just to see what they were like. I definitely did not like the unprototypical way they arranged the point timbers. I subsequently disposed of the point.

 

Since then, Rob has told me of his problems with them, so I decided not to buy one of the shorter radius ones for possible evaluation.

 

Instead, I have built a British Finetracks A5 point, which I can definitely recommend to anyone and a fraction of the price of a similar point kit from C&L (and seemingly less work to put it together as well).

 

I am slowly accumulating more point work for a new OO project, so will probably assemble another British Finetracks A5, to match the one that I've already built. I may make one or two from scratch as well, using my favoured copper clad sleepers, bullhead rail and cosmetic plastic (Exactoscale - C&L) chairs stuck on afterwards.

 

In the spirit of experimentation, I downloaded the template for a Peco short radius 'Y' point a few months ago and had a go at replicating it in copperclad:

 

It tested OK with a variety of smaller locos:

 

It's a bit too short radius for my new OO project, so I'll probably use it for something else that's lurking in the deeper recesses of my mind...

 

SMP also do a bullhead point kit, and although you have to file the rails yourself, the timbers come in the form of a complete, moulded plastic base. It's about 3' in radius, from memory, available from Marcway in Sheffield.

 

 

 

Hi Tim, 

 

We have a few SMP/ Scaleway plastic point kits tucked away in the shop. I stumbled across them a while ago. I may well give one a go now I have time to tinker. 

 

Being "brought up" on Peco Medium radius etc, I'd be grateful if you or anyone else can  shed light on how A5 etc translates in comparison to Peco's Medium/ Large radius etc. Being the simple sheep I am, I struggle to put these into context. 

 

Rob

 

 

[Captain Kernow]

46 minutes ago, NHY 581 said:

Being "brought up" on Peco Medium radius etc, I'd be grateful if you or anyone else can  shed light on how A5 etc translates in comparison to Peco's Medium/ Large radius etc. Being the simple sheep I am, I struggle to put these into context. 

You have a PM, my dear fellow.

 

[2ManySpams]

On 13/06/2024 at 10:14, NHY 581 said:

 

Hi Tim, 

 

We have a few SMP/ Scaleway plastic point kits tucked away in the shop. I stumbled across them a while ago. I may well give one a go now I have time to tinker. 

 

Being "brought up" on Peco Medium radius etc, I'd be grateful if you or anyone else can  shed light on how A5 etc translates in comparison to Peco's Medium/ Large radius etc. Being the simple sheep I am, I struggle to put these into context. 

 

Rob

 

 

 

I looked at this a while back and produced a graphic using the templates in one of the layout design apps. It held the Peco library and the A5 B6 C8 etc types. I seem to remember something like a B6 being similar in length to a Peco medium but the geometry was totally different.

 

Peco all have the same diverge angle. You can make a crossover from a short and a long and the straight routes are parallel. That works if you do the same with a pairs of A B C lengths with the same numbers (B6-B6 or B6-C6). It doesn't work if you match turnouts with different numbers (B6-B8 or B6-C8) as the number is a diverge angle (6 is 1in6, 8 is 1in8) and the straight roads won't end up parallel. 

 

Sadly the graphics I did were lost in the server issues...

 

 

[Tortuga]

If it helps, Peco streamline medium radius points are 219mm long and the B6 points I’ve been plotting out on Templot are about 305mm long.  The ones I’ve plotted form crossovers with a 10’ spacing between track centres, so the length of a point to create the standard 6’ spacing would be slightly shorter, although still more than Peco’s 219mm.

Edited June 13 by Tortuga
Clarity

[Izzy]

22 hours ago, NHY 581 said:

We have a few SMP/ Scaleway plastic point kits tucked away in the shop. I stumbled across them a while ago. I may well give one a go now I have time to tinker. 

 

Being "brought up" on Peco Medium radius etc, I'd be grateful if you or anyone else can  shed light on how A5 etc translates in comparison to Peco's Medium/ Large radius etc. Being the simple sheep I am, I struggle to put these into context. 

 

Hi Rob,

 

If I remember correctly the SMP's were usually referred to as being ' 3' radius'. This was at the time the normal way of classifying them rather than by the now more usual method of their crossing angle  and point deflection when dealing with other than RTL types such as Peco.

 

I don't know if this will help but I have generated a few PDF's via Templot with A5 & B6, both hands. The distance between them is the standard 6' of 44.67mm. If you are able to print them out - I know that a lot of people don't have printers these days, then comparison with SMP/Peco will be possible.

A5's have a ruling radius of 23". B6's 34"

 

a5_lh_16.5mm.pdfa5_rh_16.5mm.pdfb6_lh_16.5mm.pdfb6_rh_16.5mm.pdf

 

An aspect to note is that with all these type of non-latching points you will need some means of holding the blades in position. This can simply be via such as DPDT slider switches or as you are trying motors then something like Tortoise/MP1's etc. My experience over the years is that solenoids are too harsh. even with over-centre stuff to hold them in place.

 

cheers,

 

Bob

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Captain Kernow]

6 minutes ago, Izzy said:

An aspect to note is that with all these type of non-latching points you will need some means of holding the blades in position. This can simply be via such as DPDT slider switches or as you are trying motors then something like Tortoise/MP1's etc. My experience over the years is that solenoids are too harsh. even with over-centre stuff to hold them in place.

Thanks for those templates, Bob, I think lots of folk will find them useful. I have certainly downloaded them!

 

In fairness, I never had any serious problems with the Seep type of solenoid point motor on 'Engine Wood' and 'Bleakhouse Road', other than the occasional unsoldered point blade (easily rectified, even at a show).

 

However, I have now progressed to Tortoises and Cobalts, which are more gentle and usually quieter.

 

[Izzy]

1 hour ago, Captain Kernow said:

In fairness, I never had any serious problems with the Seep type of solenoid point motor on 'Engine Wood' and 'Bleakhouse Road', other than the occasional unsoldered point blade (easily rectified, even at a show).

Hi Tim, 

Yes my experiences are coloured by the use of H&M’s in the mid ‘60’s, real sledgehammer to crack a nut jobs, but hugely reliable. These days I am of course quite settled on the use of my hacked servo type across all scales after decades of purely mechanical operation. 

 

I should point out the templates were simply/quickly done in Templot to 16.5mm RTR standard, whatever that is, so no refinement. There is a huge choice from which to pick. I only use it in the simplest way, but if you can master the basics then it opens up endless possibilities with regard to track design rather than being limited to using RTL. Of course making the track is another level of fun……..but very rewarding. 
 

Bob

[St Enodoc]

2 hours ago, Izzy said:

 

Hi Rob,

 

If I remember correctly the SMP's were usually referred to as being ' 3' radius'. This was at the time the normal way of classifying them rather than by the now more usual method of their crossing angle  and point deflection when dealing with other than RTL types such as Peco.

 

I don't know if this will help but I have generated a few PDF's via Templot with A5 & B6, both hands. The distance between them is the standard 6' of 44.67mm. If you are able to print them out - I know that a lot of people don't have printers these days, then comparison with SMP/Peco will be possible.

A5's have a ruling radius of 23". B6's 34"

 

a5_lh_16.5mm.pdf 249.18 kB · 9 downloads a5_rh_16.5mm.pdf 249.1 kB · 3 downloads b6_lh_16.5mm.pdf 444.91 kB · 3 downloads b6_rh_16.5mm.pdf 303.29 kB · 3 downloads

 

An aspect to note is that with all these type of non-latching points you will need some means of holding the blades in position. This can simply be via such as DPDT slider switches or as you are trying motors then something like Tortoise/MP1's etc. My experience over the years is that solenoids are too harsh. even with over-centre stuff to hold them in place.

 

cheers,

 

Bob

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If you build them as "layout" points, with constant radius between the end of the planing and the crossing, the radius will be bigger (e.g. about 30" for an A5). I think that's how C&L templates are drawn.

[Schooner]

Bit late to the party, apologies, but I've brought a bottle related-sounding issues with Peco Bullhead large-radius turnouts.

 

Some, but not all, locos seem to have trouble with gauge narrowing as they pass into the 'toe' (IIUC?!) of the turnouts, as the wheels meet the point blades. This presents as anything from a bit of a slow-down as friction increases, to an unsightly lurch to the loco coming to a standstill as it loses contact with the rails and/or stock departing the rails altogether.

 

It's a rubbish video, taken for other reasons, but watch the Well Tank through the pointwork:

(DC, driven by a venerable Gaugemaster GMC-DS, using the 'Speed' knob, not the 'Brake')

 

This particular Well Tank went back to the shop for other reasons; but its replacement behaves likewise. Most frustrating are Rapido's products. I cannot run their stock at all, from wagons to Lion. 

 

Any thoughts/info/suggestions would be most gratefully received! Rip it all out and replace with British Finescale...?!

 

EDIT: Oh, and FWIW I've already ripped up and replaced the turnouts once. I had assumed that I'd damaged them with over-enthusiastic soldering, and that was why they were out of gauge. The brand new replacements (also Peco Bullhead) behaved identically, and I was blehdy careful with the iron! I've also tried just marmalading a track gauge in the turnouts and drenching in dilute PVA to try to get them to hold the 'wider' gauge. A temporary fix. Very very temporary.

Edited June 14 by Schooner