RMweb Premium St Enodoc Posted September 15, 2021 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted September 15, 2021 5 hours ago, Martin S-C said: Just a thought, your DCC set up John is wired, not wireless? I have seen and experienced more problems with wireless DCC systems. No, it is wireless. I don't think the problem is as a result of that. Problems with wireless systems are more usually due to bad positioning of the antenna. 3 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium St Enodoc Posted September 16, 2021 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted September 16, 2021 (edited) On 16/09/2021 at 05:56, 5BarVT said: Agree about keeping the cab bus away from track and accessory bus. Less sure about ‘straight’, but would add cross at right angles. Not being NCE but extrapolating from Loconet, I assume that the cab bus has to go to all controllers and mini panels. As a possible test methodology, could you reroute the cab bus aerially so that it is nowhere near anything dirty. Think cab bus = signalling, track bus = traction. There is a reason why we want to keep away from your nasty dirty electrons! :-) Paul. Yes, crossing at right angles is also good. Easy enough for the cab bus, less so for the power buses/feeders/droppers which obviously have to follow the configuration of the tracks. I like your idea about getting the cab bus right out of the way. I'll think about how practicable it would be to put it up in a conduit near the ceiling. I suspect that the answer will be "not very" but it's worth exploring. Edited September 18, 2021 by St Enodoc 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Harlequin Posted September 16, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 16, 2021 Have you considered using twisted pair wiring to counter the interference? If it works it would mean much less disruption to your wiring runs. https://sites.google.com/site/markgurries/home/dcc-general-best-practices/wiring-planing/twisted-pair-wiring 1 3 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold 5BarVT Posted September 16, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 16, 2021 3 hours ago, Harlequin said: Have you considered using twisted pair wiring to counter the interference? If it works it would mean much less disruption to your wiring runs. https://sites.google.com/site/markgurries/home/dcc-general-best-practices/wiring-planing/twisted-pair-wiring Had forgotten about that aspect, ‘cos I’ve done that religiously on my track bus. Digitrax have a thing about their loconet not being twisted because that alters the characteristics of the transmission line, I don’t know about power cab. So on Heath Town I’ve relied upon twisting the DCC bus to reduce the radiated interference. Interesting point in Mark Gurries page about not twisting after train detection: I haven’t had a problem with false detection even though I’ve twisted. Thus far my max distance is probably c.1.5m. Next stage has some track sections 9m long, be interesting to see what happens there. Paul. 1 4 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Stubby47 Posted September 16, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 16, 2021 I often twist two cables together, mainly to keep the damn things neat & tidy, but haven't noticed any degradation (or improvement) over non-twisted wiring. Should I be concerned ? 4 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold 5BarVT Posted September 16, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 16, 2021 4 hours ago, St Enodoc said: I like your idea about getting the cab bus right out of the way. I'll think about how practicable it would be to put it up in a conduit near the ceiling. I suspect that the answer will be "not very" but it's worth exploring. I was thinking about a temporary lash up (sky hooks, bamboo pole, etc.) just to see if the problem went away before committing to something time consuming. From reading the NCE page on cabling, it looks like your OK using 3rd party cables as long as it’s not the pro cab your using. In the UK, 6p4c RJ11 type cables are very cheap got from the right source. Paul. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold 5BarVT Posted September 16, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 16, 2021 2 minutes ago, Stubby47 said: I often twist two cables together, mainly to keep the damn things neat & tidy, but haven't noticed any degradation (or improvement) over non-twisted wiring. Should I be concerned ? On Trelothen, no! Distances are far too short to worry. Neat and tidy is the secondary reason why I twist droppers together - it makes it so much easier to see where they go. Paul. 4 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium St Enodoc Posted September 16, 2021 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted September 16, 2021 4 hours ago, Harlequin said: Have you considered using twisted pair wiring to counter the interference? If it works it would mean much less disruption to your wiring runs. https://sites.google.com/site/markgurries/home/dcc-general-best-practices/wiring-planing/twisted-pair-wiring I twist the power buses (track and accessory) as recommended. The cab bus, a 4-way flat cable, isn't twisted deliberately but I'm sure it has a few unintentional twists along the way. If the problem comes back, I could add more twists. 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold innocentman Posted September 16, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 16, 2021 Intersting topic on twisting cables. I should point out that twisting cables will not help in any way. The principle of twisted pair relates to a 2-conductor system which form a circuit, and are intentionally twisted together. In data transmissions this is done so that any unwanted Electro Magnetic influence affecting the cable is induced onto both conductors in the same circuit equally. The signal reciever uses an differential amplifier or filter which then only lets through intended signal and cancels out the interferance. Twisting multiple cables together of differnt systems is only likley to compound the problem as they are more likly to impart an unwanted signal on another cable. Regards Andy 2 1 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold 5BarVT Posted September 16, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 16, 2021 2 minutes ago, innocentman said: Intersting topic on twisting cables. I should point out that twisting cables will not help in any way. The principle of twisted pair relates to a 2-conductor system which form a circuit, and are intentionally twisted together. In data transmissions this is done so that any unwanted Electro Magnetic influence affecting the cable is induced onto both conductors in the same circuit equally. The signal reciever uses an differential amplifier or filter which then only lets through intended signal and cancels out the interferance. Twisting multiple cables together of differnt systems is only likley to compound the problem as they are more likly to impart an unwanted signal on another cable. Regards Andy TERMINOLOGY WARNING !!!! I don’t think anyone is suggesting twisting cables from different systems round each other (I certainly hope not) as that will increase interference (cross talk) simply by making them closer together, exactly as you warn against. What I’m doing is twisting conductors together (sometimes by default in the mains cable I use). The way that reduces ‘transmitted’ interference is that the current goes out and comes back in much the same place so that one conductor generates the opposite field to the other. In effect, it’s to try to stop the single turn transformer effect. As far as I am aware, it doesn’t rely on differential inputs. Paul. 4 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium St Enodoc Posted September 16, 2021 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted September 16, 2021 1 hour ago, innocentman said: Intersting topic on twisting cables. I should point out that twisting cables will not help in any way. The principle of twisted pair relates to a 2-conductor system which form a circuit, and are intentionally twisted together. In data transmissions this is done so that any unwanted Electro Magnetic influence affecting the cable is induced onto both conductors in the same circuit equally. The signal reciever uses an differential amplifier or filter which then only lets through intended signal and cancels out the interferance. Twisting multiple cables together of differnt systems is only likley to compound the problem as they are more likly to impart an unwanted signal on another cable. Regards Andy 45 minutes ago, 5BarVT said: TERMINOLOGY WARNING !!!! I don’t think anyone is suggesting twisting cables from different systems round each other (I certainly hope not) as that will increase interference (cross talk) simply by making them closer together, exactly as you warn against. What I’m doing is twisting conductors together (sometimes by default in the mains cable I use). The way that reduces ‘transmitted’ interference is that the current goes out and comes back in much the same place so that one conductor generates the opposite field to the other. In effect, it’s to try to stop the single turn transformer effect. As far as I am aware, it doesn’t rely on differential inputs. Paul. Thanks Andy and Paul. At the moment I only twist the power bus CONDUCTORS together, as recommended by Mark Gurries (per the link above) and others. Following Paul's earlier post, I was considering twisting the cab bus CABLES but not around any other cables or conductors. In the light of the above I'll stick where I am. Thanks. 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Clive Mortimore Posted September 16, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 16, 2021 2 hours ago, Stubby47 said: Should I be concerned ? If you want to be. 1 1 1 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Barry O Posted September 16, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 16, 2021 Just keep any bus wires away from any fluorescent light tubes.... Baz 1 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post bgman Posted September 16, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted September 16, 2021 There's lots of nice Bus wires here and they didn't seem to cause any problems ! Happy days 8 1 3 10 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Chamby Posted September 16, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 16, 2021 14 hours ago, St Enodoc said: Yes, crossing at right angles is also good. Easy enough for the cab bus, less so for the poor buses/feeders/droppers which obviously have to follow the configuration of the tracks. I like your idea about getting the cab bus right out of the way. I'll think about how practicable it would be to put it up in a conduit near the ceiling. I suspect that the answer will be "not very" but it's worth exploring. I’m imagining all those droppers from a ceiling mounted bus, down to every point and signal... think it might get a bit messy? 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold 5BarVT Posted September 16, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 16, 2021 57 minutes ago, Chamby said: I’m imagining all those droppers from a ceiling mounted bus, down to every point and signal... think it might get a bit messy? Would they be droppers though? Risers surely! Paul. 1 1 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium St Enodoc Posted September 16, 2021 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted September 16, 2021 5 hours ago, Chamby said: I’m imagining all those droppers from a ceiling mounted bus, down to every point and signal... think it might get a bit messy? 4 hours ago, 5BarVT said: Would they be droppers though? Risers surely! Paul. Neither - we were talking about the cab bus, not the track or accessory bus. Anyway, the point is moot as I've decided not to do it! 1 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Popular Post St Enodoc Posted September 17, 2021 Author RMweb Premium Popular Post Share Posted September 17, 2021 (edited) Some odds and ends today. First I cut away the plastic sleepers at the Treloggan Junction Loop safety (trap) points and replaced them with copperclad timbers . While the glue was drying, I started the front fence at Polperran. I used the piece of MDF that previously formed the backscene, as it was wider than the other odd strips I had. With just a little trimming it now reaches from the bottom of the L-girder to 13mm above the cork, the same as the Paddington and Penzance fences. I fitted a narrower strip in its place as a replacement temporary backscene. I also did some preparatory work for fitting the EB1 circuit breaker and its remote LED, which I can finish off tomorrow. I then finished the safety points by soldering the plain rail to the new timbers, using a Tracksetta to align it, after which I soldered the other rail and the dummy blade in place. Finally I gapped the new timbers. The safety points are now ready for painting, which I'll do as I work round progressively from St Enodoc. Edited June 29, 2022 by St Enodoc images restored 25 1 1 8 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Barry O Posted September 17, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 17, 2021 Roll on my next visit!! Baz 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium St Enodoc Posted September 17, 2021 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted September 17, 2021 2 hours ago, Barry O said: Roll on my next visit!! Baz Roll on our next running session (which should have been tomorrow)! 7 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgman Posted September 17, 2021 Share Posted September 17, 2021 3 hours ago, Barry O said: Roll on my next visit!! Baz Would that be a bacon or sausage one ? 2 1 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandhole Posted September 17, 2021 Share Posted September 17, 2021 41 minutes ago, bgman said: Would that be a bacon or sausage one ? Bacon and egg bap from the cafe on Oxenhope Station. That is the best. Fresh cooked with fresh baps each day. I'll get my coat, Regards, Chris. 4 2 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Clive Mortimore Posted September 17, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 17, 2021 6 hours ago, St Enodoc said: Some odds and ends today. First I cut away the plastic sleepers at the Treloggan Junction Loop safety (trap) points and replaced them with copperclad timbers . While the glue was drying, I started the front fence at Polperran. I used the piece of MDF that previously formed the backscene, as it was wider than the other odd strips I had. With just a little trimming it now reaches from the bottom of the L-girder to 13mm above the cork, the same as the Paddington and Penzance fences. I fitted a narrower strip in its place as a replacement temporary backscene. I also did some preparatory work for fitting the EB1 circuit breaker and its remote LED, which I can finish off tomorrow. I then finished the safety points by soldering the plain rail to the new timbers, using a Tracksetta to align it, after which I soldered the other rail and the dummy blade in place. Finally I gapped the new timbers. The safety points are now ready for painting, which I'll do as I work round progressively from St Enodoc. Not working traps? 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted September 17, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 17, 2021 5 minutes ago, Clive Mortimore said: Not working traps? Very sensible - working trap points cause derailments (yes I know they are meant to but the HMRI took against them in the 1980s because they were causing far too many derailments, of passenger trains). 1 7 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin S-C Posted September 17, 2021 Share Posted September 17, 2021 15 hours ago, St Enodoc said: Anyway, the point is moot as I've decided not to do it! Damn... and the potential for more groan-button jokes was just getting started. 2 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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