Forester Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 And reminds me of an interesting comment made at my RAF medical, many years ago, when questioned about smoking, that moderate-to-heavy smoking (which wasn't uncommon in steam days) could make ones colour perception unstable and subject to change over timescales as short as a couple of weeks. Just one of the reasons I doubt that any shade can be claimed to be right, wrong or even consistent on anything where the paint had been mixed on-site. There is ample anecdotal evidence that accurate weighing-out of ingredients was a less-than-universal practice among those doing the mixing. When dealing with memorised proportions, e.g. "three scoops of that, one of this and two-and-a-bit of the other", the size of the bit is likely to wander. If, also, one pigment happened to be running low, it is easy to envisage a foreman saying, "go a bit easy on that, lad, we don't get any more until next week". Result: the loco painted today won't be exactly the same colour as its classmate, painted a month ago. IMHO, the only certain outcome is uncertainty; all the more so if the paint didn't always get mixed by the same man. John What kind of smoking-induced fantasy is this? Did you ever get to see the Swindon paintshop? Did they mix up a fresh bucket of paint every time they fixed a lamp bracket on or something? It was a production line. They came out looking absolutely pristine and in exactly the same colour. The paint mixing was a professional as everything else they did in the works! This colour-denial thing really has to stop. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium John Isherwood Posted August 16, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 16, 2018 This colour-denial thing really has to stop. I know someone who would call it "Fake news" ! Regards, John Isherwood. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stanley Melrose Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 Fake hues? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 Yup, we can see why armchair pundits never get their letters anywhere near the printed page. They would only serve to tell active modellers that they are wasting their time because no one really knows what the real railway colours looked like and so nothing really matters!!! Forums are places for discussion, but to attempt to discredit over half a Century's researches by people who really did know what they were talking about is par for the course on RMweb. I always look at their profile when a gassing type hits the keyboard, and guess what....Hardly any of them show any building, painting or modelling tendencies... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold toboldlygo Posted August 16, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 16, 2018 To add to which it should never be forgotten that colour is solely an artefact of our brain. It has no absolute physical existence, which was pointedly brought home to me in the sixties when I had to learn that for physics O level examination passing purposes the Sodium 'D' lines were to be described as 'yellow', even though to me they are clearly orange. (Took me years to get to the bottom of that, and finally the knowledge that I am a divergent trichromat.) This condition is relatively common in males, along with the better known trouble of red/green discrimination. As such any psycho-active substance has the potential to alter colour perception, see 'psychedelia'. Ingest 'substances' including the legal narcotics and prescription drugs, and your perception may change (beer goggles anyone?). No guarantee, some are affected, others will not be, and the effect may not be consistent subject to subject. Many of the solvents once common to commercial degreasing and spray painting operations are psycho-active, just adding to the stew in the days past when minimising exposure was not taken too seriously... So it doesn't do to get too categorical about the accuracy of colour rendition as it's personal to your brain. For example, I have little trouble with Hornby's Brunswick green, as I see all colours a little 'warmer' (less blue) than the male population average. As for young women. I once had the joyful project of looking for tetrachromats. Very, very useful people for some applications as they see into the ultraviolet. Typically this rare capability is found in young women, very rare in males. They see more. Maybe that nice girl you like the look of but she won't give you the time of day can see something she doesn't like... The last bit sounds like a plot point from one of the X-Men films. You're not the real life Professor X are you? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted August 16, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 16, 2018 What kind of smoking-induced fantasy is this? Did you ever get to see the Swindon paintshop? Did they mix up a fresh bucket of paint every time they fixed a lamp bracket on or something? It was a production line. They came out looking absolutely pristine and in exactly the same colour. The paint mixing was a professional as everything else they did in the works! This colour-denial thing really has to stop. Somebody who got to see 'the Swindon (loco) paintshop' would by now be well over a century old as it was closed by Churchward over 100 years ago as part of his economy drive and drive to get engines out of works more quickly. Subsequently engines and tenders were painted in the shops where they were built/overhauled. However the Carriage Works paintshop was still going strong in the early 1960s. Swindon's carriage painting seems to have been pretty good, the same could not be said for engines and by BR times it was restricted to a single undercoat plus a final coat although presumably a varnish/sealant was also applied on lined engines if not on lesser classes. If you wanted a good paintshop at a Western works the place to go was Caerphilly, which kepyt its separate paintshop right to the end. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium John Isherwood Posted August 16, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 16, 2018 (edited) Swindon's carriage painting seems to have been pretty good, the same could not be said for engines and by BR times it was restricted to a single undercoat plus a final coat although presumably a varnish/sealant was also applied on lined engines if not on lesser classes. So much for what the specification prescribed ! As has been said elsewhere more than once; what the painting spec. called for, and what came out of the works were different things entirely. Quoting the spec. and providing a photo are, similarly, far from carrying the same evidential weight. Regards, John Isherwood. Edited August 16, 2018 by cctransuk 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold tomparryharry Posted August 16, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 16, 2018 Somebody who got to see 'the Swindon (loco) paintshop' would by now be well over a century old as it was closed by Churchward over 100 years ago as part of his economy drive and drive to get engines out of works more quickly. Subsequently engines and tenders were painted in the shops where they were built/overhauled. However the Carriage Works paintshop was still going strong in the early 1960s. Swindon's carriage painting seems to have been pretty good, the same could not be said for engines and by BR times it was restricted to a single undercoat plus a final coat although presumably a varnish/sealant was also applied on lined engines if not on lesser classes. If you wanted a good paintshop at a Western works the place to go was Caerphilly, which kepyt its separate paintshop right to the end. A gentleman by the name of Rufus Stephens, as I recall. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 (edited) It is documented in a 1930's 'Railway Magazine' that the GWR was being parsimonious with its green and had been thinning it too much to make it go further. It started to go khaki or blackening after a short time in traffic and shareholders were doing the equivalent of asking question in the house. One would think the Western learned from this. Also, I wonder what Riddles would have said had he been made aware of Swindons tactics in BR days. After all, it was Swindon that wanted to re-adopt green for everything. I would have told the works that if it cant do the job properly, then revert to LNWR livery! Edited August 16, 2018 by coachmann 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted August 17, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 17, 2018 It is documented in a 1930's 'Railway Magazine' that the GWR was being parsimonious with its green and had been thinning it too much to make it go further. It started to go khaki or blackening after a short time in traffic and shareholders were doing the equivalent of asking question in the house. One would think the Western learned from this. Also, I wonder what Riddles would have said had he been made aware of Swindons tactics in BR days. After all, it was Swindon that wanted to re-adopt green for everything. I would have told the works that if it cant do the job properly, then revert to LNWR livery! I don't think it made much difference post-war Larry because with some notable exceptions various sheds were so short of cleaners the engines in green soon became virtually indistinguishable from what had been painted black! Oddly I think the Swindon built and painted diesels did a bit better as they got a coat of a red metal preservative paint (no idea what sort) before the green undercoat went on - it always looked a bit darker on the diesel bodies than it did on boiler sheathing and cab side sheets but that might have been down the size of area seen in one plane. So much for what the specification prescribed ! As has been said elsewhere more than once; what the painting spec. called for, and what came out of the works were different things entirely. Quoting the spec. and providing a photo are, similarly, far from carrying the same evidential weight. Regards, John Isherwood. Perhaps you could explain how it differed from the spec because as far as I know it didn't - the use of two coats was consistent Swindon practice in later BR days which suggests that at least teh works management were satisfied the job was being done correctly. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSpencer Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 It is documented in a 1930's 'Railway Magazine' that the GWR was being parsimonious with its green and had been thinning it too much to make it go further. It started to go khaki ........................! Finally, you have just solved the mystery as to why Wrenn painted some locos in khaki. It was intended for the Castles but the paint tin got mixed up with the West Countries. Or maybe they too were thinning out their paint. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted August 17, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 17, 2018 I don't think it made much difference post-war Larry because with some notable exceptions various sheds were so short of cleaners the engines in green soon became virtually indistinguishable from what had been painted black! Oddly I think the Swindon built and painted diesels did a bit better as they got a coat of a red metal preservative paint (no idea what sort) before the green undercoat went on - it always looked a bit darker on the diesel bodies than it did on boiler sheathing and cab side sheets but that might have been down the size of area seen in one plane. Perhaps you could explain how it differed from the spec because as far as I know it didn't - the use of two coats was consistent Swindon practice in later BR days which suggests that at least teh works management were satisfied the job was being done correctly. All of which certainly explains why the finish on preserved ex-GW engines in BR lined green is so much better than I remember even freshly cleaned ones looking when in service. I was always curious why the green on the Western's Standard Fives that had been painted at Eastleigh looked deeper and richer than locos that had come out of Swindon..... John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 The last bit sounds like a plot point from one of the X-Men films. You're not the real life Professor X are you? Can't be, never heard of anyone of that name. Finding people with different visual capability is actually quite straightforward. You simply advertise with a message that only they can see. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bash St Plug Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 Samples of lining out on preserved Earl of Mount Edgcombe. 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bike2steam Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 Strange how the cab, tender and splashers look lighter than the boiler and firebox, maybe I need to go to Specsavers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold tomparryharry Posted August 17, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 17, 2018 (edited) 5043.jpg5043-2.JPG Samples of lining out on preserved Earl of Mount Edgcombe. Subject to the colour capture & reproduction, but I can tell the difference between the two greens on Earl of Mount Edgecumbe. The cabside is more Chrome green, with the tenderside with more blue. Of course, other people will have different views. Happy squinting! Ian. Edited August 17, 2018 by tomparryharry Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butler Henderson Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 (edited) I have mentioned this before but some years ago I found myself in the reception of Williamsons Paints at Ripon. On the wall was a panel full of different shades of green all with a small description of GW Green for a specified preservation group/railway. Transpired they had been asked to make the paint but then the next purchaser said it was wrong so they had altered for them then the next purchaser thereafter said it was wrong, and so on. Edited August 17, 2018 by Butler Henderson Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Siberian Snooper Posted August 17, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 17, 2018 The variation may be down to different preparation, as I would expect each area to be done at differing times. I would expect that the tender was done separately, followed by the cab and splashers etc. followed by the boiler cladding after the boiler had completed it's steam test and initial bedding in, in case it had to be removed due to teething problems. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 Fkcin' hell, get me out of here.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold adb968008 Posted August 17, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 17, 2018 (edited) Cat.. pidgeons.... Turns out Hornby was right, GW locos are more faded than BR locos... https://www.flickr.com/photos/deltrems/2747020016/in/pool-1498782@N24 (Not my picture, but I was on that train). I could have swore that manor got lighter every weekend it was used. I put it down to the polluting Lancashire weather, 35005 had only just arrived, the Manor had been around a while. It must have faded in the rain. :-) Fkcin' hell, get me out of here....No one leaves the KGB, not even those being tortured. *7828 was painted in an oddest shade of BR Green for several years. Edited August 17, 2018 by adb968008 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
APOLLO Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 This looks OK for GW loco's !! Brit15 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butler Henderson Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 (edited) How accurate was the GW green used on Airifx locos as Tamiya Japanese Army Green is a match to that. Edited August 17, 2018 by Butler Henderson Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forester Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 The variation may be down to different preparation, as I would expect each area to be done at differing times. I would expect that the tender was done separately, followed by the cab and splashers etc. followed by the boiler cladding after the boiler had completed it's steam test and initial bedding in, in case it had to be removed due to teething problems. At least the steam test will allow time to dig for some more zinc chromate and grind the last of the titanium dioxide while the painter experiments with his palette knife to get the right shade for his next brush strokes. Perhaps a little bluer on the lower half of the boiler where it doesn't catch the light from the sky? Where's the lapis lazuli ... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robmcg Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 (edited) Some honest photos from me of my just-arrived from Hattons , 4709, pristine Canon camera at programme-auto 80asa all default settings 80% natural cloudy bright window light, 20% tungsten reading lamp approx untouched but for cropping and re-sizing The model arrived in good order, except front axle need to be clipped back into pony truck.( see edit 2 ) Which was the limit of my fumbling skills. brake hose fell off tender might try to refit it when feeling brave. In any event I think the colours are ok, I think this whole thing has become quite weird and was started by some unflattering shop/studio pics and unfortunate photography by Heljan and shops, and hasn't been helped by some less-than-complimentary lighting by cameras under artificial lighting. As to fragility of the model, I also received a weathered 4705 on behalf of my brother who is away in Australia for a fortnight and cannot open it, it being his model, but it looks undamaged too. My 4709 seemed quite a stiff runner for a few wheel revs and has freed-up nicely, quiet and smooth on ,my short test track. I am greatly impressed, and I like the fine flanges compared to many other RTR 00 models. cheers p.s. please note my photos here were NOT de-saturated, the camera is a Canon point-and-shoot SX150 14.1MP , I have a Canon EOS-M which I also use which gives quite different colour effects on the same settings, possibly a different program and lens of course are different. edit 2; just found injector pipe from under cab on driver's side, it was on the tile floor, presumably was loose in packaging. I'm pleased it wasn't lost! May I humbly suggest that all aspects of opening this model are best done over a clean surface? Edited August 17, 2018 by robmcg 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robmcg Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 (edited) One more for luck, I think this pic represents the colour best in what might be termed typical domestic daylight. again, all auto program settings on a Canon SX150 point-and-shoot camera, re-sized downwards, colours all at default. Cheers edit Here finally two pics with a Canon EOS-M and kit lens (18-55mm) at approx 35mm, with colours changed to a more-blue range and slightly de-saturated by Picasa photo editing to varying degrees.. This more expensive camera gives in this light by default a more yellow light, perhaps accurately showing the tungsten effect, since the daylight from an hour ago had faded somewhat into rainclouds, and the artificial light used in shops ads and also by many who have contributed here gave what was in my opinion a false idea of how these models look in daylight. I think it shows a great model, including the bits fallen-off so far, to be re-attached, in sympathetic light, with photography which is more like what my eye sees. There has been no editing of the detail of the model, only lighting and background and normal? colour optimisation. It shows how important cameras, lighting and digital editing (even the basic camera does that by default) can be. Above all it shows what a GREAT model this is, and I look forward to the day when doubters buy one, no, several, numberplates notwithstanding. edit 2; For the photographic purists out there, this was taken later in the day with a lot more natural light. It is completely unedited but for cropping and re-sizing. Thus it represents what some will call a 'true' reproduction of Heljan's BR green, and lining.. which of course is variable with lighting and camera, and the part of the picture selected for exposure and focus settings, in this case an average over the mid-boiler area.. Canon EOS-M with 15-55 kit lens at approx 35mm, ISO100, aperture-priority, f29 and 15 secs exposure, 90% indirect natural sunlight, of which about 50% was rear 3/4 angled from adjacent window.. The EOS-M is loosely called a 'half frame' camera where the CMOS sensor is approx half the area of an old 35mm film camera's negative, the Canon EOS-M is thus smaller, some would say inferior to the 'full frame' digital cameras. Most point and shoot cameras have smaller sensors again. I like the half-frame format myself, small camera, interchangeable lenses, good resolution, and so on, but I'm no expert. At risk of boring everyone and causing Andy no end of grief with complaints from readers, here is a mildly tuned picture of the last one above. I have changed saturation a little here and there and tided the background. Who can say this is not a good model with a few minor flaws? will leave everyone alone now. Cheers. p.s. it would have been good if Heljan had invested a very few quid in a good photo of this model when it first arrived in the country? Edited August 18, 2018 by robmcg 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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