Hornby EXETER

[robmcg]

I'm highly sceptical of promises and delivery dates. It's not just compatibility of injection moulding machines, it's painting and assembly costs.

 

I'll stick my neck out and suggest that the LSWR M7 is SK-made, that no other factory will be producing Bulleid Light Pacifics or SR M7s before mid-late 2015 if at all because the cost of setting up the tools would be high, production expensive, and board and management of Hornby PLC are currently generating cash as fast as possible, possibly using the last production from the SK factory for such as the LSWR M7 and the two Britannias.

 

I could be entirely wrong, of course....

[robmcg]

Also I think Kernows and Hattons and DJM are NOT looking at Hornby as a *certain* competitor in the medium term. I note DJ has expressed concern about wage/cost inflation in China. Hornby have already tried to address this with simpler designs, some very successful (Mk1s) and sometimes with mixed success.

 

I think a re-structure of Hornby is probable, if not a buy-out, UNLESS they produce very good income and believable sales projections by next March. Good Christmas sales will have to be backed up by a profitable production and marketing model. But I am thinking only about railway stuff, so again it might be the other things they sell which bring better profits....

[phil gollin]

.

 

Two things :

 

A:-  "......... 3. We received what we believed initially to be a part shipment 14.11.14 which we flew in to reduce the wait time ......."

     

       This does NOT make sense.   Surely to get the 390 Exeters air freighted they must have talked to the factory (OR freight forwarding company) and THEY would have known there were no more to come (otherwise why settle on 390 ?)   Anyone asking about the "390" would automatically want to know about the balance of the order as the freight cost of those items would have to be adjusted downwards.

 

( Of course, the dates quoted SEEM to contradict other dates bandied around for end of production at Sanda Kan  -  But who am I to double guess ? )

 

 

B:-   I must admit to NOT picking up on the fact that "R4537 SR Unconverted Open 3rd Class Coach" was in the batch of missing items ?     

 

.

[bacon butty]

Injection mould tools can easily be moved from one machine to another - they are pretty standard for clamping holes. Generally at most you may have to fit an adaptor to the locating ring on the fixed half (which on a tool for a loco would be the top of the roof). The ejection system may need slightly changing on the moving half - again not much work. If it has spring return you probably wouldn't need to touch it but if it had a pull back you may need to fit a readily available adaptor.

The longest job is setting them up with how much plastic you pack into them and running temperatures - they all have water going through them at different temperatures etc. even this should be done in an hour or so.

If you had diecast moulding going on I would suspect it would be done in a completely different part of the factory to avoid the dust and dirt that is created. We do not know what else is made buy these moulders but it is good practice to segregate these things.

Compression moulding is always segregated as well from injection moulded to avoid the dust issues.

 

As far as the short shipment of Exeter goes it does puzzle me why they ever thought that there could be more on the way - the person who tracks the purchase orders should have been told. They haven't said how many short they were. It would have been good if they could have said why an experienced company who had dealt with Hornby for a long time thought it was ok to send an unusual amount. Was there a mix up with paper work or more likely they have scrapped them at some point and not bothered remoulding the short fall.

Also how much short are they on the other items - is it a little or a lot?

 

At least they have said sorry - but looking at the information given there will be more issues to come as there are obviously control issues regarding communication, quality, purchasing and probably accountancy.

 

The clues are all there and after spending nearly thirty years working in manufacturing it's obvious.

[andyman7]

Not much sign of ebay scalping so far. In fact one 'Exeter' was listed by a private seller at £99 or best offer late last night. Mind you, it looks like it was only for sale very briefly before being snapped up, but that's a bargain in anyone's eyes!  

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Br-4-6-2-034-Exeter-034-West-Country-Class-Br-Green-R3115-/221616528397?pt=UK_Trains_Railway_Models&hash=item33995fdc0d&nma=true&si=9BWl2zk39CrjvYzKNac9PfyNjJs%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

[Ian Hargrave]

Only words.

 

How about compensation? Vouchers for those who missed out? Extra discounts for retailers who have disappointed customers to cope with?

 

Then we could be sure they listened.

 

 

Thought not.

Without words we are nothing.Compensation? A precarious financial position precludes that and in any case would set a dangerous precedent.

 

I am the first to criticise but this is surely not the occasion for cynicism. Be realistic.

[The Stationmaster]

All the mention of Sanda Kan (Kader) manufacture raises an interesting point. 'Exeter' apparently came from them but according to information from an impeccable source at Warley over the weekend SK haven't manufactured anything for Hornby since March and according to Hornby the 'clean break' for all tools and stock took place in July.

 

It is now November and airfreight from China - in terms of actual flying time - is basically an overnight trip then plus Customs Clearance etc

[Andy Hayter]

Which points Mike, to a scenario similar to the one I speculated about earlier, where parts are made in SK and perhaps sub assemblies completed, but final finishing of the models is somewhere else in the Kader empire.

 

When a model is put on the production units, all raw material parts will have been ordered and probably be in stock and this would include the packaging and probably pre-printed labels with SK on them.

[APOLLO]

It's a bit more complicated than just injection mouldings producing a loco.

 

There's the motor & gears to source, metal chassis, wheels (Boxpok for Exeter), axles, nuts bolts screws and metal stampings (valve gear etc), packaging etc  - a myriad of bits all of which have to be immediately on hand to assemble the loco. Also there are probably third party suppliers involved (motors, electronic bits) that will need addressing and coordinating.

 

Quite a logistics job and a nightmare if you are transferring production from one factory to (a probable competitors) factory god knows how many miles away. There may also be "bad feelings" amongst management & workers in many, many directions (some trans-global) to contend with which will help matters not one bit. Doing all of the above for Hornby's many products, along with a cash flow problem and us lot bitching & whining, who would want to be a MD at Hornby ?.

 

Brit15

[JSpencer]

Does anyone own an Exeter and can confirm that SK was the manufacturer of the loco?

 

If they are:

Delay could have been down to confusion in moving tooling, final production etc in July. For example if they asked SK to dispatch to several other factories, a mix up can easily occur. If they dispatch to just one place, then time will be needed to sort it all out and move things around.

 

If SK did not make them: the problem is then with one of the new suppliers.

[3rd Rail Exile]

Does anyone own an Exeter and can confirm that SK was the manufacturer of the loco?

 

If they are:

Delay could have been down to confusion in moving tooling, final production etc in July. For example if they asked SK to dispatch to several other factories, a mix up can easily occur. If they dispatch to just one place, then time will be needed to sort it all out and move things around.

 

If SK did not make them: the problem is then with one of the new suppliers.

 

Yes - see my post #179 in this thread...

 

Code is SK101-P89880 R3115-37-852

 

Regards,

 

3rd Rail Exile

[The Stationmaster]

 

Quite a logistics job and a nightmare if you are transferring production from one factory to (a probable competitors) factory god knows how many miles away. There may also be "bad feelings" amongst management & workers in many, many directions (some trans-global) to contend with which will help matters not one bit. Doing all of the above for Hornby's many products, along with a cash flow problem and us lot bitching & whining, who would want to be a MD at Hornby ?.

 

Brit15

Just as an amusing aside - recently someone in a fairly senior position at Hornby looked at my profile on Linked In.  Now it might be because I had recently looked at his but I do wonder what thoughts passed through his mind when seeing that a couple of folk who have put comments/recommendations on my profile have commended me for my skills in logistics

[Andy Hayter]

It's a bit more complicated than just injection mouldings producing a loco.

 

There's the motor & gears to source, metal chassis, wheels (Boxpok for Exeter), axles, nuts bolts screws and metal stampings (valve gear etc), packaging etc  - a myriad of bits all of which have to be immediately on hand to assemble the loco. Also there are probably third party suppliers involved (motors, electronic bits) that will need addressing and coordinating.

 

Quite a logistics job and a nightmare if you are transferring production from one factory to (a probable competitors) factory god knows how many miles away. There may also be "bad feelings" amongst management & workers in many, many directions (some trans-global) to contend with which will help matters not one bit. Doing all of the above for Hornby's many products, along with a cash flow problem and us lot bitching & whining, who would want to be a MD at Hornby ?.

 

Brit15

 

 

You are of course absolutely correct, manufacture is far more than just moulding processes, but in this case we are looking at a reason why several models have not been made to the contract quantities.

 

Willy S wrote of a kingdom being lost for want of a horse shoe nail, but hundreds or thousands of model lost for want of a 16 BA bolt (well perhaps a few thousand)  - available from almost any model supplier?

Motors and wheels - freely available on the net.

Valve gear - crude stamping - unable to source? really??

Even the Boxpok wheels for Exeter seem to not be a supply problem for Hornby for their Jouef 141 R class models.  (and of course that would only explain Exeter and not Bittern and the other models sold short by Kader.)

Even assembly bottlenecks seem unlikely to be the common cause.

 

I admit to knowing little about the painting and printing processes, but it does seem unlikely to me that these would be such a bottleneck as to prevent supply of the full quantities. 

 

I remain therefore of the view that the problem lies in the basic production steps and the injection moulding step seems to be the one most vulnerable to production over several models.

[robmcg]

Does anyone own an Exeter and can confirm that SK was the manufacturer of the loco?

 

If they are:

Delay could have been down to confusion in moving tooling, final production etc in July. For example if they asked SK to dispatch to several other factories, a mix up can easily occur. If they dispatch to just one place, then time will be needed to sort it all out and move things around.

 

If SK did not make them: the problem is then with one of the new suppliers.

It really might have been possible for another factory to 'finish' or even assemble/paint SK-manufactured Bulleids but this would have been at the time of management changes in Hornby, the HK-based production co-ordinator may or may not have been involved. Would have been very messy contractually, but REF say they are very customer and result-focussed.... I have bought a new LSWR M7 from Hattons (in the mail) and will be interested in whether it is SK or REF or another maker's code on the box. The paint looks more like recent REF stuff to my eyes, but of course boxes could have SK on them even if they were painted and assembled elsewhere....

 

To give the Hornby rep credit the company might be trying very hard to get Bulleids into production with REF.

[brittannia]

Somebody certainly wanted Exeter £210 on E Bay, is  it really worth that ?

[Spannerman]

Somebody certainly wanted Exeter £210 on E Bay, is it really worth that ?

As we know things are worth what someone will pay.

It does seem madness though when Olivia's were offering them for £180!

Which also seemed a ridiculous amount.

 

Nik

[robmcg]

Somebody certainly wanted Exeter £210 on E Bay, is  it really worth that ?

The works grey 21C155 'Fighter Pilot' is well over £200 at Olivia's, and there were 500 of them made....

[Ravenser]

.

 

Two things :

 

A:-  "......... 3. We received what we believed initially to be a part shipment 14.11.14 which we flew in to reduce the wait time ......."

     

       This does NOT make sense.   Surely to get the 390 Exeters air freighted they must have talked to the factory (OR freight forwarding company) and THEY would have known there were no more to come (otherwise why settle on 390 ?)   Anyone asking about the "390" would automatically want to know about the balance of the order as the freight cost of those items would have to be adjusted downwards.

 

( Of course, the dates quoted SEEM to contradict other dates bandied around for end of production at Sanda Kan  -  But who am I to double guess ? )

 

 

B:-   I must admit to NOT picking up on the fact that "R4537 SR Unconverted Open 3rd Class Coach" was in the batch of missing items ?     

 

.

 

 

No and no:

 

Hornby's forwarder's agent in China would be speaking to the supplier(s) . Possibly the chain would start off with the supplier (ie SK) notifying the forwarder's Chiunes agents of 390 cartons xyz cbm /abc KGs to move. With luck quoting the R-number and the purchase order. There would be no reason for the supplier (SK) to tell the agent "but of course we aren't shipping the other 610 on this purchase order"

[bacon butty]

Hi Andy

 

I worked at a factory that did all sorts of high end plastic mouldings which included printing onto mouldings (both tampo and pad).

By far and away the biggest bottle necks and scrap was done in the printing process. This is down to how you set the moulding up on the printing machine and even in this day and age its largely done by rack of the eye. Literally I would suspect that when they need 1000 to make an order up they would mould at least 1050. You would then send any excess back to a grinding machine and reprocess them - which is easier than setting the mould tool back up.

What happens at times is that for whatever reason the set up doesn't work, this could be down to ink, machine malfunctions, operator doesn't know what he's doing, damaged plate etc. I did on occasion see mould tools going back in for these reasons. Seeing bags of hundreds of mouldings going to the bin can be eye watering. When you think by the time these are printed the are painted!! Arrgggh!!!

 

What makes me think of Hornby and the printing issue is related to the Great Gathering A4's - I can clearly remember that they came in with misaligned numbers on the front and the question was raised about trying to find one that was good... no chance with that as once they approve the first off they will all be done in one set up. Basically one wrong the whole batch wrong with alignment.

 

Hope this helps

 

Regards

 

Stuart

[Dunsignalling]

They don't cally it Ebay Madness for nuffin

A few years ago, a retailer who had commissioned some PO wagons, delighted in pointing out to his customers that they were changing hands via eBay for £20 despite the fact that he still had them in stock on his website for £7-50!

 

The words he used to describe the intellect of such buyers would not be permitted on this forum!

 

John

[AndrewC]

If you've ever wanted to get a look at what an actual production run looks like, best place is Rapido's newsletters. Here are a couple with good pics of the production process.

 

http://www.rapidotrains.com/rapidonews37.html

 

This one shows boxes of QC rejects. Heartbreaking: http://www.rapidotrains.com/rapidonews39.html As Stuart pointed out the printing is where the biggest bottleneck and problems occur.

[The Stationmaster]

You are of course absolutely correct, manufacture is far more than just moulding processes, but in this case we are looking at a reason why several models have not been made to the contract quantities.

 

Willy S wrote of a kingdom being lost for want of a horse shoe nail, but hundreds or thousands of model lost for want of a 16 BA bolt (well perhaps a few thousand)  - available from almost any model supplier?

Motors and wheels - freely available on the net.

Valve gear - crude stamping - unable to source? really??

Even the Boxpok wheels for Exeter seem to not be a supply problem for Hornby for their Jouef 141 R class models.  (and of course that would only explain Exeter and not Bittern and the other models sold short by Kader.)

Even assembly bottlenecks seem unlikely to be the common cause.

 

I admit to knowing little about the painting and printing processes, but it does seem unlikely to me that these would be such a bottleneck as to prevent supply of the full quantities. 

 

I remain therefore of the view that the problem lies in the basic production steps and the injection moulding step seems to be the one most vulnerable to production over several models.

But interestingly I have heard privately in the past of completed, fully decorated, UK outline bodies sitting in 'a Kader factory' otherwise incomplete.  No reason established but clearly something holding up final completion or assembly of the models.

 

As far as this matter is concerned I doubt we'll ever find out what happened as both (or more ) of the companies involved are ever likely to tell us.  The timing of last manufacture within Kader for Hornby suggests it could be something to do with the final withdrawal of the latter but odd that there wasn't a 'normal' run of 500 for some reason.  However what has happened has happened and as far as purchasers are concerned it won'y be put right until some more are made.

[JSpencer]

Doubtless, assembly of modern fine scale models requires skill.

 

Many of the Kader staff would have started back in the late 90s when models had fewer parts and more importantly, hardly any fine parts.

 

Over time that increased, but the people probably remained the same and were highly experimented.

They then left, and the skill set required for assembly was gone or crippled.

 

Imagine assembling 1000 locos with 300 plus parts, much fine piping, buffer details, hand rails etc etc.

All that assembled without glue marks etc.

 

Without the assembly staff, Kader would end up with lots of parts waiting assembly.

[Ian Hargrave]

R 3115 duly arrived.No visible difference between it and its earlier sisters.Performance ditto.The major improvements are the semi permanent loco-tender coupling and easier to use packaging. Nice.Will improve with application of fiddly bits and light weathering.

 You tend to forget what a cracking model this is...now well over a decade in production.

[Ian Abel]

R 3115 duly arrived.No visible difference between it and its earlier sisters.Performance ditto.The major improvements are the semi permanent loco-tender coupling and easier to use packaging. Nice.Will improve with application of fiddly bits and light weathering.

 You tend to forget what a cracking model this is...now well over a decade in production.

Very good to hear - and maybe I'll get one yet if there is some kind of secondary production run.

I'm certainly NOT prepared to go for one at over 200 quid as was demonstrated on eBay yesterday, can damned near get two alternative BB/MN/WCs for that price - have some vague thought in the back of my mind that maybe the purchaser was buying to attempt to resell for even more, declaring it "extremely rare" at some point?!?!? Surely that's unlikely though...