Hornby EXETER

[Ian Abel]

 

Which leads me back to my point earlier. Ignoring for the moment wider issues what should Hornby have done when 290 Exeters arrived. It's an insufficient number to fulfil all requests so now what.  Judging by the reaction perhaps dumping them all in the Channel and keeping quiet might have been the kindest thing :-)

Stu

Stu,

  Whilst I don't have any better ideas than yours (which certainly has some merit) and many other possibilities, I think the one glaring issue is still/simply that there were known pre-orders, and no matter how unevenly they would have been handled - I doubt I'd STILL have received mine since it was only placed in April - I'd feel a whole lot better knowing folks who placed a pre-order in good faith actually got one rather than the lucky, or however you want to describe them, folks who simply discovered or were told Hornby had them on their web site and managed to snap one up.

I'm glad some folks have them (though it's a pity some seem to want more than one, especially given the limited supply, but they are free to make that choice also, of course) rather than them not being available.

 

I'm more confused than ever as to why I should EVER pre-order if it means nothing. It's not even a placeholder/preference situation apparently, and certainly doesn't appear to help dictate the volume that should be made. I feel very bad for the retailers that have to go hat-in-hand and explain to far less informed folks than US that the pre-order has not been honored, but Joe Schmoe go one just for hearing from Hornby fortuitously and fumbling his way around their web page.

 

I'd like to get Okehampton when it comes out (IF?!?!?! - Hornby say 2015, but do I bother to believe them anyway!!), but what do I do, pre-order (though that doesn't seem to be an option at present) from a retailer, pre-order from Hornby (ALSO not an option at present) or the current choice, just hope the folks at Hornby can get their left and right hands to talk to each other and perhaps make/deliver enough that there's a reasonable chance of a few people buying them??

 

Whilst it might sound like sour grapes, I truly hope they manage to perpetrate the same face-plant that was the 2-BIL mentioned by "Belgian", and, if there seem to be plenty, I'll wait until I can get one at/around/below cost - I'm old enough I don't really care that much about the Hornby longevity, if I'm honest. I was hoping and expecting to show support for them with my loco pre-order but as they fouled that up, I'd love to get my next new red loco at a fire-sale at their expense - so there...

 

I've donned my hard hat now and headed for the trenches, although, if anyone wants to throw things, make it an Exeter, please

[robmcg]

As one, like Southern Electric, who came back to the model railway hobby after an absence of 35 years I am STILL enjoying the marvellous RTR models which are being manufactured, albeit sporadically now.

 

I have learned to put up with some people on RMweb who as well as being very talented modellers have some difficulty with people like me who are not inclined to do delicate modifications but just run and admire and enjoy and collect what are astonishingly fine pieces of small-run production.

 

There has always been a bit of 'Hornby reminds me of toys' in some of the serious modellers' posts, together with a preference for blue boxes, but conversely there are many like me who remember Hornby Dublo in pre-plastic days with great affection. A 'Bristol Castle' with a Ringfield motor was simply amazingly good and would go for a week at a scale 100mph! or something like that, I was only 9yrs old.

 

The debacle of Exeter and 'let down' retailers may be explained eventually.

 

The shortage of some models certainly brings good prices second-hand, Britannias at £180 on Ebay now (70013 'Oliver Cromwell') so perhaps there will some difficulty in buying exactly what you want, but there are heaps of stunning models new and second hand out there new or s/h and I for one am not complaining. And I bought an Exeter off Hornby direct...

 

As an example of the quality of new or at least recent models, which is what surprised me in 2004 when I returned to this hobby, here is a link to Hornby Britannia photo of mine, edited somewhat, but essentially a great RTR model. (Which as far as I know Hornby never did in factory-weathered form.

 

https://www.facebook.com/brsteamphotos/photos/pcb.388605191305152/388602621305409/?type=1&theater

[Andy Hayter]

 

Which leads me back to my point earlier. Ignoring for the moment wider issues what should Hornby have done when 290 Exeters arrived. It's an insufficient number to fulfil all requests so now what. 

Stu

 

 

As I posted some 10 odd pages ago, they should have declared Force Majeure on the supply of the 2 models in question and then followed the legally defined rules for distribution.  There would still have been many disappointed people, but at least Hornby could not be criticised for how they distributed the small stocks available.  Indeed had they done so it is more than likely that the blame would have fallen on Bachmann/Kader for failure to supply Hornby or for misleading Hornby regarding the numbers available.  So by not doing the right thing, Hornby lose twice - they get the blame for the way things are shared out and they are not able to put their competitor in the court of public opinion. 

[Combe Martin]

Refering to Southernelectic's post no 206 on here, yes I would expect Hornby to eventually produce more un-rebuilt Bullied Light Pacifics, though whether one would be Exeter or not well we'll all have to wait and see.  What I do understand is that it isn't quite as simple as giving the tools to a new factory and saying 'there they are get on with it'.  The tooling also has to fit the factory's equipment, so it probably cant be given to just any of the new suppliers, and then there are the factory's production slots to fit in with. 

[toboldlygo]

I personally think the reason, no one has heard from Hornby on the Exeter Triangle (so to speak). Is down to the fact that they are still trying to find out what happened (to the rest of the batch) and for legal reasons can't divulge what is going on... yet

[Andy Hayter]

So if Hornby have purchased all their tooling from Kader, there's no reason why - in theory - they cannot get one of the new factories to do another run of Exeter, given that there would appear to be enough demand for it?

 

 

 

The key word is theory.  In practice the moulds will probably only fit the machines that they were designed for - and this may be the reason why there is the shortfall.**

If Hornby's new suppliers do not have the same machines, the moulds will not fit.  It may be possible to make new registration plates to join the moulds to the new injection moulding machines - it may not.  The moulds may be too big to fit any of the new machines.  In the end it may be easier and cheaper to produce new moulds for the new machines.  A model will require several - maybe many moulds, and it only needs one not to fit and you have no model.

 

 

**  SPECULATION WARNING:  what follows is pure speculation based on the very little that we know - or think we know.

 

 

It could well be(almost certainly was) that the final run was done in the Sanda Kan factory prior to closure.  As we know the SK workers sat in and blocked movements in the Spring, so the unfinished models and their moulds could have been held up in the SK factory for many weeks.  This sit-in may have prevented the completion of the production run - which probably was scheduled as one of the last for the factory.  Once the sit-in had been broken, Kader recovered the parts and the moulds and took them to their new factory.  The mould(s) may not have fitted the machines at the new Kader plant - which may only have been obvious once machine and mould were side by side.  The pre-moulded parts were put together to give us the limited number of complete items now available.   If Kader had had no plans to move machines critical to these models from the SK plant to their own, then there is (or at least may be) no way back.  (Which is essentially what Hornby have said.)

 

 

This speculative view would explain a number of things that have puzzled people:

1  Why were the full numbers not supplied?

2  Why was the shortage not known back in April?

3  Why has it taken 7 months to deliver the goods?

 

 

SPECULATION ALERT OVER.

 

Edit: Combe Martin cross posting also correctly raises the issues of using the moulds in another factory.

[robmcg]

Refering to Southernelectic's post no 206 on here, yes I would expect Hornby to eventually produce more un-rebuilt Bullied Light Pacifics, though whether one would be Exeter or not well we'll all have to wait and see.  What I do understand is that it isn't quite as simple as giving the tools to a new factory and saying 'there they are get on with it'.  The tooling also has to fit the factory's equipment, so it probably cant be given to just any of the new suppliers, and then there are the factory's production slots to fit in with.

Given that Exeter was the last of the Sanda Kan production I think it unlikely that more unrebuilt Light Pacifics will appear soon, if ever. Same with rebuilt Light Pacifics. UNLESS Hornby make lots of money from retail sales of current REF-manufactured models AND see certain profits in setting up tooling in an REF or other factory.

 

Similarly I think the soon-to-come Britannias 70043-4 are end-of-SK production and that model will NOT see further production in the foreseeable, as it is quite tricky/labour-intensive to assemble.

 

But of course I am only guessing.

 

Edit; written without reading about the mould compatibility issues mentioned in the preceding post(s) and either way it is becoming harder to buy a new Brit or Bulleid Light Pacific at low prices, unless they are 'Wilton' or 'Bude' the 1948 trial version, or some of the SR livery versions

[robmcg]

In view of the above here are two models fettled by toboldygo which begs the question, when did ne re-name and re-number 34001? Will remove if required as did not ask toboldlygo first....

 

 

As well as 'when will my 34001 arrive by mail from the UK'? Please....

[southernelectric]

Hi,

Firstly if my "breadline" comment offended any retailer on here I apologise unreservedly. Secondly thanks to WidnesMC for his viewpoint and concerns  with the wider situation. Also thanks to him for answering my unasked question regarding Airfix et al. Although comparing Airfix to Hornby isn't really fair there does appear to a difference in approach even though they're under the same roof.

SouthernElectric, and others, I fully appreciate there are wider issues here, namely Hornbys longer term marketing strategy and their woeful lack of communication. That they're not aware of the sentiments on here and elsewhere simply isn't believable and an explanation should be forthcoming because someone decided how to handle the problem.

Which leads me back to my point earlier. Ignoring for the moment wider issues what should Hornby have done when 290 Exeters arrived. It's an insufficient number to fulfil all requests so now what.  Judging by the reaction perhaps dumping them all in the Channel and keeping quiet might have been the kindest thing :-)

Stu

 

Good post Stu. Very well put.

[southernelectric]

I personally think the reason, no one has heard from Hornby on the Exeter Triangle (so to speak). Is down to the fact that they are still trying to find out what happened (to the rest of the batch) and for legal reasons can't divulge what is going on... yet

 

I don't know the ins and outs of what they can and can't say but I still think it wasn't handled very well....I would have hoped that Margate would say something rather than nothing, and I mean publicly, not just via their reps to the retailers. If it was the case that Kader deliberately short-changed them I would hope Hornby is in a position to take legal action of some kind.

 

Regarding Ian Abel's comment about people wanting more than one, I am one of those people. As mentioned before a few times in the thread, I was buying more than one to have TMC renumber/rename some of them. I was not looking to profiteer on eBay or elsewhere.

 

I'm actually more miffed about the way this was handled and the way that the retailers were left high and dry more so than not actually getting any that I ordered. I can live without them. Disappointing maybe, yes. But I don't need products from Hornby to earn a living. Retailers do.

[southernelectric]

In view of the above here are two models fettled by toboldygo which begs the question, when did ne re-name and re-number 34001? Will remove if required as did not ask toboldlygo first....

 

Bulleid_34032_West_Country_Camelford_r1200_9a_full.jpg

Bulleid_34086_rhfan_2_r1200_1abcdefg_crop1.jpg

 

As well as 'when will my 34001 arrive by mail from the UK'? Please....

 

Always enjoy your photos Rob...I do like the Hornby West County/BoB models...air-smoothed and rebuilt variants.

 

Great to see the real Wadebridge recently at the Mid-Hants Railway Autumn Gala, even though she wasn't running that day.

[southernelectric]

This speculative view would explain a number of things that have puzzled people:

1  Why were the full numbers not supplied?

2  Why was the shortage not known back in April?

3  Why has it taken 7 months to deliver the goods?

 

Very succintly put Andy. We'll have to wait and see if Margate can answer those questions in due course...

[Combe Martin]

Refering to Ian Hargraves post no 194, why shouldn't Kader bear some responsibility for this problem.  It's not speculation that they own Sanda Kan who didn't produce the full order, and I did say 'for whatever reason'. 

 

As far as 'dragging Bachmann into the fray' well what I said was that they are owned by Kader, thats not speculating, but also that Hornby could not continue with Bachmann's owner as their supplier.  That's not speculating.  I also said that Bachmann too, have not been immune from supply problems, as has been well reported here, that's not speculating, but simply that it happens sometimes. Nothing in my post blamed Bachmann or their UK management, but they are a competitor to Hornby and are mentioned because that is why their owners could not continue as Hornby's supplier.  That is the link.

 

I started my post off because some contributors on here had plainly not read all the posts, and had accused Hornby of keeping all the supplied Exeters to sell themselves, whereas other contributors here had clearly stated that they had received their pre-ordered Exeters from their retailer, so Hornby at least should not have been accused of keeping them all.

 

As far as the number of new Hornby suppliers goes, I quoted 4 because a while back that was what I was told by a Hornby employee.  My figure of 6 came from a non Hornby employee which is why I said 'I don't definitely know about that', and I'm very happy to be updated over this and that Hornby have now minimised their risk of problems even more so by now spreading their load across 15 suppliers !  (Of course a cynic might point out that the more suppliers there are, means the more there is a chance that one of them at least will hit a problem !) 

[southernelectric]

Refering to Ian Hargraves post no 194, why shouldn't Kader bear some responsibility for this problem.  It's not speculation that they own Sanda Kan who didn't produce the full order, and I did say 'for whatever reason'. 

 

As far as 'dragging Bachmann into the fray' well what I said was that they are owned by Kader, thats not speculating, but also that Hornby could not continue with Bachmann's owner as their supplier.  That's not speculating.  I also said that Bachmann too, have not been immune from supply problems, as has been well reported here, that's not speculating, but simply that it happens sometimes. Nothing in my post blamed Bachmann or their UK management, but they are a competitor to Hornby and are mentioned because that is why their owners could not continue as Hornby's supplier.  That is the link.

 

I started my post off because some contributors on here had plainly not read all the posts, and had accused Hornby of keeping all the supplied Exeters to sell themselves, whereas other contributors here had clearly stated that they had received their pre-ordered Exeters from their retailer, so Hornby at least should not have been accused of keeping them all.

 

As far as the number of new Hornby suppliers goes, I quoted 4 because a while back that was what I was told by a Hornby employee.  My figure of 6 came from a non Hornby employee which is why I said 'I don't definitely know about that', and I'm very happy to be updated over this and that Hornby have now minimised their risk of problems even more so by now spreading their load across 15 suppliers !  (Of course a cynic might point out that the more suppliers there are, means the more there is a chance that one of them at least will hit a problem !) 

 

I don't recall reading on here anyone accusing of Hornby of keeping all the supplied Exeters to themselves unless I missed something. We know some found their way into the hands of retailers, for sure. How Hornby decided to divvy them up who knows. But it's the fact that they kept some to themselves while at the same time disregarding existing pre-orders that could have been fulfilled is what has left a slightly sour taste in some people's mouths...

[Ian Hargrave]

In view of the above here are two models fettled by toboldygo which begs the question, when did ne re-name and re-number 34001? Will remove if required as did not ask toboldlygo first....

 

Bulleid_34032_West_Country_Camelford_r1200_9a_full.jpg

Bulleid_34086_rhfan_2_r1200_1abcdefg_crop1.jpg

 

As well as 'when will my 34001 arrive by mail from the UK'? Please....

Now that 34086 is very tasty indeed.Nice one,James !

[Ian Hargrave]

I don't recall reading on here anyone accusing of Hornby of keeping all the supplied Exeters to themselves unless I missed something. We know some found their way into the hands of retailers, for sure. How Hornby decided to divvy them up who knows. But it's the fact that they kept some to themselves while at the same time disregarding existing pre-orders that could have been fulfilled is what has left a slightly sour taste in some people's mouths...

That's it,simply and effectively put.

[Ian Hargrave]

That's kinda what Im thinking.....

Its nothing to with blue or red boxes; its a company that was going to be "re-starting etc etc" as they all say...Its more like watching a bad episode The Apprentice but using real people's livelihoods and hobbies to see whats what and how they pull it round....

 

 

I don't have a very high opinion of some of our less successful "business leaders", who take the cash but don't deliver the goods they offer

 

 

Edit

the last bit about cash and goods refers to salaries and self-perceived abilities, not them taking money and running

Superb post.Thank you.

[Combe Martin]

Refering to post 230, if the forest in Finland was the only one in the world at that moment, then they'd have to accept that as a good excuse until another forest had grown. 

[Ian Hargrave]

We were informed after all: Only found it by accident as it used to be emailed to us, upon checking the last email we received was on 12th September. This was found in my trade account but not as an email but as a link. I thought Hornby had stopped sending these out.

 

Trade News Letter dated 21st November 2014. Under proposed new release w/c 24th November 2014

 

 

Near the bottom of page 2.

 

R603 Long Straight

Back in Stock

Order Now

*R3099, R3129, R3115 and R3103

Due to production issues we will not be able to fulfil all orders of these items. All available stock has been allocated in

the most equitable way possible. We apologise for any inconvenience.

 

To save looking

 

LNER 4-6-2 'Flying Scotsman' A3 Class

Sold Out*

R3129 SR 0-4-4T M7 Class

Sold Out*

R3115

BR 4-6-2 'Exeter' West Country Class - BR

Green

Sold Out*

R3103

BR 4-6-2 'Bittern' A4 Class - Double Tender

Special Edition Sold Out*

 

Ah well  that's alright then. With the exception of Exeter and Bittern, the other two can still be bought from the Hormnby website.

And Bittern has already appeared twice on e bay. Work that one out if you can.

[Combe Martin]

Refering to post 231, post 127 details a scenario with the quote  'stock was made available exclusively to the manufacturers own website', and even post 1 infers Hornby will 'keep the bulk back to supply direct'

[brushman47544]

First off, I do sympathise with the retailers over Hornby's handling of the Exeter model. But saying that I don't think we can blame Hornby if some retailers have them on general sale whereas others didn't get sufficient stock to fulfill their pre-orders; Hornby cannot be expected to know how many of a retailer's order are already pre-sold and how many are for the shelves. Equally, they cannot be expected to know whether a retailer's pre-orders are recent or made on the day the model was announced. So it's inevitable unfortunately that some people who ordered early will miss out to others who ordered later. I think I read earlier a post saying that Olivia Trains and an Ian Allan Bookshop had some for general sale, so it wasn't only the Hornby website shop, which I presume (and certainly hope) received a reduced allocation on a par with retailers.

 

We never seem to have a problem being supplied with their Airfix kits, Humbrol paints, brushes etc.

 

Don't forget Airfix kits are made in India and Humbrol paints in the UK, so not affected by Chinese production issues.

 

I think you have highlighted a very important point here which, so far as I am aware, has not been discussed on any on-line forum yet.

 

When the 2 BIL was announced there was a huge cry of (and I paraphrase here) 'We've all been wanting this for so long and it was about time Hornby did it', followed for a few weeks after it became available 'Where can I get one, my hobby shop has run out. Why didn't Hornby make many more to fulfil the massive demand we all have for it?'

 

Then I noticed, quite recently, that a number of traders were offering them (including the BR green ones) at huge discounts, as were Hornby themselves. The two things don't equate. Hornby - and all manufacturers - can't win, especially with the vocal element that seems to launch into 'must have it now' mode every time a model is launched. 

 

I really feel for the manufacturers. I wonder when Bachmann will be dumping Blue Pullmans - or maybe they will just pulp them.

 

JE

 

I read somewhere Simon Kohler saying that Hornby seriously underestimated demand for the first batches of 2-BILs, which had already been manufactured when retailers had to make their orders. So additional batches were hurriedly ordered, which turned out to be in excess of the demand. Hence the discounting. I suspect the latest batches (green with SYP and BR Blue) have been produced I numbers more closely matched to retailers' orders and we may not see the heavy discounting of earlier models.

[Ian Hargrave]

Refering to post 231, post 127 details a scenario with the quote  'stock was made available exclusively to the manufacturers own website', and even post 1 infers Hornby will 'keep the bulk back to supply direct'

So your point is...?  I don't believe for a moment that Hornby did not act as Our Lord with the loaves and fishes. The real issue is that they had to do it at all ....with the inevitable consequences to the retail trade amply illustrated for us above.

  Another "scenario" to ponder.....what if Hornby had decided to pass on the opportunity of putting their share of loaves & fishes for sale on their website ? Manbe a few bob less in the kitty but perhaps riches in the Bank of Goodwill and Christmas Cheer......maybe...

[Combe Martin]

Refering to post 241 above, I was simply answering post 231 where the contributor had said they hadn't seen accusations of Hornby keeping all the Exeters for themselves, but I had. Which was what prompted me to comment in the first place.

[toboldlygo]

In view of the above here are two models fettled by toboldygo which begs the question, when did ne re-name and re-number 34001? Will remove if required as did not ask toboldlygo first....

 

Bulleid_34032_West_Country_Camelford_r1200_9a_full.jpg

Bulleid_34086_rhfan_2_r1200_1abcdefg_crop1.jpg

 

As well as 'when will my 34001 arrive by mail from the UK'? Please....

 

A long time ago, in it's rebuilt form

[Dunsignalling]

Given that Exeter was the last of the Sanda Kan production I think it unlikely that more unrebuilt Light Pacifics will appear soon, if ever. Same with rebuilt Light Pacifics. UNLESS Hornby make lots of money from retail sales of current REF-manufactured models AND see certain profits in setting up tooling in an REF or other factory.

 

Similarly I think the soon-to-come Britannias 70043-4 are end-of-SK production and that model will NOT see further production in the foreseeable, as it is quite tricky/labour-intensive to assemble.

 

But of course I am only guessing.

 

Edit; written without reading about the mould compatibility issues mentioned in the preceding post(s) and either way it is becoming harder to buy a new Brit or Bulleid Light Pacific at low prices, unless they are 'Wilton' or 'Bude' the 1948 trial version, or some of the SR livery versions

Bearing in mind that 'Wilton' was one of the first new-generation Hornby Light pacifics, any you find will be 12-13 years old even if they look new.

 

Recent prices being asked/realised at shows and swapmeets round here start around £95 for 'cans in Brunswick and £110 for rebuilts (Mint/boxed). Rarer ones like City of Wells go for upwards of £125 but almost all are hard to find. Malachite examples (SR or BR) are a different matter, being plentiful and generally £15-£20 cheaper than their darker counterparts.

 

I paid £115 for my latest rebuilt (Yes Tor) in truly mint condition but in a slightly scuffed/faded box as part of a multi-model purchase for which the trader knocked a bit off the combined price. 

 

At the same show another trader was asking £125 each for all the West Countries he had (no rareties and including the notorious Bude). By the time I left in mid-afternoon, none of his had disappeared so I guess that gives a rough guide to the price ceiling.

 

There is the odd bargain to be had for modellers; earlier in the year I got a rather rough-looking Wilton with a few detail parts missing for £45 to restore and rename that's turned out to be one of my nicest runners.

 

John