Oxfordrail - Adams Radial

[Bernard Lamb]

How can you have a 'large minority'?

 

 

How about 49.99%

Taken to two places of decimals to keep the P4 people happy.

Bernard

[BlackRat]

That leaves a small majority then

['CHARD]

  They (kit builders) may not spend fortunes on RTR but it is their layouts which we see at the model railway exhibitions, not the cupboards full of unopened RTR boxes.

 

[my bold]

 

Really?  The majority of layouts I see at exhibitions are OO and N, and although I haven't asked the builders how they would categorize themselves, I suspect they would not describe themselves as kit-builders, first and foremost.

 

Of course we don't see cupboards of unopened RTR boxes, but at the exhibitions I frequent, it's plain to see that stock of RTR origin does predominate.  Probably when these layouts aren't being exhibited, there are cupboards full of boxes too.

[teaky]

Do you think the Oxfordrail announcement is going to be as exciting as the Hornby Christmas one?

[Sr-Dixon]

I might be looking at things wrong here, but if there was no collectors and modellers there would be no product, if rtr was a perfect standard there would be no manufacturers making kits, in my view for whoever purchases or makes their own models it's still keeping the hobby alive, consider this, if the next generation were faced with an introduction to the hobby by building kits or making their own then chances are in this day and age we would be the only ones left in the hobby.

As much as I can appreciate that scratch building and kits offer a higher quality, I for one wouldn't be able to afford buying a kit let alone practise kits to gain knowledge to build a decent quality, so Im quite happy for more and more company's coming to the plate to make rtr items, if people want a higher quality they can go buy a kit, or scratch build etc, how many kits are available and still sold of locos and stock that are produced rtr?

In relation to companys making the same prototype, what's the issue? Burger King and McDonald's both make burgers, it's better to give people a choice of essentially the same thing but to personal taste, like I'd take a Bachmann a4 over a Hornby a4. If we didn't have that then companys would produce a "it looks like one" model rather than put more quality into a product to make it better than the other companies.

[Arthur]

Many are so poor that "extreme lengths" may only result in a "Half" decent model even after significant additional  cost and hours of work.

 

 

Extreme lengths?? What complete and utter nonsense. The current crop of RTR may not be perfect, and some is clearly worse than others, but the overall standards and accuracy are light years ahead of what we once had.

 

Here's 'extreme lengths' to get a 'half decent model';

 

 

Once upon a time, to get a half decent Crab from RTR. Lima body; front end 'boiled' to soften the plastic so that I could level out the cocked up front footplate, most detail replaced with turnings, castings and wire. Loco frames fretted from brass sheet, Anchoridge motor, etched gearbox, Romford wheels, original Lima cylinders and valve gear re-used (it wasn't bad by the standards of the day), Airfix tender body, Comet tender chassis. Complete repaint and re-line. The cab is still under width and doesn't have the characteristic overhang compared with the tender.

 

At the time I was pleased with the result but it's not a patch on an out of the box Bachmann Crab.

 

Yes, I could have built the DJH kit, I've built many kits, but I kinda liked the challenge of improving RTR.

 

No current RTR offering requires anything like that level of work.

 

By all means, encourage the RTR manufacturers to improve still further but remember the costs of diminishing returns.

 

And a final point Adrian. One kit I built many years ago was your own Thompson L1 2-6-4T. Certainly one of the better cast kits, a pleasure to build and I was very pleased with the result.

 

As a complete model, is it better, more crisply detailed, more accurate, than the more recent Hornby offering? No.

 

So please, some perspective on things, not ranting and hyperbole.

[adrianbs]

Hi all  

The comparison with of a 40  year old kit with a recent RTR model is not a good one, I would suggest comparing with a recent Martin Finney kit with the option of working inside valvegear, full comp[ensation, OO EM or P4 options etc etc.  I have no doubt you would agree that the L1  kit compared favourably to a 40 year old Hornby model.

 

  Sr-Dixon  commented that if RTR was perfect there would be no kit manufacturers. What a strange comment, actually if there had been no kit manufacturers in say O gauge until the current RTR products arrived there would be NO RTR apart from a few short lived toys like Triang Big-Big.  Indeed the selection of say RTR rolling stock in 4 or 7mm is still so sparse it is difficult to get anywhere near a realistic passenger or freight train to run behind many of the RTR locos that have been produced. Where is the LNWR, LSWR, MR etc  rolling stock to run behind the various pregroup liveried locos presently available.  It is almost entirely kit sourced as it has been for decades in the past, and to come, I venture to suggest. 

 

   I would certainly not like to have to modify some of the current crop of freight and many passenger vehicles to make them accurate as readers of other foums will be aware but without them it can be difficult to run accurate trains.  Many coach ranges do not include a sufficient variety of types to make any sort of mainline train apart from BR Mk 1 stock.  If you want accurate locos to pull trains as opposed to sitting in boxes surely you would want accurate rolling stock with appropriate variety as well.

 

  To Chard I would say I DID distinguish between  COLLECTORS  and  the builders and you said yourself they had BUILT their layout so they must categorise themselves as builders probably scratch  builders in fact.  I suppose some may have bought their layouts RTR but they must have been built by someone,   mass produced RTR layouts are few and far between.

   

     At least we seem to have resolved the argument about large and small  majorities and minorities.      Regards all  adrianbs

[BlackRat]

Adrian, appreciate you have a vested interest in kits, but more than a large minority of us have splashed out a not inconsiderable sum on kits, motors, gears, paints, transfers, couplings etc to find that due to deficiencies in the kit design they are sometimes unbuildable.

 

Not that I've given up on kits, I still build a few, mainly wagons, but for the cost of an etched kit and all the shiny bits, many of us prefer to stick to rtr, for the moment anyway. (In 00 that is).

 

I take it there are tens of thousands of kits built and sold, these people being a large minority.

 

Any kit manufacturer care to enlighten us?

[newbryford]

How about 49.99%

Taken to two places of decimals to keep the P4 people happy.

Bernard

 

But surely 48.83% is more accurate and appropriate..?

 

Cheers,

Mick

Edited October 24, 2014 by newbryford

['CHARD]

 

  To Chard I would say I DID distinguish between  COLLECTORS  and  the builders and you said yourself they had BUILT their layout so they must categorise themselves as builders probably scratch  builders in fact.  I suppose some may have bought their layouts RTR but they must have been built by someone,   mass produced RTR layouts are few and far between.

   

 

Point nicely explained; my apologies for reading your OP in a somewhat blinkered way 

 

 

EDIT:  just a small self-referential observation...  

Several evenings recently I have wondered aloud to family members, that instead of facing an hour of intolerable reality TV, and with no usable layout available to me at present - 'right now I would love nothing better than a few wagon kits to get stuck into.'

Edited October 24, 2014 by 'CHARD

[Sr-Dixon]

My comment wasn't about the history of it all, purely based at current standings, and in relation to pregrouping stock, aren't Bachmann releasing SECR birdcage stock? And at present how do we not know that Oxford arnt going for pregrouping? Their image at present shows a pre grouping adams radial does it not?

Going back to the collector and modeller etc, shouldn't their be a "genre" inbetween of people who just want to run trains, and not care for 100% accuracy? That was what OO was made for wasn't it? fine kits come before RTR and like I said I have no issues with kit built, but for the vast majority of people RTR is completely fine and, like myself when I'm working a 77 hour week and caring for a family I don't have the time to make things as accurate as possible

[45568]

It seems that a certain 'new chum', "loconuts" seems to have managed, with posts in single figures, in igniting more bushfires than a serial arsonist with a bulk pack of 'Bic' lighters in a West Australian summer!!

 I sense a smell under the bridge??

Cheers,

PC

[Ryde-on-time]

Another thread where adrainabs's involvement (and his identical twin!) has reduced it to word games and semantics about models and what people will tolerate

 

Another one sadly to avoid 

[Sr-Dixon]

Oh and I just had word from a supplier, and as far as they know they are 90% certain that oxfordrail are making model railway products not static ones

[Adams442T]

Point nicely explained; my apologies for reading your OP in a somewhat blinkered way 

 

 

EDIT:  just a small self-referential observation...  

Several evenings recently I have wondered aloud to family members, that instead of facing an hour of intolerable reality TV, and with no usable layout available to me at present - 'right now I would love nothing better than a few wagon kits to get stuck into.'

Isn't it a bit early to be dropping hints for Christmas.............

[Arthur]

Hi all  

The comparison with of a 40  year old kit with a recent RTR model is not a good one, I would suggest comparing with a recent Martin Finney kit with the option of working inside valvegear, full comp[ensation, OO EM or P4 options etc etc.  I have no doubt you would agree that the L1  kit compared favourably to a 40 year old Hornby model.

    Regards all  adrianbs

I agree, that is a fair point, but how many modellers have the skill to build a Finney kit. Very few. Most will be happy that there's a pretty damned good, if not perfect, RTR option available.

[stewartingram]

Oh and I just had word from a supplier, and as far as they know they are 90% certain that oxfordrail are making model railway products not static ones

Don't forget that on the website page, and in the newsletter, they state:

 

00 gauge

12v

 

Stewart

[Dunsignalling]

 

 ...the selection of say RTR rolling stock in 4 or 7mm is still so sparse it is difficult to get anywhere near a realistic passenger or freight train to run behind many of the RTR locos that have been produced. Where is the LNWR, LSWR, MR etc  rolling stock to run behind the various pregroup liveried locos presently available.  It is almost entirely kit sourced as it has been for decades in the past, and to come, I venture to suggest. 

 

   I would certainly not like to have to modify some of the current crop of freight and many passenger vehicles to make them accurate as readers of other foums will be aware but without them it can be difficult to run accurate trains.  Many coach ranges do not include a sufficient variety of types to make any sort of mainline train apart from BR Mk 1 stock.  If you want accurate locos to pull trains as opposed to sitting in boxes surely you would want accurate rolling stock with appropriate variety as well.

 

Might I venture to suggest that (certainly in 4mm scale) whether or not one can assemble representative trains from r-t-r products is entirely dependent on the area and period modelled. Some are well served, some occasionally touched upon and others (probably most) virtually ignored.

 

That is statistically inevitable; Britain's railways evolved through layer-upon-layer of mergers and takeovers. As you look further back, there are ever more, ever smaller, railway companies and the number of true enthusiasts for each one decreases accordingly.

 

The problem for the r-t-r manufacturers in making pre-group models is that "pre-group" covers such a multitude of possibilities. Pre- and post-WW1, pre- and post-1900 just to mention the larger choices. UK railways on the eve of the grouping differed substantially from the way they looked on the day Queen Victoria died.

 

So, which bit of "pre-group" do you go for? You can bet your bottom dollar that many on here would prefer you to have picked a different one!

 

The other snag is that many pre-group coaches were painted in liveries as complex as those of the locos that pulled them. That makes producing models of them expensive and makes it essential to pick prototypes that lasted until more popular eras (ideally into BR livery, like Bachmann's forthcoming SECR stock) to get enough overall volume out of the tooling to keep prices in two figures.

 

Many who buy pre-group liveried locos do so because of their attractive appearance rather than any intrinsic interest in the prototype. The proportion of them who would be willing to pay premium prices (I reckon £70+ each at current prices) for matching coaches is highly problematic.

 

If you were a r-t-r manufacturer, would you risk it? Bachmann's "Birdcages" are about as brave as I'd get. Quite a clever choice in that the three vehicles make up a standardised complete main line train (albeit a short one). There are examples from most pre-group companies that would fit the same pattern, but, if you can't buy enough different Gresleys or Staniers to make up a full express, any idea of being able to do so for earlier periods has to be pure fantasy.

 

John

Edited October 24, 2014 by Dunsignalling

[2ManySpams]

I have a Martin Finney T9 expertly built for me in OO and a number of the Hornby ones. I can say without doubt I couldn't have built such a complex kit myself to the standard the professional managed. I can say that you can get around 4 Hornby T9s for the price of the Finney build. Most people now assume the Finney loco is a Hornby RTR item and, in most respects they are visually equal. The tender detail, watercart undercarriage and front bogie detail are better on the Finney. The cab detail is better on the Hornby. Both look like T9s.

 

A kit built loco, even one as good as the Finney does not automatically mean it's better or more accurate. In the case of the T9 they are different but in my view equally as good. All my Hornby T9s have been worked on to represent prototype 72a locos and now I have to look really hard to distinguish the Finney.

 

It's absolute nonsense to say in the majority of cases that RTR is lowering standards (generic 7mm milk tankers aside). The vast majority of RTR models are better, certainly better finished, than the most will achieve through kit building.

 

I'll also state that IMO there are more examples of poorly considered, poorly cast/etched, ill proportioned kits out there than good ones. And kit age appears to have no bearing. The recently produced 7mm loco kit I'm building has turned out to have many dimensional errors and a multitude of inappropriate and poorly produced castings. By comparison those kit producers get away with murder compared to the acidity heaped on the RTR boys.

[BlackRat]

A kit built loco, even one as good as the Finney does not automatically mean it's better or more accurate. In the case of the T9 they are different but in my view equally as good. All my Hornby T9s have been worked on to represent prototype 72a locos and now I have to look really hard to distinguish the Finney.

It's absolute nonsense to say in the majority of cases that RTR is lowering standards (generic 7mm milk tankers aside). The vast majority of RTR models are better, certainly better finished, than the most will achieve through kit building.

And there one often lies the crux, ie it's assumed that a kit is always somehow better than a RTR model, more accurate etc etc etc, in some cases yes, but not all, no matter how expensive.

 

A recent article in the MRJ showed some wonderful coaches, beautifully made, hugely expensive yet the curtains, destination boards and interiors were not a patch on what's available RTR. (IMHO).

 

Some have the skill, some don't, even TW ends up having to problem solve sometimes whilst kit building.

Edited October 24, 2014 by BlackRat

[Loconuts]

I Guys Adrians twin here, it does not take much to wind you guys up does it?  I

[BlackRat]

All depends really, but generally heard it all before.........several times over!

[96701]

I Guys Adrians twin here, it does not take much to wind you guys up does it?  I

And your point is?

[Loconuts]

My point is that I am not against the RTR model, After all my locos are all RTR models produced by Mountain Model Imports, but they are generic models and I have to work on them to represent a particular prototype at a certain time frame.

The comparison of the T9's reminded me of an issue to the MRJ a few years ago, edited by Gerry Beale, where he compared a RTR Hall against a Martin Finney one.  The only visible difference was a moulding witness line along the top of the boiler on the RTR model.  Also in that issue there was a article on his upgrade of a Hornby 8F, what a superb job he made of it, From first glance at the pictures it looked that is was a 7mm scale model and only by reading the article all was explained.

I know Martin Finney and therefore I also know about the vast amount of research he puts into his kits, hence the expense of the kits.

One has to look in the right places for American scratch built models, not to be found in the Model Railroader (US version of the Railway Modeler).  Not many kit built locos though as that is a big hole in American modeling.

My original worry was that Oxford Diecast have not got a railway pedigree and if they don't get it right thats going to cost and we will see them disappear from the market just as quick as they appeared.  Hopefully they have just as slick engineers and modelers on board to compliment the slick advertising.

New shipment of Bic lighters on the way to Aus for the start of the new summer season.

 

Loconuts 

[Butler Henderson]

My original worry was that Oxford Diecast have not got a railway pedigree and if they don't get it right thats going to cost and we will see them disappear from the market just as quick as they appeared.

 

Neither had Rovex until M&S commissioned a train set, Palitoy before they launched Mainline and Airfix had little before starting their Railway System - the last two whilst no longer with us marked a big step change in the detail and accuracy of OO stock and the former is today what we call Hornby.