N gauge Streamlined Great Western Railcar (Kickstarter)

[Gerald Henriksen]

 I know he did some great work at Dapol but I don't follow the ins and outs and politics of the model train manufacturers so I don't know how much was him and how much was Dapol. 

 

 

This post by DJM may help you with that - http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/89671-Heljan-planning-a-1361-too/page-4&do=findComment&comment=1573395

[250BOB]

I thought I would check out the kickstarted site this morning, as the idea of pledging money up front does seem like a reasonably good idea to get models up and running. A big deposit if you like...... Nothing wrong with that idea, I call it commitment.

However I see with only 27 days of the 60 left to commit, only 100 people of the required 1000 have signed up.

Is this idea doomed to failure I wonder.???

[Kris]

Doesn't look promising does it Bob. A real shame. 

 

I do wonder if BH Enterprises announcement of a streamline railcar (3d print needing chassis, painting etc) has had an impact. https://www.facebook.com/groups/bhenterprise/?fref=ts

[Roy L S]

Disappointing if true.

 

With all due respect to BHE their kit is unlikely to be in the same league as what has been proposed here at all.

 

I personally begin to wonder if it is the cost associated to this ambitious specification, pushing the price-point over £100 that has been the issue for some (although not me)..

 

Roy

[Revolution Ben]

Hi there,

 

I'm watching Matthew's progress with interest as Mike Hale and I are planning a Kickstarter campaign in the next month or so for a Pendolino in N.

 

I think it's almost impossible to judge how well it's doing from the number of pledges so far; it may well be there are many who still haven't heard of the scheme. Others, if it's a model they want, but looks like it's going to fail, may decide to come in toward the end of the pledging period.

 

I suspect that there are some who don't appreciate that they have nothing to lose by pledging since no money is taken unless the project reaches its full target amount; but if they don't take the initiative and just wait for other people to, then it probably won't happen.

 

Kickstarter is a really exciting way for modellers to get the models *they* want, and has worked elsewhere in the world, but it does require people to overcome their natural (British?) reticence to get involved.

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

[farren]

I can't see the cost putting people of to much it's in the same price range of other models available.

 

It could be one of two other factors 1st as its a hobby and we all have a budget to keep to maybe its more time is needed to save for the deposit before they comit to it.

 

Or could it just be the wrong prototype and just dose not do it for people.

 

 

Saying all that I have no interest in buying one being the wrong guage company but I do hope whatever the outcome it does not damage any new kick starters im the future.

[The Stationmaster]

It could be down to a variety of factors.  Firstly I understand from some retailers that N gauge is far less popular in terms of r-t-r sales compared with 00 - i.e the market is much smaller, not necessarily an ideal starting point.  Going forward from there - and this was, I think, going to be a problem with Dapol's original 00 project - the prototype was not one of the most widely used of the streamlined cars although I'm sure that would not affect many modellers who would be happy to overlook that fact.

 

There is possibly still some reticence to spend, or commit future personal finance, due to the economic climate.  That is a difficult thing to gauge but it does seem plenty of manufacturers are willing to commit their own money to model development in the face of equal uncertainty so it might not be as much of a hurdle as some might think?

 

But overall I think the most likely cause is the difficulty of opening knowledge of such a project to the widest range of potential backers and maybe a natural disinclination on the part of the British modeller to take any financial responsibility for the development of a new product when, until now, 'someone else' has effectively done that for them.  Perhaps the best way to get the kickstart idea accepted is to choose something which is popular and will appeal to the largest potential part of the identifiable market, always assuming that can first be identified?

[Revolution Ben]

 

Hello Mike,

 

At their summer trade event Bachmann told me that N Farish sales are now at around 20% of their OO sales. In theory there *should* be enough GWR modellers who could support this project.

 

I think the problems are a combination of publicity and precedent. Publicity in that it's important to get the message to as many as possible, and precedent in that as you've identified British modellers may not yet be ready for such a financing method. This is a real shame as in many ways Kickstarter offers real possibilities to modellers to get the models they want.

 

Cheers

 

Ben A.

[Robert Shrives]

Hi Email last week saying half way there so it is growing.

 

Robert

[250BOB]

Hi Email last week saying half way there so it is growing.

 

Robert

Not according to the kickstart website checked yesterday. It clearly says only 10% of the required 1000 pledges have so far been forthcoming, and we are over half way through the pledging period of 60 days.

I think the problem is a lack of interest in things GWR.............

[Not Captain Kernow]

I think the half way there is a reference to the 60 day period, not the number of pledges.

[Karhedron]

Yes, I sent the half-way point message in relation to the time period rather than the required number of sign-ups. As others have pointed out, uptake is only just over 10%.

 

At this rate, I am not particularly optimistic. Pledges continue to trickle, the project was announced in the latest N Gauge Society Journal which is arriving on people's doormats at the moment. This has generated a bit more momentum. Unless there are 900 people waiting for the last minute, it will not be happening.

 

I doubt that BHE's kit will affect uptake much. The market for kits is always smaller than RTR so I cannot see many people declining RTR in favour of the kit, certainly not enough people to make a significant difference. Also the BHE railcar is based on the unique Railcar 1 which makes it even more limited than the 2-4 series. Number 1 spent most of its life in the Thames valley. At lest 2-4 got around a bit.

 

Would more people have signed up if it was for the 8-16 series? My guess is that for most people, a streamlined railcar is a streamlined car. I know the differences because of the time I spent researching the project. To be honest, if a manufacturer were bringing one out, I would be happy with any flavour. Whilst more numerous, the 8-16 series is harder as there are no preserved examples to measure or scan and work would have to have been done from drawings. This would have taken more time and money.

 

I have worked pretty hard publicizing the project. There have been announcements in most of the main modelling mags available in Smiths. The NGS journal has covered the dedicated N Gauge crowd. I have been busy on several forums as well as Facebook and Twitter. I even had posters up at TINGS and RMWeb Live.

 

There are still 4 weeks to go so if anyone has any other ideas for spreading the word, there is still time to let me know.

 

As to whether it is the right prototype, that is hard to tell. The Farish version has been a consistent seller over the years so my reasoning was that a vehicle in the same niche but with distinctively different bodystyling should prove similarly popular. I guess the answer is that it is not proving popular enough. Also the streamlined railcars were withdrawn by the end of the 50s. While they carried BR livery, they just miss out on the "transition era" sweet-spot.

 

Ultimately I started the project because it was something I wanted to see produced. If the project fails, it will be diappointing but I do not regret my choice of subject or decision to give it a go. I will keep my fingers crossed for a late surge in interest and wish Ben and Mike better luck in the Pendolino project.

 

In the meantime, I had better practice my lining for that BHE kit.

[traction]

I have no need for it, but it's such a lovely looking thing had to back it.

It's great not modelling an era or area!!

If I like the look of it then I will buy it!!

 

Hope it actually gets enough backers.

 

Just wish there was an N-gauge Kestrel, thats a fanatastic looking loco!

 

Cheers

 

Ian

[farren]

If the worst does happen and the numbers don't pick up there is always the future you have done the hard research and that's not going anywhere.

 

But fingers crossed and hopefully we will see a lot of late backers signing up.

[wombatofludham]

Although it's the wrong gauge and definitely the wrong railway for me, I think you deserve a lot of credit for getting the ball rolling and putting in so much work into this project.  I do hope it attracts a late surge, but if it doesn't, it won't be down to you in any way. 

[Revolution Ben]

 

Hi Matthew,

 

I don't think you could realistically have done much more to get the word out; nor do I think there is anything wrong in your choice of prototype.

 

Increasingly, I am of the view that we are in a chicken and egg situation - uk modellers are reluctant to back a Kickstarter project because they've not seen one succeed before; yet until enough modellers back a project unseen we won't ever get one!

 

Our Pendolino project will probably go live shortly before or shortly after your pledging period ends. We've gone for a different era and a very different train (though both are streamlined!) so if, between these two different projects, neither is successful then we may have to accept the market here is just not ready for this.

 

I'm still rooting for a late surge for you though!

 

Cheers

 

Ben A.

[Dr Al]

Maybe this is a case of too much promised too soon from DJM? Whilst we know Dave's pedigree, DJM has yet to produce or deliver anything, and as such I can see why folks might be holding off to see how good the first products are.

 

Also, perhaps 1000 is a fairly heavy amount to try and get committed - do many models sell out 1000 units in N gauge in the first 2 months? Dapol don't produce batches this big, Farish do, but they often sit on shelves for over 6 months or longer.

 

Cheers,
Alan

[DJM Dave]

Maybe this is a case of too much promised too soon from DJM? Whilst we know Dave's pedigree, DJM has yet to produce or deliver anything, and as such I can see why folks might be holding off to see how good the first products are.

 

Also, perhaps 1000 is a fairly heavy amount to try and get committed - do many models sell out 1000 units in N gauge in the first 2 months? Dapol don't produce batches this big, Farish do, but they often sit on shelves for over 6 months or longer.

 

Cheers,

Alan

Hi Alan,

I understand your comments but cannot agree with them in afraid ( democracy huh? Lol)

I've shown, along with Kernow the O2 recently, plus my OO gauge J94. In fact the J94 was running quite happily last week on a test track in Hatton's.

If your alluding to product on the shelves, fair enough, but experience has taught us all that from announcement to shop takes time.

Are 1000 models a non starter in 4 different running numbers?

No, not in GWR anyway, as they always seem to sell well.

 

Without falling out with you, I'd suggest that ventures such as these might fall flat by people listening to the nay Sayers who should keep their own council /supporting it, and being swayed. I'm never surprised by reading these forums to read negative comments by people who, unwittingly or otherwise, sway the casual reader with their negative opinions. This then gets passed from person to person almost taken as gospel. I'd suggest this is probably more harmful to the hobby as a whole than helpful.

 

I for one ( and yes I would say it) think it's a blinking great thing Matthew is doing, and if people talk it down or don't sign up, that's up to them, but in so doing they drive nails into the coffin lid of potential future projects that could, if this is successful, go forward , presented by people that put their time and money where their mouth is, not just talk a good game!

 

As for me and my production situation, ive always said the J94 would be first and free up capital for the rest and this still stands. Like a snowball rolling down hill I'll collect more money and invest as I go. The only reason things are slightly protracted in N is that due to the recent price rises in China, I've decided to use my own cash to supplement the shortfall in my cash flow as I don't wish to, and havn't put any published prices up. Again, putting my money where my mouth is.

 

Good on you Matthew, and fingers crossed for this potentially history making venture.

[Karhedron]

Actually, typical Dapol loco batches are either 1000 or 1200 over a spread of liveries. I believe Farish batches are actually larger as they seem to do about 500 models per livery variant.

 

I know that 1000 is ambitous but it was necessary to get the price down to comparable for a RTR diesel loco (which is what it will be compared against). If I had done a run of 500, I would have needed fewer backers but the price would have been closer to £200 each. That is getting into Blue Pullman territory and I suspected that I would have lost more sales proportionally.

[Dr Al]

Actually, typical Dapol loco batches are either 1000 or 1200 over a spread of liveries. I believe Farish batches are actually larger as they seem to do about 500 models per livery variant.

 

 

I thought Farish were batches of 504 for a limited run and 1008 for a standard? And Dapol 250 per livery/number? Maybe things have changed, but that's what they used to be.

 

I understand wanting to keep the price down - it's a no-win situation, but I fear that 1000 may just be too high a number to hit.

 

Best,

Alan

[Dr Al]

I've shown, along with Kernow the O2 recently, plus my OO gauge J94. In fact the J94 was running quite happily last week on a test track in Hatton's.

 

Sorry Dave, I guess I was implicitly referring to N gauge models....of which I am looking forward to seeing your first EPs!

 

Edit - would be good if you could update folks on the OO J94? Reason I don't know about it is that there's nothing to make our eyes water either here or on the website. Maybe that's why you can understand my comment - I think in general folks aren't aware of the latest developments - I certainly wasn't!

 

Cheers,

Alan

[Revolution Mike]

I thought Farish were batches of 504 for a limited run and 1008 for a standard? And Dapol 250 per livery/number? Maybe things have changed, but that's what they used to be.

 

Multiply your Farish figures by a factor of 3-4 for a standard run. Sure they will do them in 504 per livery but only to a minimum order of several thousand.

 

Dapol batches are still 1000+ albeit typically split into 250/livery/number.

[DJM Dave]

Sorry Dave, I guess I was implicitly referring to N gauge models....of which I am looking forward to seeing your first EPs!

 

Edit - would be good if you could update folks on the OO J94? Reason I don't know about it is that there's nothing to make our eyes water either here or on the website. Maybe that's why you can understand my comment - I think in general folks aren't aware of the latest developments - I certainly wasn't!

 

Cheers,

Alan

Hi Alan,

 

Very good point made, as I think the J94 pics are only in the RMweb live section here.

 

I'll put that right either this evening or in the morning. Thanks for pointing that out.

Cheers

Dave

[plarailfan]

I hope this Great Western railcar project, does happen !

I think if they were out in the shops, on general sale now, for Christmas, they would be a huge success and there would be a surge in GW / BR, Western region, Inglenook style, minimum space layouts !

The only snag I found, with the Kickstarter site, is that you have to search specifically for "Great Western", as a search for "train" or similar, does not produce a result.

I must say though, I am surprised this project hasn't become fully subscribed by now. it's bizarre and I really can't understand it at all ! (Just hoping I come up, on the Euromillions / lotto before the project's deadline)     

[Karhedron]

I don't think it reflects lack of popularity of the prototype. I suspect it is more to do with the target demographic's caution about using a medium like kickstarter to fund a project that may not produce a model for 15-18 months.