59003 Coming Home

[Xerces Fobe2]

Classify 59003 as an asylum seeker -sorted!

[Fat Controller]

I suspect it has far more to do with politics than paperwork. Basically SNCF are locked in battle with DB to be the dominant force when it comes to railways in Europe and it strikes me that just as the French tried every trick in the book to try and prevent Eurosar from buying German trains, delaying transit traffic from your deadly rival is just the sort of thing SNCF might do - particularly if it annoys the Brits - who the French blame for the EUs efforts to split up SNCF and allow competition in the first place.

 

British rail freight companies have long complained that in the rest of Europe they have difficulties securing paths (regardless of what EU directives say) and of all the operators SNCF and DB are among the worst as they desperately try prevent competition.

Ironically, one of the biggest competitors of SNCF and DB is the road-haulage business, in which they are major players via either direct ownership or by partnership. SNCF also competes directly for railfreight via VFLI, it's 'low-cost' subsiduary; this was originally a company operating local railways, which SNCF took over, and expanded to cover initially local workings, and now longer-distance ones. Footplate staff retire at 62 instead of 50, and have fewer benefits, but the onerous conditions haven't stopped lots of SNCF drivers joining when they retire..

[byron]

I suspect it has far more to do with politics than paperwork. Basically SNCF are locked in battle with DB to be the dominant force when it comes to railways in Europe and it strikes me that just as the French tried every trick in the book to try and prevent Eurosar from buying German trains, delaying transit traffic from your deadly rival is just the sort of thing SNCF might do - particularly if it annoys the Brits - who the French blame for the EUs efforts to split up SNCF and allow competition in the first place.

 

British rail freight companies have long complained that in the rest of Europe they have difficulties securing paths (regardless of what EU directives say) and of all the operators SNCF and DB are among the worst as they desperately try prevent competition.

Some odd comments here. The rail freight scene in Germany is very competative. There are over a dozen companies competing against the DB, a look at some of the German web sites will confirm this. At least four national railways have freight services in Germany!

As for UK operations getting paths, one (DB) will have no problems. Once you have a path then what? Where do you get traction? Please sir may I hire a locofromyou to compete against you? No way. Train crew? where do you get these from? Remember they need route knowledge and traction knowledge,and the ability to speak in tongues.

Running a train is not like running a white van!

 

Mike

[brushman47544]

Are you a track worker?

If not then you have no right to demand the removal of something we regard as important to our safety on a daily basis just because you don't like the colour.

Having high intensity headlights is all very well for telling you a train is approaching but absolutely useless when it comes to assessing speed and distance. A large yellow panel is far easier for the brain to interpret, particularly on long straight sections of track where a train may be visible for long lengths of time. If anything there is to little yellow on many liveries now.

And yes I know we allow steam (well tolerate it in my book) to not have yellow ends but that does not mean its fine to get rid if it elsewhere. I am also well aware that railways elsewhere in Europe don't feel the need for them - but here in the UK the people who matter DO feel the need for them.

My comment was made in the context of a thread about 59003 returning to the UK and the potential requirement for it to have a yellow panel to be able to come by rail through the Tunnel. The lack of it should not in my opinion be a stumbling block especially since Group Standards don't require it. Surely what matters is that a train is as visible as possible to all on its approach. If a yellow panel can be dispensed with because a better level of visibility can be achieved by other means, surely that is better for track workers and anyone else on the railway.

 

The question of interoperability has also been raised. Continental railways have used decent headlights on locos for far longer than they have been in the UK so they developed visibility requirements without them. Cross border rail traffic in Europe sees locos operating under many different safety regimes and if the UK is to properly join in through better usage of the Channel Tunnel I would certainly hope that the absence of a yellow panel on a loco that meets applicable EU interoperability standards, CT and Group Standards would not be used as a reason to stop it operating on Network Rail. Whose interests would that serve except the road lobby?

[Bon Accord]

Andrew,

You should know by now that just because Europe does things one way, we in the UK couldn't possibly do the same as after all we know much better than everyone else!

[Fat Controller]

My comment was made in the context of a thread about 59003 returning to the UK and the potential requirement for it to have a yellow panel to be able to come by rail through the Tunnel. The lack of it should not in my opinion be a stumbling block especially since Group Standards don't require it. Surely what matters is that a train is as visible as possible to all on its approach. If a yellow panel can be dispensed with because a better level of visibility can be achieved by other means, surely that is better for track workers and anyone else on the railway.

 

The question of interoperability has also been raised. Continental railways have used decent headlights on locos for far longer than they have been in the UK so they developed visibility requirements without them. Cross border rail traffic in Europe sees locos operating under many different safety regimes and if the UK is to properly join in through better usage of the Channel Tunnel I would certainly hope that the absence of a yellow panel on a loco that meets applicable EU interoperability standards, CT and Group Standards would not be used as a reason to stop it operating on Network Rail. Whose interests would that serve except the road lobby?

The presence or absence of the yellow panel has nothing at all to do with its travelling by rail to the UK. After all, it would be hauled as part of a train, and not travel under its own power, it being highly unlikely that there being any drivers with both the requisite traction and route knowledge for the route from Berlin to Frethun. 

[The Stationmaster]

My comment was made in the context of a thread about 59003 returning to the UK and the potential requirement for it to have a yellow panel to be able to come by rail through the Tunnel. The lack of it should not in my opinion be a stumbling block especially since Group Standards don't require it. Surely what matters is that a train is as visible as possible to all on its approach. If a yellow panel can be dispensed with because a better level of visibility can be achieved by other means, surely that is better for track workers and anyone else on the railway.

 

The question of interoperability has also been raised. Continental railways have used decent headlights on locos for far longer than they have been in the UK so they developed visibility requirements without them. Cross border rail traffic in Europe sees locos operating under many different safety regimes and if the UK is to properly join in through better usage of the Channel Tunnel I would certainly hope that the absence of a yellow panel on a loco that meets applicable EU interoperability standards, CT and Group Standards would not be used as a reason to stop it operating on Network Rail. Whose interests would that serve except the road lobby?

Simple situation is that Railway Group Standards require a suitable yellow panel (of not less that 1 square metre and not less than 0.6m in any axis, but with allowances also made for variation on gangway ends etc).  That is a requirement as part of obtaining a UK Safety Case and is no different from, say, a requirement to fit AWS etc to operate in Britain or the equivalent in any other European country.  And of course when SNCF locos operated into Britain they were duly given yellow panels so it would hardly seem an imposition to apply a patch of paint to the appropriate spec or in a colour which matches those in the spec.

 

Let's face if somebody is going to go to the trouble of building or buying a loco which will fit UK Loading Gauge and equip it with AWS etc a patch of yellow paint is probably the last item where the cost is going to worry them.

[brushman47544]

Happy to stand corrected; I thought the specific yellow panel requirement had been replaced by visibility criteria. But one point I was trying to make remains. If someone manufactures, for example, a loco to haul trains all the way from the UK through France to Italy, it would be a nonsense if say the Italians were to insist on a red panel and the UK a yellow one. That's one reason for EU interoperability standards that are goal based. Prescription at yellow panel level that could, however unlikely due to other factors, lose traffic to rail because of the need for extra costly loco changes that might result.

[Steadfast]

Plenty of locos out there on the Continent with both a Dutch white or yellow panel and an Italian red buffer beam/stripe so its not beyond the realms of possibility.

Although I don't work trackside, from experience photographing trains, I agree with the comments about lights and panels, you see the light first, then as the yellow panel comes into clear view its much easier to judge speed, which line etc.

 

jo

[The Stationmaster]

Happy to stand corrected; I thought the specific yellow panel requirement had been replaced by visibility criteria. But one point I was trying to make remains. If someone manufactures, for example, a loco to haul trains all the way from the UK through France to Italy, it would be a nonsense if say the Italians were to insist on a red panel and the UK a yellow one. That's one reason for EU interoperability standards that are goal based. Prescription at yellow panel level that could, however unlikely due to other factors, lose traffic to rail because of the need for extra costly loco changes that might result.

The yellow panel as it once was has indeed been replaced by visibility criteria and requirements - which include a 1 square metre yellow panel.  Also note that UK headlight provision differs from that in various countries as well but I think switching circuitry etc could easily solve that difference.

[big jim]

As for UK operations getting paths, one (DB) will have no problems. Once you have a path then what? Where do you get traction? Please sir may I hire a locofromyou to compete against you? No way. Train crew? where do you get these from? Remember they need route knowledge and traction knowledge

 Mike

 

 

you would be surprised how much back scratching goes on (at a price), ive driven EWS and freightliner locos when we have needed one to hire, i've also moved a 59 dit on one of our services to get it back to westbury for schenker

 

 

 

My comment was made in the context of a thread about 59003 returning to the UK and the potential requirement for it to have a yellow panel to be able to come by rail through the Tunnel. The lack of it should not in my opinion be a stumbling block especially since Group Standards don't require it.

 

The question of interoperability has also been raised.

as pointed out by fat controller it wont need a yellow panel as it would be DIT, not like every wagon or coach has to have yellow ends is it

 

as for interoperability, i should imagine the lack of GSM-R would be a pretty good place to start on the list of why it cant run on UK metals as it stands (gsm came about a lot later than when the 59 left the country), not sure what the cab equipment is like either, whether it has aws still fitted, dsd, vigilance etc

 

going back to traction knowledge, im pretty sure GBRf would have to have 59s on its own safety case before it could be driven by one of their own drivers if it was useable?

[Michael Delamar]

Here she is at Immingham Mineral Quay yesterday morning. Pic from GBrailfreight facebook.

 

 

 

[Southernman46]

Plenty of locos out there on the Continent with both a Dutch white or yellow panel and an Italian red buffer beam/stripe so its not beyond the realms of possibility.

Although I don't work trackside, from experience photographing trains, I agree with the comments about lights and panels, you see the light first, then as the yellow panel comes into clear view its much easier to judge speed, which line etc.

 

jo

Quite right - natural progression

 

pre-1964 - no yellow

1964 - 1968 - SYP

1968 - 1980 ish - FYE

post 1980 - headlights - yellow area relaxations

post 2003 - 2nd generation headlights - yellow not really required at all

post 20?? - trains too fast - yellow a waste of time - don't let staff on track whilst trains are running

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Superb picture.

 

Intereting to see that the original "Yeoman" cast numberplates have survived the European excursion.

[admiles]

Hope it's in a better state mechanically than it is cosmetically! Poor old thing....

[jjb1970]

The yellow warning panel is one of those things which is low cost and is considered useful by many of those who it was intended to assist such as track workers therefore I really see no valid reason to remove it other than objections based on aesthetics. If track workers find it is still valuable then it should be retained, personally I think the yellow end add a splash of brightness and colour to trains and like it.

[4630]

There a path in the system from Immingham to Eastleigh on 13th October, presumably for something towing 59003.

 

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/R02172/2014/10/13/advanced

[phil-b259]

Quite right - natural progression

 

post 20?? - trains too fast - yellow a waste of time - don't let staff on track whilst trains are running

 

OK YOU try telling hundreds of frustrated commuters waiting for delayed trains 'oh you are now going to be even later because we need to shut down an entire bit of railway because something has gone wrong (e.g. the entire GWML simply because there is a problem with the up relief) and lets see how long you last

 

Having just spent a couple of busy and very soggy 12hr days out there on fixing broken stuff, including crossing and walking alongside lines which are open at full linespeed, all you lot that think from the comfort of your armchairs that we should get rid of yellow can g*t s****d. NOTHING I have seen IN ANY publication / group standard, etc is as effective in helping you to judge distance is a big slab of yellow and its about time people recognised the fact rather than endlessly thinking of excuses as to why we can get rid of it. I couldn't care less that some office bureaucrat, EU directive drafter, cooperate stylist, other railway administrations overseas, or amateur livery artist thinks its 'not needed' - they are not the ones who have to actually go on NR dodge trains for a living.

 

As for 59003, untill it gets ftted with GSM-R  & TPWS, has its AWS reinstated PLUS YELLOW WARNING PANELS it is not allowed to act as a locomotive on NR infrastructure and will have to be towed.

 

Long may that continue to be the case.

[Bon Accord]

OK YOU try telling hundreds of frustrated commuters waiting for delayed trains 'oh you are now going to be even later because we need to shut down an entire bit of railway because something has gone wrong (e.g. the entire GWML simply because there is a problem with the up relief) and lets see how long you last

Entire lines are blockaded for weekends and longer with TOC's simply throwing in the towel completely rather than trying to arrange diversions for work that in the past would either be done overnight, fractionally or whilst the other line was open, so I'd imagine those passenger facing types have plenty of practice in dealing with the disgruntled public,

 

 

Having just spent a couple of busy and very soggy 12hr days out there on fixing broken stuff, including crossing and walking alongside lines which are open at full linespeed, all you lot that think from the comfort of your armchairs that we should get rid of yellow can g*t s****d. NOTHING I have seen IN ANY publication / group standard, etc is as effective in helping you to judge distance is a big slab of yellow and its about time people recognised the fact rather than endlessly thinking of excuses as to why we can get rid of it. I couldn't care less that some office bureaucrat, EU directive drafter, cooperate stylist, other railway administrations overseas, or amateur livery artist thinks its 'not needed' - they are not the ones who have to actually go on NR dodge trains for a living.

 

Yellow is merely a product of a 1960s notion on visibility which has persevered to the present, so much so that like many other industries, the workforce is regimented in the notion that it's the only way to do the job when in fact a more brazen and noticeable colour would probably better serve those it's intended to help, e.g a fluorescent orange/red which is better suited to judging speed/distance and which is much more noticeable at distance.

[The Stationmaster]

 

 

Yellow is merely a product of a 1960s notion on visibility which has persevered to the present, so much so that like many other industries, the workforce is regimented in the notion that it's the only way to do the job when in fact a more brazen and noticeable colour would probably better serve those it's intended to help, e.g a fluorescent orange/red which is better suited to judging speed/distance and which is much more noticeable at distance.

Not exactly so - the whole process has been reviewed (at least twice to my knowledge), the colour impact has been assessed and various changes made.  At one time I understand the intention was to completely dispense with the yellow (hence certain stock appearing without design provision for it) and rely on lights instead but for some reason the lighting was rejected - possibly because numerous traction units would require modification?  So the yellow patch remains, with specified colours to be used.

[Fat Controller]

Fluorescent orange ends were applied to some BR Type 2s in the Teesside area as an experiment during the 1960s; the idea was not pursued. 

[phil-b259]

Yellow is merely a product of a 1960s notion on visibility which has persevered to the present, so much so that like many other industries, the workforce is regimented in the notion that it's the only way to do the job when in fact a more brazen and noticeable colour would probably better serve those it's intended to help, e.g a fluorescent orange/red which is better suited to judging speed/distance and which is much more noticeable at distance.

 

Are you a track worker and have you any experience of standing out there in the 4ft looking for approaching trains then making the call to get your colleagues to a place of safety, particularly on overcast damp days like today?

 

If not then your opinions are completely irreverent. I don't care whether you think red, pink or a full rainbow is best at present yellow works fine for me and countless other trackworkers so its should stay.

 

 

Entire lines are blockaded for weekends and longer with TOC's simply throwing in the towel completely rather than trying to arrange diversions for work that in the past would either be done overnight, fractionally or whilst the other line was open, so I'd imagine those passenger facing types have plenty of practice in dealing with the disgruntled public,

 

 

On a 4 track railway very often FAULTS only affect one line, yet usually we require access across all lines at site to trace cables, inspect location cases and suchlike. It is IMPOSSIBLE to shut down a busy mainline for hours on end simply to let us wander where we like, or say OK "Stuff the passengers lets leave the failure in place till the middle of the night to sort" (which very often causes yet more problems with pre-planned possessions / forced line blockages because its dark / making sorting the failure difficult). On our busy main lines like the GWM or the BML having just one track suffering from a failure is enough to totally screw the service particularity in the peaks so disruptive failures have to be sorted ASAP. Allowing us to work red zone is a key part of that which REQUIRES giving us the tools to operate safely which includes making the front of trains stand out from the background and so far nothing I have seen works as well as a big yellow area.

 

Also contrary to what the press would like you to believe, railway workers don't enjoy pissing off their customers whenever the opportunity presents itself - in fact disruption makes things far worse including a much increased risk of assaults taking place by disgruntled travellers. Simply shutting up shop, however convenient it may seem is not what railway folk do - they try and sort things as best they can with what is available or is expected to be available. Nobody on the railway is a magician and can instantly produce stock out of thin air, add additional platforms to stations at the click of the fingers, instantly conjurer up more drivers / conductors fully rested and with route knowledge of the entire GB railway system, mend and fully test cables in seconds, divert floodwater with the wave of a hand - all things which the mainstream press and the general public seem to think is easily achievable.

[pitbull1845]

back to 59003 briefly, local gen down my neck of the woods suggests 47815 taking it as far as Barrow Hill and then a pair of 20's down to EH..  Think I might have to be part of the reception committee.

[beast66606]

Come on guys  

[phil-b259]

Not exactly so - the whole process has been reviewed (at least twice to my knowledge), the colour impact has been assessed and various changes made.  At one time I understand the intention was to completely dispense with the yellow (hence certain stock appearing without design provision for it) and rely on lights instead but for some reason the lighting was rejected - possibly because numerous traction units would require modification?  So the yellow patch remains, with specified colours to be used.

 

I think it comes down to, how can I put it, speed assessment. A small light seen from say 1050m away will still look small when it gets to 850m away. A 1m yellow panel by contrast, will be seen to have 'grown' significantly between 1050m and 850m. To replicate this effect with lights you would need to literally cover the front of trains with lots of lights (i.e. create a 1m panel of light) to achieve the same effect. It doesn't take a genius to realise that a tin of yellow paint is a much more cost effective solution.