Revised Mk3s?

[Rhys Underwood]

I won't be spending my money on any of the mk3s until Hornby correct them simple as. I was planning to make up a full MML set as a summer extra HST for the layout but as soon as I found out about the buffet it put me right off. I hope they get the FGW ones right as I don't won't to fork out roughly £208 for a set of 8 coaches only for them to have errors.  

Edited January 8, 2015 by Pride Of Carlisle

[tractor_37260]

How did you remove the roof please? (I'm assuming your description above about removing the roof relates to the Lima Mk3).

 

The original Lima MK3 rooves were held/locked in place via the drop lights and the main windows - both being part of the roof moulding.  Removal without damage can be achieved by pushing a thin piece of plasticard or flattened end tooth pick down each corner drop light bottom edge to ease them away from the bodyshell. A small gap should then appear between the roof and bodyside above each end door. Using your thumb nail, ease it into the gap and then run it along the roof/bodyside join, on each side, this will release the main windows and allow the roof to be removed.

 

On the latest Hornby version, as the drop lights appear to be separate from the roof moulding, that step can be missed.

 

A well manicured and non too short thumb-nail is an invaluable modelling tool - and it comes free also !  

Edited January 8, 2015 by tractor_37260

[Derekstuart]

If anyone is interested in my solutions to the following:

Hornby MK3 (various issues) - 8 old lima purchased very cheap from ebay, lazerglazed (in progress) - total cost- about half the Hornby versions

Hornby 31's (chassis and shape) - Lima 31's from ebay. 2 Spare motors to be added to give good performance. - total cost including spare motor bogies- about half the cost of the Hornby

Hornby 60 (looks great, but will the chassis develop the same problems as others?) - Lima 60 from local stockist, with Shawplan bits and pieces. Total about £55

Bachmann 47 rocking chassis - Lima from local stockist. + spare motor bogie from ebay + shawplans etc

 

The above means I have have had to do/ am doing/ will have to do some considerable work to bring the detail up to the same as more modern efforts. But by learning from some of the best on here, it's manageable and at the end of it I can say "I DID THAT".

I'm not trying to be a Hornby/Bachmann basher. But I think if I have to do all that work to make something right then I might as well buy the basic starting unit at a much cheaper price- and in many cases they still look better than the more modern versions. Take the 47 (contraversial point warning) but it measures up far better than the Bachmann in many ways and the bogies are far more accurate (ignoring the additional right side pipes of course!) The tank module needs the same work doing as a Bachmann one anyway- but at 1/3 of the price. I'm afraid Bachmann and Hornby are cooking their gooses.

 

It is a real shame as both Hornby and Bachmann HAVE come up with some really great stuff. But I think for moden manufacturing, they need to look at Realtrack, Rapido et al for guidance.

[magic_monkey09]

Just incase Hornby mess up and put a Smooth roof on the FGW buffet you could always convert one of the TSO's into a Mini buffet by painting out the inside of the first window and adding a yellow stripe. Prototypical as FGW have 19 mini buffet cars and 35 full size buffets I believe.

Edited January 11, 2015 by magic_monkey09

[johnpeter3]

I'd had trouble with my various HSTs and Mk3s derailing - the solution seems to have been to remove the dummy buckeye coupler on the power cars and fit the shortened flexible Dapol-fit couplings into the existing fittings on the Mk3 bogie (R8099 - http://www.Hornby.com/coupling-assembly-pack.html, available from retailers).  I'd prefer close coupling but a set that runs reliably without derailing is my main aim.

 

As for the Eastern Region mk3s with lights, I'm tempted to remove the lights altogether from my set.  A plea to Hornby - if you're doing more coaches with lighting, please use longer light bars to cover at least all of the passenger area. 

 

JP

[Opelsi]

Just a thought - and I may be a daft one - might I be able to swap the light bar from the Hornby MK3 into the Hornby MK2E (or even older MK2D for that matter), to make a convincing fully lit coach, or would it still be a case of the light bar being too short?

['CHARD]

Yes same issues, evidence of glue on the paintwork too. Thankfully I had the opportunity to pick and choose from a selection of each coach when buying, although I have to say the fit of the windows is pretty much spot on compared to the re-released batch of FGW dynamic lines coaches last year, they were terrible, windows only glued along the bottom so none were fitted fully 'home'.

 

The plastic quality itself is different to older examples too, I detect recycled plastic. 

 

Not wanting to take sides, as all manufacturers have different models I want, but Bachmann don't suffer from any of the issues on these MK3s. Hornby need to obtain some Bachmann coaches, and take note on how a quality model is put together, and the quality and thickness of materials used. 

 

Looking down the sides and roofs of all the latest Mk3s, they're not level, undulating at random places. The older models don't suffer from this, and appear to be made of better plastic which is more solid and holds it's shape. 

 

...imagine.  It's 2020.  Hornby has gone for a direct-only selling model to cut out retailers.  Every model you order is a quality lottery.  

 

Sounds to me like a theme for another thread currently running elsewhere on here.  

[Derekstuart]

I wish I'd remembered about this thread before I put my last comment on the other one!

 

It just goes to show that they CAN produce A1 quality, but not consistently.

 

...imagine.  It's 2020.  Hornby has gone for a direct-only selling model to cut out retailers.  Every model you order is a quality lottery.  

 

Sounds to me like a theme for another thread currently running elsewhere on here.  

[Lochnagar]

Just incase Hornby mess up and put a Smooth roof on the FGW buffet you could always convert one of the TSO's into a Mini buffet by painting out the inside of the first window and adding a yellow stripe. Prototypical as FGW have 19 mini buffet cars and 35 full size buffets I believe.

That's what I've done, as soon as I realised buffets were going for up to £300. 

['CHARD]

That's what I've done, as soon as I realised buffets were going for up to £300. 

 

 

£300?????????????

[Rhys Underwood]

£300?????????????

And I got mine for £19 brand new last year...

[Derekstuart]

Is that £300 on ebay by any chance? People will "buy" ridiculous priced things on there (just don't ask whether they ever turned up with money to pay it)

[mossdp]

Received this reply 13 Jan 2015 from Hornby after a few weeks on the subject of the missing vents on the Mk3 buffet car roof:

 

"Thank you for your enquiry, and apologies for the delay in replying to you.

We can confirm that we have spoken to our Engineering Dept about this matter, and they have confirmed that it is not a Q.C. issue. As you may be aware, Hornby has been in the process of moving it's manufacturing from one supplier to several others. During the course of this, a number of toolings have been found to no longer be available. When the run of Mk3 coaches was commissioned, it was not appreciated at the time that the buffet car roof was one of these toolings. When it became apparent, a decision was taken to manufacture the coach with the roof that was available, rather than hold up the entire run of Mk3's for an indefinite period.

As a result, the buffet car does indeed have an incorrect roof. We have checked with Engineering, and there is no intention at present to produce a replacement body for this vehicle. It is anticipated that the buffet car roof will be re-tooled in the future."

[jonathan452]

Therefore in other words one will have get hold of a Lima Midland Mainline TRUB (three window buffet) and fit flush glazing.

 

Ditto the TGS on account of the cant rail livery error.

 

Just glad I wasn't after the Midland Mainline or Executive Mk3's.

Edited January 13, 2015 by jonathan452

[Derekstuart]

Not a QC issue? "We didn't spot a glaring issue- but it's not QC"?

 

Their response would have been credible only if they had put a disclaimer to that effect BEFORE it was sold "we have chosen to model this with the tooling available now, but be aware it is not 100% correct" label on the box/website.

 

Is that the same response to them putting a buffet interior in the TGS as well I wonder?

[Rhys Underwood]

As someone said to me just before Christmas Hornby could not organise a party in a brewery. In my opinion that statement sums up the issues we have with the MK3s. I'm just glad I've two 5 coach rakes before the issues started to appear. As it seams Hornby are not going to sort the issue with the buffet car anytime soon I think I might be going down the mini buffet route of my second set in FGW.      

[surfsup]

Received this reply 13 Jan 2015 from Hornby after a few weeks on the subject of the missing vents on the Mk3 buffet car roof:

 

"Thank you for your enquiry, and apologies for the delay in replying to you.

We can confirm that we have spoken to our Engineering Dept about this matter, and they have confirmed that it is not a Q.C. issue. As you may be aware, Hornby has been in the process of moving it's manufacturing from one supplier to several others. During the course of this, a number of toolings have been found to no longer be available. When the run of Mk3 coaches was commissioned, it was not appreciated at the time that the buffet car roof was one of these toolings. When it became apparent, a decision was taken to manufacture the coach with the roof that was available, rather than hold up the entire run of Mk3's for an indefinite period.

As a result, the buffet car does indeed have an incorrect roof. We have checked with Engineering, and there is no intention at present to produce a replacement body for this vehicle. It is anticipated that the buffet car roof will be re-tooled in the future."

Hmm, Another disappointing answer from Hornby over what really should have been noticed before the Mk3's hit the shelves. Are Hornby becoming less bothered about keeping on top of potential QC Issues by leaving it all up to the Chinese factories before signing off production? Surely a retooled roof would have hardly taken that long to fix, and include the catering vents? Unfortunately to me, this answer just seems like a 'Thank you for spotting the lack of catering vents, unfortunately we cannot be bothered to fix this rather glaring issue at this present time but we might do something about it in the future if enough people complain. Thank you for purchasing our still inaccurate models, Hornby.' I have to wonder how the likes of Bachmann - who once infamously commissioned a new batch of VDA Van bodies because of a misprinting of VBA over VDA or Realtrack would have dealt with this situation.

 

I think I'll just stick to converting an existing and correct Buffet into my FGW rake's instead then.

[wombatofludham]

Just goes to confirm my view that Hornby are simply not interested in anyone modelling post 1960-ish and assume that the only people interested in correctly detailed models are those modelling steam.  Can you imagine the outcry here if the precious Pullmans had been produced with a roof devoid of vents?  Multiple iterations of Pullmans with seemingly minor detail variations?  Of course and we'll make sure that the roof is exactly as it was on the 14th September 1937 at 2pm.  Putting any vents on the Mk3 buffet?  Forget it, you'll have what you get and be grateful, after all, you're not real modellers, it'll look ok on your train-set.

 

It's bordering on contempt for the customer.

Edited January 14, 2015 by wombatofludham

[GordonC]

I think thats just a pretty disgraceful reply and shows how little they care about what they're producing and trying to flog off to us numpties. They actually found out before the models were produced, but still went ahead anyway. How hard can it be to re-tool the roof? Presumably they'd have drawings, or CAD already or even worst case go find a Hornby buffet off Ebay to copy!!

 

I had been intending getting Eastern Region and Intercity Executive rakes ... dont think I'll bother now. I'm happy to wait for a definitive Loco-Hauled Mk3 rather than Hornbys railroad attempt

[royaloak]

After purchasing a complete Midland mainline rake it is nice to know exactly what Hornby thinks about me as a customer!

I have pre-ordered an FGW 153 and the MML PCs and I think they will be the last things I buy from this bunch of <deleted>.

[Derekstuart]

There are a many fine quality restuarants around the world. In Britain, none finer than some of those found in the West end of London.

 

There are also countless fast food outlets, in most towns and cities and catering to the mass easy cuisine.

 

The West end restuarants will win all the awards from the "lah dhe da" brigade, but the reality is that the fast food takeaways is a FAR bigger and more profitable market.

 

(you could use the same comment about premium cars, such as Jaguar and Aston Martin compared to Vauxhall and Ford)

 

It seems obvious to me from that type of statement and those made by Mr Kohler of late, that Hornby is going down the toy train route in the end. Perhaps that is a good thing in the end if Hornby and Bachmann each find their own end of the market without competition then it may be more sustainable in the long term. Certainly Hornby's widely circulated idea of getting rid of handrails, sprung buffers etc AND increasing prices is not realistic and will backfire.

 

3D printing is getting better and cheaper. It won't be that long before people are designing more complicated whole bodies and having them printed (IN COLOUR))... then there will undoubtedly be a small army of semi-professional modellers who will build up the parts you've printed and attach to a suitable chassis.

 

If you look back over the past 20 years, the technological changes are staggering. What will 2035- or even 2025 see?

[Lochnagar]

Received this reply 13 Jan 2015 from Hornby after a few weeks on the subject of the missing vents on the Mk3 buffet car roof:

 

"Thank you for your enquiry, and apologies for the delay in replying to you.

We can confirm that we have spoken to our Engineering Dept about this matter, and they have confirmed that it is not a Q.C. issue. As you may be aware, Hornby has been in the process of moving it's manufacturing from one supplier to several others. During the course of this, a number of toolings have been found to no longer be available. When the run of Mk3 coaches was commissioned, it was not appreciated at the time that the buffet car roof was one of these toolings. When it became apparent, a decision was taken to manufacture the coach with the roof that was available, rather than hold up the entire run of Mk3's for an indefinite period.

As a result, the buffet car does indeed have an incorrect roof. We have checked with Engineering, and there is no intention at present to produce a replacement body for this vehicle. It is anticipated that the buffet car roof will be re-tooled in the future."

 

Hmmm. Sounds like the buffet tool, and the TGS seating tool are still the property of Sander Kan and Hornby haven't paid to release or purchase them (or whatever version of tooling ownership arrangement exists). Therefore they've produced a new buffet tool from the single generic MK3 tool. It's still weird, the roof itself must be a tooling slide. .(which they haven't got). 

 

Not the most reassuring reply from "the best toy and hobby company in the world" or whatever slogan their website says. Q.C is there so we don't have anything to moan about, and stupid things like this don't happen. 

[Removed a/c]

Still expect us to pay full whack for them though ! 

[phil-b259]

Not a QC issue? "We didn't spot a glaring issue- but it's not QC"?

 

Their response would have been credible only if they had put a disclaimer to that effect BEFORE it was sold "we have chosen to model this with the tooling available now, but be aware it is not 100% correct" label on the box/website.

 

Is that the same response to them putting a buffet interior in the TGS as well I wonder?

 

Being pedantic for a moment, IF Hornby were advised that the correct roof did not exist BEFORE production commenced and Hornby themselves OKed use the roof from a TSO or whatever, then technically the Chinese factory has in fact delivered exactly what Hornby have asked them to and it cannot be said to be a QC issue. If on the other hand the factory went ahead without Hornby's permission then yes the product could be said to have failed QC (the point of which is not to identify whether something is correct to prototype - QC is does the item match the specification the person who ordered them requests including any variation that is mutually agreed by both parties).

 

The big issue here is that if Hornby are telling the truth and they deliberately elected to get the Chinese to fit an incorrect roof then the decision to do so should have been acknowledged at the time the decision was made (not months later when the models actually arrived) through their website plus a message sent out to all retailers due to receive stocks of the item so as to allow potential purchasers to make a decision whether this is acceptable to them or not.

 

We should also beer in mind that while most modellers will obviously not wish to buy inaccurate models, and notwithstanding the fact that there are lots of modellers who had been looking forward to further Mk3s being released, certain sections of the market won't care about the issue and as such you can see why Hornby will have wished to bring the affected coaches to market and earn some money out of them.

Edited January 16, 2015 by phil-b259

[NickL2008]

Its silly errors like that, that make me glad im using Lima mk 3s for my HST im doing, easy to find and cheaper as well ... £300 for a coach, that's just taking the Michael!!

 

NL