Revised Mk3s?

[surfsup]

The three window (TRUB) buffet is the Hornby (not Limby) tooling. Therefore the body and roof is a one piece moulding.

 

Just can't get over this latest avoidable QC issue.

 

Although I wasn't after these particular Mk3's, this (along with the Mk2e issues) has really put me off wanting to buy any more Hornby items.

 

Do we know which factory they came from?

 

Has anybody contacted Hornby yet?

 

Any response?

 

 

No roof vents showing on the buffet in this 2015 release either: http://www.Hornby.com/shop/new-for-2015/coaches/br-mk3-intercity-coach-pack.html

The ex Limby one I could just about understand as the vents were added on, but to miss them out of the moulded 1 piece Hornby tooling is frankly bizarre - unless the coach has been retooled at some point and the vents 'forgotten' about.

 

Noticed them missing off on the BR Blue versions, but left on on the FGW TRFB - Unless the FGW Mk3 is a stock image reused from the last batch of FGW Mk3s produced a few years ago?

 

I wonder if they'll come out with tinted glazing and the correct original version of the Dyanmic Lines this time too, unlike the washed out 'Dynamic Lines' that came out on the second batch.

[Lochnagar]

This missing roof vent issue on the buffet cars is bizarre. I've just noticed it and this thread appeared after some poking around on the issue. I have to say, I don't understand this one! The only possible explanation in my eyes is that the buffet tooling for the 2000 Hornby origin model has been damaged, and replaced with the roof vents mistakenly omitted. I wonder this because some of the more recent offerings (royal train buffet was one) had some examples appearing severely bowed and distorted. Pretty much banana shaped and it couldn't be fixed. 

 

The only other explanation I can think of is that the roof vents are a tooling 'slide' which has been mistakenly omitted. But It doesn't look like a slide to me as they'd be some sort of evidence of it on the mould. And why make a roof slide when the buffet needs a mould of it's own anyway. So I doubt it's that. 

 

If indeed it is a new tool, then someone at Hornby shouldn't be there and needs a final warning about quality control because things are starting to get silly. Dodgy production issues down to workers, yes it happens and it can be sorted. But taking a step backwards messing up an existing tool and spoiling a perfectly serviceable product, no. I mean come on, they've already got models to look at because they make them, and failing that, drawings, google images, or maybe go crazy and find a real one to look at!!! 30 seconds on google images will show anyone that the buffets have a different roof unless they're blindfolded. 

 

Rant over, but my rant will be shared with Hornby via email, as they need to know that whoever is making silly bloopers like this needs sorting out as it's causing and will indeed continue to cause serious if not terminal damage to their reputation if it's allowed to continue. For example, this has given any other company out there a little extra prod to make a 'spot on' MK3. Snowball principle. 

 

Let's hope they don't 'mess up' other existing good products in the range.

 

Dare I even mention the words 'product recall'. I can make roof vents and add them, but shouldn't have to on a brand new item. 

[royaloak]

Dare I even mention the words 'product recall'. I can make roof vents and add them, but shouldn't have to on a brand new item. 

I very much doubt it, it isnt like Hornby to care about things like this is it!

They will just bury their heads in the sand, ignore everything for a while and wait for it all to blow over.

 

There are a lot of liveries with the same omission so it isnt like its a one off is it!

[Derekstuart]

If there's a big enough demand then perhaps Shawplan or Craftsman or similar could be persuaded to make the parts.

 

Yes, I KNOW that's not the point (before anyone says it). And I totally agree that for the price asked, the QC issues on several items are ridiculous.

 

The mouldings never really looked right to me anyway, as they aren't just a solid blob, but instead the vent covers are actually raised about 1" above the carriage roof.

 

If someone has some proper resin casting kit it should be very easy to make replacements cast from a roof that does have them.

 

(or just buy Lima from ebay and invest in laserglaze).

 

 

BTW has the detailing improved on the bogies- ie WSP detectors etc?

[surfsup]

If you don't mind a little bit of work, then the best solution is actually in Hurst Models Mk3 Catering Roof Vents - http://www.shop.hurstmodels.com/dk3001-mk-3-catering-roof-vents-89-p.asp

 

But, these are supposed to be an accurate RTR model and hardly have enough added detail as it is, so why have Hornby managed to make this glaring issue and allow it to slip under the net in the first place!

[Andy W]

It is known that Hornby, as part of the drive to transfer production away from Kader-controlled factories, had new tooling made for quite a few items, either because Kader wouldn't release the original tooling until a final settlement was reached (which happened in summer 2014), or was actually still using it to fulfill delayed orders from previous years, or because it was cheaper or quicker than modifying the existing tooling to work with different moulding machines. Given the lead time new tooling may have been essential to have any product at all to sell.

Not surprising really that errors were made, but they should have been corrected before the product went on sale.

[Derekstuart]

Is Mr Hurst still going? I've heard many people saying that they're struggling to order.

 

As said above **I KNOW** it's not the point. But the option is there for those who want it. The rest can stand in the corner, sulking.

 

If you don't mind a little bit of work, then the best solution is actually in Hurst Models Mk3 Catering Roof Vents - http://www.shop.hurstmodels.com/dk3001-mk-3-catering-roof-vents-89-p.asp

But, these are supposed to be an accurate RTR model and hardly have enough added detail as it is, so why have Hornby managed to make this glaring issue and allow it to slip under the net in the first place!

[Derekstuart]

There is a discussion in another thread about issues with the Chinese production.

 

Who actually owns the tooling ("moulds")- Hornby or the factory? My understanding was that the factory is charged with turning Hornby's CAD files into moulds and then in turn the final product. I would have thought that ownership of the moulds rests with Hornby.

I don't KNOW that, I am assuming. I suspect that there is a certain amount of commonality in factories and thus other factories could re-use the moulds with their own equipment.

 

In a much smaller scale, I recently sent a CAD file to a 3d printing company for them to make the item, but I specified that I would retain the ownership of the file and they could not make copies for others without my permission. In the same way, I'd be very surprised if Hornby had allowed the ownership of the moulds to be transferred to any third party.

 

 

It is known that Hornby, as part of the drive to transfer production away from Kader-controlled factories, had new tooling made for quite a few items, either because Kader wouldn't release the original tooling until a final settlement was reached (which happened in summer 2014), or was actually still using it to fulfill delayed orders from previous years, or because it was cheaper or quicker than modifying the existing tooling to work with different moulding machines. Given the lead time new tooling may have been essential to have any product at all to sell.

Not surprising really that errors were made, but they should have been corrected before the product went on sale.

[BR(S)]

Is Mr Hurst still going? I've heard many people saying that they're struggling to order.

 

The Hurst website says it was last updated 16/12/2014. 

[Derekstuart]

Ah right, I shall have a look again. Thanks.

 

I met Mr Hurst years ago when he used to be active on the exhibition scene. Good, decent chap.

 

I know some of his stuff is perhaps a little dated now compared to other stuff available, but he put his wallet where his mouth was and filled a needed gap. Though it is a little tiresome that so many items are listed as "not currently available- check later" when they have been that way for years and clearly aren't going to be available again.

 

BTW whilst on the subject, has A1 completely disappeared? (I have been on holiday from this hobby since mid 90's and things have changed a bit)

 

The Hurst website says it was last updated 16/12/2014. 

[Andy W]

There is a discussion in another thread about issues with the Chinese production.

 

Who actually owns the tooling ("moulds")- Hornby or the factory? My understanding was that the factory is charged with turning Hornby's CAD files into moulds and then in turn the final product. I would have thought that ownership of the moulds rests with Hornby.

 

I don't KNOW that, I am assuming. I suspect that there is a certain amount of commonality in factories and thus other factories could re-use the moulds with their own equipment.

 

In a much smaller scale, I recently sent a CAD file to a 3d printing company for them to make the item, but I specified that I would retain the ownership of the file and they could not make copies for others without my permission. In the same way, I'd be very surprised if Hornby had allowed the ownership of the moulds to be transferred to any third party.

I too would be surprised if Hornby didn't retain ownership of the moulds all along. However if you look back in this forum you'll see discussion of a financial settlement in January this year between Hornby and Kader in which Hornby paid Kader in excess of £600,000 in exchange for the release of moulds, components and stock of completed models. Prior to that settlement, Kader were obviously refusing to hand the moulds over until they were paid what was owing to them.

http://online.hemscottir.com/ir/hrn/ir.jsp?page=news-item&item=1680758141878272

is the official statement by Hornby.

At least some of the moulds would have been required by Kader to complete the production referred to in the document, and couldn't have been transferred elsewhere until then.

There has also been a lot of technical discussion here with informed comments from people involved in the plastic moulding industry, and it appears that it is not a simple matter to transfer production from one factory to another unless they are both using similar moulding machines. In many cases adapters can be made and fitted so the mould can be reused on a different model of machine, but this is itself expensive and takes time. In a hard core of cases even this won't work and a new mould is the only option. There is also the likelihood that it would actually be more cost effective to replace a mould now that was nearing the end of its useful life, than to invest in an adaptor and still have to replace the mould in a year or so.

[Derekstuart]

Thanks Andy

 

So basically, Hornby decided they wanted to terminate the contract early. Kader said "no" and held a lien on the moulds until Hornby paid them £600K as compensation for lost profit from the early termination of contract.

 

That does beg the question of WHY they withdrew from the contract. Giving profit to your competitor is not as odd as people think and not justification for termination of contract. Equally, if it was Kader failing to perform, then the Chinese civil courts are probably far more harsh than ours in this respect and Kader wouldn't be able to hold them to ransom.

 

As for the technical issues, that doesn't surprise me at all that it's cheaper to make new moulds compared to modifying the old ones.

 

I wonder if the issue is one of foreign QC issues or simply that in this day and age, companies (rail operators and model manufacturers alike) are run solely by accountants? In the good old days, the designer at Hornby would probably go over a model with a large magnifying glass and a copy of a blueprint for the prototype. Now I doubt that any of the management at Hornby even know what a BR MK3 coach is, much less that there should be vents on the roof of catering coaches.

[deltic79]

I emailed Hornby over a week ago to complain about the mess they've made of the buffet roof and asked whether replacements will be made available. I've yet to receive a reply and I imagine my complaint will shortly be lost in the pile of mince pies in the Hornby office (if indeed it hasn't already).

 

If I ever get a response I'll let others know what they say.

 

I see that Southern Pride sell the vents separately so I might have a look at that option.

 

I finally had a response to my email to Hornby about the buffet roofs today. It seems that the change of manufacturers is to blame (as suggested in posts above) and so rather than delay the models while new tooling was made so we could have a model that at least matched the other rakes we may have, they bodged it with what they had available (not strictly the words Hornby used!).

 

I asked whether a replacement roof would be made available (free of charge or otherwise) and it would seem not, so we're stuck with them.

 

So they messed up the livery on the Blue/Grey TRSB and the Exec TRUB (both very basic errors that could have been researched in two minutes using the power of Google), couldn't be bothered to correctly tool the roof for the TRUB (for all new liveries recently released) and the Mk2e coaches are well documented - I really wonder whether the steam fraternity, which I've always assumed to be Hornby's focus and primary market, would accept such errors and let Hornby off so lightly.

 

Assuming they don't make a complete mess of the Exec power cars, they are thankfully the only thing on my wishlist that Hornby have in the pipeline and are likely to be my last purchase of a red box until things drastically change.

[Lochnagar]

Just discovered another problem last night with the latest batch of MK3s. . the Intercity Executive liveried TGS. Holding it up to the light I could see 'something' inside, obscuring two windows on one side only. On opening it up, the problem was rather obvious. . and made us laugh

 

 

 

So my TGS has a Lima/Hornby 4 window buffet interior, great! LOL

 

In all seriousness, this is getting daft. Someone at Margate or China needs firing, idiotic errors like this are indicative of people who have no idea what they're making or can't be bothered to do any research at all. Or simply no quality checks whatsoever on the tooling stage. Fair play, normal viewing doesn't give it away due to the tinted windows, but the coaches with lighting you'll definitely see it! Either way it's wrong and would annoy me. 

 

I've checked my MML TGS, which is as normal. But I'm guessing this will affect all executive TGS, and possible some of the newer blue/grey, Arriva, and weathered ex-Virgin models. So if anyone wants to report back on here if their model/s are affected maybe we could all approach Hornby with a list of required TGS interiors. 

 

As it happens I had a TGS interior lying around so I've swapped it, but I'm guessing I'm in the minority. Also the ex Lima Mk3s are quite difficult to crack open without causing damage, took me a good 10 minutes to open it up and get the seating out. Slide a knife/plasticard between the cantrail roof join and pull the bodyside away and outwards from the windows, the windows act as clips for the roof and come out as one. 

 

Not impressed, another pointless Homer Simpson style 'D'oh' moment from a company apparently trying to disappear up it's own behind with silly mistakes. I don't like saying that, because the products of 5 years ago were superb, such a shame. 

Edited January 8, 2015 by Lochnagar

[James Makin]

Haha you couldn't make it up!

 

I don't know about you but I've noticed a lot of the my recent batches of Mk3s having excess glue and some fingerprint evidence around the new windows - I've recently bought a Midland Mainline set, plus some of the debranded Virgin and 80's IC coaches for projects - I had to pick my examples carefully from the shelves as many had glue defects clearly visible through the box packaging!

[Lochnagar]

Yes same issues, evidence of glue on the paintwork too. Thankfully I had the opportunity to pick and choose from a selection of each coach when buying, although I have to say the fit of the windows is pretty much spot on compared to the re-released batch of FGW dynamic lines coaches last year, they were terrible, windows only glued along the bottom so none were fitted fully 'home'.

 

The plastic quality itself is different to older examples too, I detect recycled plastic. 

 

Not wanting to take sides, as all manufacturers have different models I want, but Bachmann don't suffer from any of the issues on these MK3s. Hornby need to obtain some Bachmann coaches, and take note on how a quality model is put together, and the quality and thickness of materials used. 

 

Looking down the sides and roofs of all the latest Mk3s, they're not level, undulating at random places. The older models don't suffer from this, and appear to be made of better plastic which is more solid and holds it's shape. 

[owentherail]

I'll stick to my older Hornby Mk3s rather than replace with newer ones and keep my lima intercity Mk3s ready for the power cars later in year.

[sub39h]

Reading all this makes me glad I've stuck with Lima Mk3s! 

 

Just discovered another problem last night with the latest batch of MK3s. . the Intercity Executive liveried TGS. Holding it up to the light I could see 'something' inside, obscuring two windows on one side only. On opening it up, the problem was rather obvious. . and made us laugh

 

IMG_3523.jpg

 

IMG_3528.jpg

 

So my TGS has a Lima/Hornby 4 window buffet interior, great! LOL

 

In all seriousness, this is getting daft. Someone at Margate or China needs firing, idiotic errors like this are indicative of people who have no idea what they're making or can't be bothered to do any research at all. Or simply no quality checks whatsoever on the tooling stage. Fair play, normal viewing doesn't give it away due to the tinted windows, but the coaches with lighting you'll definitely see it! Either way it's wrong and would annoy me. 

 

I've checked my MML TGS, which is as normal. But I'm guessing this will affect all executive TGS, and possible some of the newer blue/grey, Arriva, and weathered ex-Virgin models. So if anyone wants to report back on here if their model/s are affected maybe we could all approach Hornby with a list of required TGS interiors. 

 

As it happens I had a TGS interior lying around so I've swapped it, but I'm guessing I'm in the minority. Also the ex Lima Mk3s are quite difficult to crack open without causing damage, took me a good 10 minutes to open it up and get the seating out. Slide a knife/plasticard between the cantrail roof join and pull the bodyside away and outwards from the windows, the windows act as clips for the roof and come out as one. 

 

Not impressed, another pointless Homer Simpson style 'D'oh' moment from a company apparently trying to disappear up it's own behind with silly mistakes. I don't like saying that, because the products of 5 years ago were superb, such a shame. 

 

Where did you buy this from? Surely it can be returned as it is clearly defective? If enough people actually return these then maybe Hornby will learn their lesson. 

[Waverley West]

Just discovered another problem last night with the latest batch of MK3s. . the Intercity Executive liveried TGS. Holding it up to the light I could see 'something' inside, obscuring two windows on one side only. On opening it up, the problem was rather obvious. . and made us laugh

 

IMG_3523.jpg

 

IMG_3528.jpg

 

So my TGS has a Lima/Hornby 4 window buffet interior, great! LOL

 

In all seriousness, this is getting daft. Someone at Margate or China needs firing, idiotic errors like this are indicative of people who have no idea what they're making or can't be bothered to do any research at all. Or simply no quality checks whatsoever on the tooling stage. Fair play, normal viewing doesn't give it away due to the tinted windows, but the coaches with lighting you'll definitely see it! Either way it's wrong and would annoy me. 

 

 

 

That is both sad and funny at the same time.

 

Over the years, I have always been keen to replace my old stock as new models have come out, even if they had their faults (such as the Heljan 47 for example), but all the various issues associated with the latest Mk 2's and Mk 3's have made me change my approach. I will now be carrying on upgrading my existing Mk 3's (and Mk 2d's) and wait and see what Bachmann come up with their Mk 2f's. 

 

It's such a shame, as I was really hoping that Hornby were about to turn a corner as far as my modelling era is concerned (i.e. mainly 70s to 90s, a period which they have long seemingly considered holds little interest for them).

Edited January 8, 2015 by Waverley West

[Ron Ron Ron]

Might it be time to think about disposing of your mk3's; or holding fire on purchasing the new Hornby issues???????

 

 

 

p.s. Could there be new super detailed ones in the offing?

Edited January 8, 2015 by Ron Ron Ron

[BR(S)]

Just discovered another problem last night with the latest batch of MK3s. . the Intercity Executive liveried TGS. Holding it up to the light I could see 'something' inside, obscuring two windows on one side only. On opening it up, the problem was rather obvious. . and made us laugh

 

IMG_3523.jpg

 

IMG_3528.jpg

 

So my TGS has a Lima/Hornby 4 window buffet interior, great! LOL

 

Just checked mine after your posting and it has the same interior.  Hadn't noticed it until now, mostly due to the tinted glazing.

 

How did you remove the roof please? (I'm assuming your description above about removing the roof relates to the Lima Mk3).

 

Where did you buy this from? Surely it can be returned as it is clearly defective? If enough people actually return these then maybe Hornby will learn their lesson. 

 

I agree with you in principle but for me a) I've already done some work on the coach that I'm really happy with (painted the roof and underframe, cut off the buffers, painted the end door frames, fitted a close coupling) and b ) it would be a hassle to return it compared to the error that has occurred.

 

The reason given above for the wrong roof on the buffet does come across as a "toy train" company rather than one for the "serious modeller".  Hornby used to be for both. 

Edited January 8, 2015 by BR(S)

[surfsup]

Just checked mine after your posting and it has the same interior.  Hadn't noticed it until now, mostly due to the tinted glazing.

 

How did you remove the roof please? (I'm assuming your description above about removing the roof relates to the Lima Mk3).

 

 

I agree with you in principle but for me a) I've already done some work on the coach that I'm really happy with (painted the roof and underframe, cut off the buffers, painted the end door frames, fitted a close coupling) and b ) it would be a hassle to return it compared to the error that has occurred.

 

The reason given above for the wrong roof on the buffet does come across as a "toy train" company rather than one for the "serious modeller".  Hornby used to be for both.

As these TGS are the ex Lima tooling then the way to remove the roof should be as described - But beware, as I've found out the roof plastic can be brittle with some of the TGS roofs and cause it to crack or as I've found out, split entirely.

 

What I'm also intrigued at, Did you modify the door & toilet windows Lochnagar or has Hornby separated that from the roof / window tooling? Either way, as funny as it is it really isn't acceptable from Hornby and the business with these newer Mk3s over this past year is becoming something of a serious farce - We've had poorly glued in windows, glue on the coaches, paint finishes - the rather washed out looking Dynamic Lines for example, Buffet cars with missing catering vents, Buffet car interiors finding their way into TGS's - Impromptu Mini Buffet perhaps? Light Bars only covering 1 third of the coach and now potential plastic issues with the coaches themselves. All this really isn't inspiring confidence in me from Hornby, and if Nat Southworth's comments are to be believed that Hornby is doing all it can to turn a corner, it's saying to me at the very least that that corner is still taking a long while to turn while dropping questionable clangers of quality along the way. For me, for now, I'll stick to modifying a mixture of earlier Top Link, Lima & Jouef Mk3s because I know the quality is better!

 

As an aside, I still find the Jouef Mk3 impressive for it's age - The shape seems better, the Roe Vacs look well modelled for a Mk3 A and most surprisingly detailed are the bogies. Lima's isn't bad but Hornby's are too blocky and moulded. Overall, it's not bad for a coach put together in the 1970s & 80s!

[Removed a/c]

This is just nuts !!  I bought the western Mk3s a year ago or so while waiting for the power cars. The TGS and buffet were not released at the same time as the TSO & FO. Unfortunately funds were not available when the power cars came out and I missed them. No problem I thought I will get the executive ones and run with blue & grey cars. Then they released the buffet and TGS in blue grey but lit and tinted windows so they don't match either, no problem I though I will get an executive buffet and TGS but these are tinted also and now now roof vents nor proper seating !!! 

 

I think I may just give the HSTs a miss. Yooooo  hooooo..............Mr. Bachmann any chance of a correct HST set? 

Edited January 8, 2015 by thebritfarmer

[BR(S)]

I think I may just give the HSTs a miss. Yooooo  hooooo..............Mr. Bachmann any chance of a correct HST set? 

 

It's a great shame that Hornby continue to make these silly erros as, with the little bit of simple work I did on my TGS applied to the other coaches, you could actually have a decent looking HST.    

[Lochnagar]

As these TGS are the ex Lima tooling then the way to remove the roof should be as described - But beware, as I've found out the roof plastic can be brittle with some of the TGS roofs and cause it to crack or as I've found out, split entirely.

 

What I'm also intrigued at, Did you modify the door & toilet windows Lochnagar or has Hornby separated that from the roof / window tooling? Either way, as funny as it is it really isn't acceptable from Hornby and the business with these newer Mk3s over this past year is becoming something of a serious farce - We've had poorly glued in windows, glue on the coaches, paint finishes - the rather washed out looking Dynamic Lines for example, Buffet cars with missing catering vents, Buffet car interiors finding their way into TGS's - Impromptu Mini Buffet perhaps? Light Bars only covering 1 third of the coach and now potential plastic issues with the coaches themselves. All this really isn't inspiring confidence in me from Hornby, and if Nat Southworth's comments are to be believed that Hornby is doing all it can to turn a corner, it's saying to me at the very least that that corner is still taking a long while to turn while dropping questionable clangers of quality along the way. For me, for now, I'll stick to modifying a mixture of earlier Top Link, Lima & Jouef Mk3s because I know the quality is better!

 

As an aside, I still find the Jouef Mk3 impressive for it's age - The shape seems better, the Roe Vacs look well modelled for a Mk3 A and most surprisingly detailed are the bogies. Lima's isn't bad but Hornby's are too blocky and moulded. Overall, it's not bad for a coach put together in the 1970s & 80s!

Pictured exactly as I found it. They've modified the roof so the toilet windows and drop lights are separate. (and have to be removed to get the seating out, as they lock it into position) unless you remove the floor. 

 

The HST power cars are superb and in my eyes can't be bettered. Supply is an issue though, there aren't enough. I just buy them when they come out, even if I can't afford it, as I know once they're gone things go to silly money if you can find them at all. On the plus side, any surplus HST stock sells very well. 

 

I've managed to accumulate 11 full accurate matching sets so far, which wasn't easy. I'm still awaiting the FGW buffet/TGS which will hopefully come this year. Also the exec and MML power cars.