Mr_Tilt Posted April 6, 2017 Share Posted April 6, 2017 I stand corrected there was the 381 series train in 1973 that tilted ,my apologies to our American friends 1973? That was at least two years too late. We had POP-Train tilting under power in July-August 1971, and FIAT weren't that far behind. E-Train was tilting by 1972 as well. 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jitmen Posted April 6, 2017 Share Posted April 6, 2017 Thanks for clearing that up Kit Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonklein611 Posted April 6, 2017 Share Posted April 6, 2017 They might have been a bit confused on the program... The first tilting train in regular public service was the 381 series electric multiple unit train operated by Japanese National Railways (JNR), which entered revenue service on 10 July 1973 on the Shinano limited express between Nagoya and Nagano on the Chūō Main Line. Not first invented, but first to be in service. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr_Tilt Posted April 6, 2017 Share Posted April 6, 2017 They might have been a bit confused on the program... The first tilting train in regular public service was the 381 series electric multiple unit train operated by Japanese National Railways (JNR), which entered revenue service on 10 July 1973 on the Shinano limited express between Nagoya and Nagano on the Chūō Main Line. Not first invented, but first to be in service. But the 381, and its experimental predecessor the 591, used a PASSIVE tilt system, similar in principle to the UAC Turbo-Train, (also modelled by Rapido ) not an active one, as used on both APTs and the Pendelinos. There's all the difference in the world between a passive system and an active one, the tilt rate can't be anywhere near as fast, limiting the train's use to slower services and less cant deficient curves, and the geometry of the vehicle is totally different. The amount of engineering required is vastly more with an active system than a passive system too. The first active tilting train that went into public service was the FIAT ETR 401 that ran between Rome and Ancona in the summer of 1976, ironically about the same time as we were taking the APT-E up to the NRM. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stadman Posted April 6, 2017 Share Posted April 6, 2017 They also showed their new invention, a Maglev train. Don't know who was first but was certainly around in the UK into 1970's (?). Birmingham Int'l to Airport Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonklein611 Posted April 6, 2017 Share Posted April 6, 2017 But the 381, and its experimental predecessor the 591, used a PASSIVE tilt system, similar in principle to the UAC Turbo-Train, (also modelled by Rapido ) not an active one, as used on both APTs and the Pendelinos. There's all the difference in the world between a passive system and an active one, the tilt rate can't be anywhere near as fast, limiting the train's use to slower services and less cant deficient curves, and the geometry of the vehicle is totally different. The amount of engineering required is vastly more with an active system than a passive system too. The first active tilting train that went into public service was the FIAT ETR 401 that ran between Rome and Ancona in the summer of 1976, ironically about the same time as we were taking the APT-E up to the NRM. Technically correct, which is the best kind of correct! I understand the significance in the difference between the two, but I doubt a TV show would go into that detail, hence the info presented. Also, this way there's two firsts, one for Japan and one for Italy! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr_Tilt Posted April 6, 2017 Share Posted April 6, 2017 (edited) Technically correct, which is the best kind of correct! I understand the significance in the difference between the two, but I doubt a TV show would go into that detail, hence the info presented. Also, this way there's two firsts, one for Japan and one for Italy! Actually the JNR 381 wasn't even the first passive tilting train in scheduled service as the UAC TurboTrains went into service in Canada and the USA in 1968. And the first powered active tilting train was POP-Train, although that was anything BUT passenger carrying! In my own experience TV companies tend to generate an internal point of view on a particular subject and stick to it through thick and thin, no matter how many times they're told they're wrong. In my own experience with the BBC's 'One Show' I must have told the presenter three or four times that BR did NOT sell their tilt system technology to FIAT, but the Beeb didn't show my comments on the matter and still maintained that fiction at the end of the programme. I sent them a VERY rude email!!! Edited April 6, 2017 by Mr_Tilt 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr_Tilt Posted April 6, 2017 Share Posted April 6, 2017 They also showed their new invention, a Maglev train. Don't know who was first but was certainly around in the UK into 1970's (?). Birmingham Int'l to Airport BR developed the MagLev system at the RTC in the mid 70s, and the Birmingham Airport Transit system was developed directly from it. But that was a strictly low speed and low capacity system, whereas the JNR MagLev is the exact opposite, being VERY high speed and is intended to carry main line passenger numbers. The RTC MagLev car still exists, together with it's VAST concrete set of points, but I'm not sure where it is these days. It used to be at the Science Museum outstation at Wroughton nr Swindon, but it's been moved apparently. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 6, 2017 Share Posted April 6, 2017 It used to be at the Science Museum outstation at Wroughton nr Swindon, but it's been moved apparently. Well if it's no longer at Wroughton there's a chance of actually being able to see it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
loickebros Posted April 6, 2017 Share Posted April 6, 2017 The RTC MagLev car still exists, together with it's VAST concrete set of points, but I'm not sure where it is these days. It used to be at the Science Museum outstation at Wroughton nr Swindon, but it's been moved apparently. I stand to be corrected but I am pretty sure it is on the Nene valley railway at Peterborough. Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 47137 Posted April 6, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 6, 2017 I stand to be corrected but I am pretty sure it is on the Nene valley railway at Peterborough. Dave The Maglev train is at 'Railworld' in Peterborough, right next to the Nene Valley station in the town: http://www.railworld.net/rtv31.php It's on a short length of the concrete track. Railworld were closed for a big refurbishment when we visited a while back - the opening times are shown on their web site but I suggest phoning before making a trip to make sure they are open. We went many years ago, as a museum it is a bit "different" and we enjoyed it. - Richard. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr_Tilt Posted April 6, 2017 Share Posted April 6, 2017 (edited) We may be at cross-purposes here. The RTV31 vehicle isn't what I was talking about earlier, it's the singular Tracked Hovercraft test vehicle developed in a similar time period to the APT. The RTV31 used hovercraft technology to lift it clear of its track and Linear Induction Motors to move it along, whereas Maglev vehicles use magnetic levitation (the clue is in the title....) to lift them clear of the track and LIMs to move them along. Eric Laithwaite, the moving force behind the Tracked Hovercraft, later developed a dual purpose magnet that would both lift and propel a Maglev vehicle. While the BR Maglev used LIMs as well its maximum speed was only about 30-40 mph, whereas the RTV31 was intended to run at 250 mph. In fact it only managed just over 100 mph but that was on its very short test track. Here's the BR Maglev in the Vehicles Lab at Derby. And here it is on its test track in the RTC Yard. That's Cathy Froud, a friend of mine in there, looking somewhat apprehensively as it approaches the end of the track. Edited April 6, 2017 by Mr_Tilt Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf27 Posted April 6, 2017 Share Posted April 6, 2017 A year ago today this happened! Untitled by Shane Wilton, on Flickr cheers Shane 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shovelto Posted April 7, 2017 Share Posted April 7, 2017 We may be at cross-purposes here. The RTV31 vehicle isn't what I was talking about earlier, it's the singular Tracked Hovercraft test vehicle developed in a similar time period to the APT. The RTV31 used hovercraft technology to lift it clear of its track and Linear Induction Motors to move it along, whereas Maglev vehicles use magnetic levitation (the clue is in the title....) to lift them clear of the track and LIMs to move them along. Eric Laithwaite, the moving force behind the Tracked Hovercraft, later developed a dual purpose magnet that would both lift and propel a Maglev vehicle. While the BR Maglev used LIMs as well its maximum speed was only about 30-40 mph, whereas the RTV31 was intended to run at 250 mph. In fact it only managed just over 100 mph but that was on its very short test track. Here's the BR Maglev in the Vehicles Lab at Derby. And here it is on its test track in the RTC Yard. That's Cathy Froud, a friend of mine in there, looking somewhat apprehensively as it approaches the end of the track. Having a ride on Maglev twixt station and airport was a favourite pastime for our daughter when she visited grandparents who lived in Solihull. It also had the benefit of being free to ride! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ghost of IKB Posted April 7, 2017 Share Posted April 7, 2017 What all these vehicles (apt, maglev, RTV) all show is the wonderful experimental attitude present in the late 60s and 1970s. Looking back it does seem like a brave new world, with engineers thinking big (some possibly crazy) ideas. What do we get now, class 800 and cancelled electrification projects. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stadman Posted April 8, 2017 Share Posted April 8, 2017 What all these vehicles (apt, maglev, RTV) all show is the wonderful experimental attitude present in the late 60s and 1970s. Looking back it does seem like a brave new world, with engineers thinking big (some possibly crazy) ideas. What do we get now, class 800 and cancelled electrification projects. Ah well at least we had supersonic passenger flight, no one has claimed to reinvent that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Ian Smeeton Posted April 8, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 8, 2017 Didn't the Russians have Concordski? Regards Ian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr_Tilt Posted April 8, 2017 Share Posted April 8, 2017 Didn't the Russians have Concordski? Regards Ian Yes, but it wasn't too successful, certainly nowhere near as good as the production Concordes. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Ian J. Posted April 8, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 8, 2017 Ah well at least we had supersonic passenger flight, no one has claimed to reinvent that. Branston Pickle's looking at having another go with the XB-1: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/boom-supersonic-passenger-jet-virgin-richard-branson-london-new-york-concorde-a7420466.html Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Ian J. Posted April 8, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 8, 2017 On a different note, and back on topic, kind of, can anyone tell me if it's possible (still) to get a sound chip, etc, for the APT-E? And if so, is it a straightforward thing to fit? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium ColinK Posted April 8, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 8, 2017 On a different note, and back on topic, kind of, can anyone tell me if it's possible (still) to get a sound chip, etc, for the APT-E? And if so, is it a straightforward thing to fit? I think you need to contact Charlie at DC Kits Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr_Tilt Posted April 8, 2017 Share Posted April 8, 2017 Branston Pickle's looking at having another go with the XB-1: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/boom-supersonic-passenger-jet-virgin-richard-branson-london-new-york-concorde-a7420466.html "Concorde's designers didn't have the technology for affordable supersonic travel, but now we do,” A tad arrogant perhaps? The only thing that stopped the Concordes making money was the scared US and other potential customers who wouldn't put their money down, so there were no economies of scale for BAE etc. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jjb1970 Posted April 8, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 8, 2017 I think the poor economics of Concorde were more as a result of very high fuel consumption and operating costs and its introduction almost coinciding with the oil shock of the early 70's and the paradigm shift in airline operations and economics resulting from the introduction of widebody airliners. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
reevesthecat Posted April 8, 2017 Share Posted April 8, 2017 On a different note, and back on topic, kind of, can anyone tell me if it's possible (still) to get a sound chip, etc, for the APT-E? And if so, is it a straightforward thing to fit? Hi I have just had my APT-E sound fitted ,It had an issue with the lights and while away I asked Simon at S H modelmaking to fit it with sound which he did. Very pleased with the results. Charlie at DC kits provided me with the email address. Mark Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevelewis Posted April 8, 2017 Share Posted April 8, 2017 (edited) Didn't the Russians have Concordski? Regards Ian The Russians did indeed delvelop a SST similar in shape to Concorde but with 2 small winglets at the front end , unfortunately one crashed whilst displaying at the Paris airshow, It went into service 2 years after Concorde in '77 but only did 55 flights as another one crashed so there were no further passenger flights but I seem to remember that they were used within the USSR for a while carrying freight. Some were sold to NASA America where I think they were used as test beds for future development of SSTs Its worth Googling if you are interested. Known as the Tupulev TU 144 a total of 16 were built There is lots of info on Wikipedia and films on You Tube ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- As a Concorde flyer I was very disappointed when Concorde was grounded,, Edited April 8, 2017 by Stevelewis Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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