'CHARD Posted April 17, 2014 Share Posted April 17, 2014 Interesting reading and a highly emotive subject, but I for one do not like to see basically safe user-worked crossings closed in the quest for eradication of vanishingly small risks. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-27037582 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pointstaken Posted April 17, 2014 Share Posted April 17, 2014 IF someone falls down the stairs and breaks their neck and dies, that IMHO does not constitute a requirement they we all move into bungalows or flats. Human existence inevitably carries risk. Dennis Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted April 17, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 17, 2014 Interesting reading and a highly emotive subject, but I for one do not like to see basically safe user-worked crossings closed in the quest for eradication of vanishingly small risks. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-27037582 The problem is that level crossings have now become the most common cause of fatalities on the railway as a result of improvements and changes in just about every other area. Also they have the emotional inconvenience of often involving 'innocent' people who the powers-at-be simply daren't call Darwin Award candidates. Similarly anything which tends to interfere with our god given right to drive a motor vehicle whenever and wherever we want with little or no consideration of road signs and signals meant to regulate our passage must obviously be an invention of the devil to be treated with great caution and to be either removed or hedged around with numerous expensive devices to do what some vehicle drivers can't. In that atmosphere, plus the one of nannying safety and the corporate fear of being sued which pervades this country nowadays level crossings have become a major target for 'safety improvement' and I fear that attitude is unlikely to change as long as ignorance continues to take precedence over common sense. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrestburyJack Posted April 17, 2014 Share Posted April 17, 2014 I was in France only last week, where a single track, overhead electric railway line (presumably 25kV) ran UNFENCED, next to an unfenced country main road, with just a strip of grass between them. Haven't they heard of H&S? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
trisonic Posted April 17, 2014 Share Posted April 17, 2014 There's another crossing 200 metres away.......... Yet most countries of the World do not have their railroads fenced off. Best, Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin_m Posted April 17, 2014 Share Posted April 17, 2014 To be fair, this crossing was the scene of a recent fatal accident. As usual the railway gets the blame if it does one thing and still gets the blame if it does the opposite. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supaned Posted April 17, 2014 Share Posted April 17, 2014 From my own experiences , there seems to be an increase on crossing misuse of late. Classic examples at Stone include the jogger who refused to stop after I sounded the horn , and ran in front of me whilst giving me "the finger" , and the youth with earphones who failed to hear the horn and then stood in the four foot of the up main line (which was open to traffic) as my train was on the down... I have no axe to grind with those who use crossings correctly and safely , but the idiots don't help matters , and those crossings that are frequently misused would perhaps be better off closed for all concerned. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Neil Posted April 17, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 17, 2014 The problem is that level crossings have now become the most common cause of fatalities on the railway as a result of improvements and changes in just about every other area. Also they have the emotional inconvenience of often involving 'innocent' people who the powers-at-be simply daren't call Darwin Award candidates. ..... I long for the day when we can have a discussion about level crossings without the phrase 'Darwin Award' being deployed. Even better to have a realisation that sane, rational, intelligent people, like us, can and do make mistakes and that sometimes these mistakes can have serious or fatal consequences. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supaned Posted April 17, 2014 Share Posted April 17, 2014 People do make mistakes , however , some seem to think that they are invincible , or that 200 tons of train travelling at 90mph can or indeed will stop in a matter of feet - when of course they pay attention from their music or phone. Mistake and accidents are tragic and can and do happen, unfortunately nowadays , some folks seem to be unable to take responsibility for their own actions or safety , and when things do go wrong it's always somebody else's fault. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted April 17, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 17, 2014 Only this afternoon I watched a walker cross in front of a coal train (I was too far away to photograph the .........) - a couple of thousand tonnes of train is going to win every time against the human body, the whistling from the 66 showed the drivers annoyance at the w.....r, the mind boggles as to what that person was thinking, and if they weren't they sure as hell should be when dealing with something which can KILL. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xerces Fobe2 Posted April 18, 2014 Share Posted April 18, 2014 I am sick and fed up of the nanny state in the UK where we have to suffer due to other stupid, selfish narcissitic people who think the world exists for only for them. What next all trains not allowed to open doors at station in case a passenger trips when they attempt to board or leave the train. On the Great Western Mainline in the London area we now have devices to stop people walking down platform ramps, fences down the middle of platforms with locked gates (Taplow Station is one example) so that someone will not through themselves in front of a train. A few weeks ago I was on a train to Leeds when the service was cancelled because someone had jumped off a bridge north of Potters Bar. This is mad bit - the train was sent bcd to Kings Cross we were transferred to the next service which crawled around the Hertford Loop and Peterborough overtaken by the train we had transferred from at Kings Cross. The loonies are in control of this country you would be mad not to agree! XF Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted April 18, 2014 Author Share Posted April 18, 2014 I do agree that the level crossing issue is a spectrum, shading from the lunatic and reckless (Darwin Award if you like, I have watched the Jeremy Kyle show and will never defend those individuals who deserve the term) to the truly tragic. However, accidents do happen. The Mexico Crossing one seems to be a particularly harsh decision because it was safely used probably millions of times and unsafely just once. Now an entire community is deprived of a free choice, and inconvenienced as a result. I work for the modern railway, as many members here know. However, the satisfaction and pleasure I derive from my employment come from extremely peripheral issues - getting involved with depots with long and illustrious histories, or with the few remaining traditional services that operate (Caledonian Sleeper operations for example). For the most part the railway I see daily from an insider perspective is sterile, accountant and spreadsheet run. The self same depots that look great and sound exciting on paper, are little more than upscaled Kwik-Fit workshops. I think the part that I find so personally sad about the whole level crossing issue is that it's another manifestation of the end of innocence. The railway I grew up around and fell in love with, and the one I choose to model dating from my infancy, no longer exists in any recognisable form. This topic is one of the many reasons that I barely look across the railway fence any more. If you can look past the pallisade fencing or the Berlin wall noise barriers strung along the WCML... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium phil-b259 Posted April 18, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 18, 2014 I was in France only last week, where a single track, overhead electric railway line (presumably 25kV) ran UNFENCED, next to an unfenced country main road, with just a strip of grass between them. Haven't they heard of H&S? There's another crossing 200 metres away.......... Yet most countries of the World do not have their railroads fenced off. Best, Pete. We have covered this before. The blame for this state of affairs lies squarely with the landed gentry who refused to allow the first significant railways (Liverpool & Manchester and London - Birmingham) to happen unless they were 100% fenced in (Don't forget when the bills authorising these railways was going through Parliament, being an MP meant you HAD to be a significant landowner - the term house of commons was a very misleading one at the time). As was well documented at the time their concern was more about (1) their precious livestock getting onto the railway and being killed or (2) commoners, poachers or other undesirables using the railway to trespass on their land. It had NOTHING to do with protecting the general public from trains initially, however once the precedent had been set with regard fences the powers that be noted the benefits in terms of keeping people in general off he line so the fencing rules have been maintained ever since. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium phil-b259 Posted April 18, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 18, 2014 I long for the day when we can have a discussion about level crossings without the phrase 'Darwin Award' being deployed. Even better to have a realisation that sane, rational, intelligent people, like us, can and do make mistakes and that sometimes these mistakes can have serious or fatal consequences. Yes intelligent people can make mistakes and I don't think anyone here disputes that (even working on the railway as I do, doesn't make me immune - I have had a couple of close shaves over the years), however if you examine most level crossing incidents & fatalities over the decades relatively few fall into this category. The driver who was killed on a crossing near Taunton last year by driving round a set of AHBs despite NRs media campaigns over the past few years being one example of stupid behaviour Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJS1977 Posted April 18, 2014 Share Posted April 18, 2014 I am sick and fed up of the nanny state in the UK where we have to suffer due to other stupid, selfish narcissitic people who think the world exists for only for them. What next all trains not allowed to open doors at station in case a passenger trips when they attempt to board or leave the train. On the Great Western Mainline in the London area we now have devices to stop people walking down platform ramps, fences down the middle of platforms with locked gates (Taplow Station is one example) so that someone will not through themselves in front of a train. A few weeks ago I was on a train to Leeds when the service was cancelled because someone had jumped off a bridge north of Potters Bar. This is mad bit - the train was sent bcd to Kings Cross we were transferred to the next service which crawled around the Hertford Loop and Peterborough overtaken by the train we had transferred from at Kings Cross. The loonies are in control of this country you would be mad not to agree! XF The barriers at ends of ramps have been installed at least as far out as Cholsey - where ironically it's saved me a job when I'm volunteering as platform staff there as until now first job of the day's been to set up a temporary barrier there and last job's been to dismantle it and pack it away in the guard's compartment (before hot footing it down the platform to catch the 16:37!). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted April 18, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 18, 2014 I long for the day when we can have a discussion about level crossings without the phrase 'Darwin Award' being deployed. Even better to have a realisation that sane, rational, intelligent people, like us, can and do make mistakes and that sometimes these mistakes can have serious or fatal consequences. I don't mind the sane, rational or intelligent ones - because they are, and they very, very rarely get themselves in a situation of danger. It was, and probably still is - although I am now outside the fence on the big railway - the ones who treat the four foot as some sort of public footpath without any concern for their own safety or those they give an example to or those who stand there because it happens to afford the best viewpoint for photo or whatever. I have. literally, had to push people down embankments or out of the four foot simply to save their lives and I have very little sympathy for their stupidity or arrogance which led to me having to do that, nowadays it would of course be illegal for someone in my past position to do that. And picking up on Beast's point I have yet to meet anyone who survived a very close encounter with the front end of a moving train, alas I have come across several who didn't and they were indeed volunteers in the careless (as opposed to deliberate) sense. Once you've chucked someone in a couple of plastic sacks you tend to have pretty strong views on how they got themselves there. The ignorant are one thing (and some exist, but not many in my experience), the downright stupid and arrogant are something else entirely because they make a conscious choice - albeit an utterly idiotic one. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rods_of_Revolution Posted April 19, 2014 Share Posted April 19, 2014 Closing crossings is a good thing, so long as an alternative solution with equal or better facilities is provided in the same location. Any point on the railway where people, animals or vehicles cross the tracks presents a risk. The more crossings that can be replaced with underpasses or over bridges the better. In this instance the crossing has been closed without replacement, which I don't think is right; there should be a footbridge or underpass built to replace the crossing. What causes big issues with replacing foot crossings is the disability legislation. If an existing crossing is not wheelchair friendly, it can still remain open, however if you wish to replace that crossing with a nice new bridge, then that nice new bridge needs to be able to accommodate wheelchair users regardless of whether the crossing it's replacing does. Regards, Jack Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted April 19, 2014 Author Share Posted April 19, 2014 Closing crossings is a good thing, so long as an alternative solution with equal or better facilities is provided in the same location. Any point on the railway where people, animals or vehicles cross the tracks presents a risk. I am happy to exist in a world of variety where there is a little, recognised and mitigated risk. It may be on the one hand a laudable aim to provide a flat playing field accessible to all, but if I want to have the chance to cross a user-worked level crossing at my own risk, then I shall rue the loss of it. Like I rue the loss of the following risks: standing close to a non-EU regulations compatible diesel loco and being deafened by its raucous output window-hanging and getting smuts in my eye leaning out of a corner door to use the slightly greasy outside handle bunking a depot in fear of the depot manager catching and slinging me out joining a Class 1 express stopped at the peg at Five Ways and hiding in the loo because the guard saw me and shouted getting close to the stage at a gig - now barred by intercom-fitted uniformed security thugs watching the Lombard RAC Rally mere feet from the track in the dark breathing the smoke filled air of classic gig venues, long-closed since the smoking ban killed grass-roots live music enjoying a spontaneous public display of affection for fear of CCTV censure rather than being caught by passers by freedom Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin_m Posted April 19, 2014 Share Posted April 19, 2014 Closing crossings is a good thing, so long as an alternative solution with equal or better facilities is provided in the same location. Any point on the railway where people, animals or vehicles cross the tracks presents a risk. The more crossings that can be replaced with underpasses or over bridges the better. In this instance the crossing has been closed without replacement, which I don't think is right; there should be a footbridge or underpass built to replace the crossing. What causes big issues with replacing foot crossings is the disability legislation. If an existing crossing is not wheelchair friendly, it can still remain open, however if you wish to replace that crossing with a nice new bridge, then that nice new bridge needs to be able to accommodate wheelchair users regardless of whether the crossing it's replacing does. As I understand it, the bridge only needs to have ramps if the crossing is either a bridleway or a footpath suitable for wheelchairs. Footpaths that go over stiles etc are not suitable for wheelchairs so any replacement bridge will only have steps. Certainly there are many crossing replacement footbridges that have gone in recently that don't have ramps. The bridge itself can also be controversial, if it allows passers-by a view into someone's garden or bedroom! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Captain Kernow Posted April 19, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 19, 2014 I long for the day when we can have a discussion about level crossings without the phrase 'Darwin Award' being deployed. Even better to have a realisation that sane, rational, intelligent people, like us, can and do make mistakes and that sometimes these mistakes can have serious or fatal consequences. I can't disagree with the overall sentiment expressed here, Neil, but I do know a bit about this one, and it's not as straightforward as some would have the rest of us believe. The decision made to close it is indeed the right one, and the local community is not nearly so inconvenienced as others may have us believe. In this particular instance, I would not take issue with Mr Stationmaster's arguments... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Y Posted April 19, 2014 Share Posted April 19, 2014 Locked pending consideration. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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