Help with locos in Utah?

[GWR88]

Hi all,

Some of you may be aware that i'm building a small switching in layout based in Utah. It was planned to be set in 1987 but one of my locos has to be sent back so im time warping the layout to the 1970s. So far ive got a SP gp35. Could any of you help me by telling me if any of these locos would suit Utah for the 1970s? Cheers guys

http://www.nscaleamericantrains.co.uk/en/dc-and-dcc-ready/28605-diesel-emd-sd35-utah-railway-2959.html

http://www.nscaleamericantrains.co.uk/en/dc-and-dcc-ready/31207-mp15dc-union-pacific-1308.html

http://www.nscaleamericantrains.co.uk/en/dc-and-dcc-ready/17340-diesel-emd-gp15-1-union-pacific-1683.html

I really like the look of this loco-http://www.nscaleamericantrains.co.uk/en/dc-and-dcc-ready/32298-alco-dl109-santa-fe-50.html Would it have lasted to the 70s in freight duties? Theres also a green southern RR one.

Thanks once again guys and sorry the list is so long!

Lloyd

 

 

[John Tomlinson]

As a pointer, rather than definitive answer, I would say the two UP yellow liveried locos probably came in after 1983 when the merger/ takeover of Missouri Pacific and Western Pacific took place. I'd be doubtful about the Utah SD35 in the 70's as well as that looks like the colour scheme from the late 80's & 90's. As for the lovely Santa Fe DL109, almost certainly not, as these locos were some of the first diesels in the USA, dating I think from the mid 1940's.

 

Unfortunately I don't have access to my US books at the moment, so please take these comments as pointers only.

 

John.

[Adrian Wintle]

The DL109 would have been long gone, either scrapped or traded in on a newer loco. Even if it had survived, it was not geared for freight work.

 

Try this as a resource: http://www.utahrails.net/

 

From that:

Utah 2959 was in service 1998-2000

UP 1334 came from MP in 1983

UP 1683 came from MP in 1983. Built 1982.

 

Adrian

[GWR88]

Cheers adrian and john,

Would this look out of place?http://www.nscaleamericantrains.co.uk/en/dc-and-dcc-ready/26453-diesel-emd-f45-utah-railway-6613.html 

Also, would it be believable that a private company bought a dl109 to usre as a pull unit/ My layout is a small boxcar yard that only has 3 or 4 cars delivered at a time.

Cheers

[Prof Klyzlr]

Dear Lloyd,

 

Unsure about Utah, but SP GP35s apparently lasted well into the 1990s in SP grey. They were introduced late 1963/early 64, so the 70s is fair-game...

 

http://espee.railfan.net/spgp35.html

 

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/locolist.aspx?id=SP&mid=50

 

http://www.locophotos.com/Search.php?SearchRoadID=166&SearchLocoID=&SearchLowerNumber=&SearchUpperNumber=&SearchModel=EMD+GP35&SearchBuilderDate=&SearchLowerBuilderDate=&SearchUpperBuilderDate=&SearchOrderNumber=&SearchSerialNumber=&SearchFrameNumber=&SearchLineage=&SearchNotes=&SearchRemarks=&SearchUserID=&SearchCity=&SearchState=&SearchPhotoDate=&SearchLowerDate=&SearchUpperDate=&Order=&Search=Search

 

As for the other locos

- Utah Railway SD35

http://www.utahrails.net/utah-ry/utah-ry-diesel.php

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/locolist.aspx?id=UTAH

 

Well possible in the 1970s, although the Utah Railway was IIRC a standalone copper-hauler,
they didn;t tend to let their locos "roam free" or perform what you'd think of as "local switching"

 

- UP MP15DC
Most UP MP15DCs are actually ex SP locos
http://espee.railfan.net/spmp15dc.html

 

They were built new in 1974, so for a shortline or "2nd hand operator", an MP15 is unlikely in the 70s...

 

Prime for modern/contemporary switching though!

 

- UP GP15-1

Again, built 1976 onwards makes it a bit too "modern" for a "1970s 2nd-hand/shortline operator" layout.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EMD_GP15-1

http://www.railpictures.net/showphotos.php?locomotive=EMD%20GP15-1

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/locolist.aspx?id=UPY&mid=15

 

- ATSF Alco DL109

Straight up passenger loco. Not plausible for "local switching", (although they say there is a prototype for everything, if you look hard enough).
Built well before the 70's, (built 1939-45) they would have been pretty worn-out by that time...

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ALCO_DL-109

http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?11,3060376

http://www.qstation.org/atsf/wrbnnt.html

 

 

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

[GWR88]

Thanks prof,

I cant help but think your trying to make me build a modern switching yard when you spoke about the MP15DC. Hmmmmmmm Maybe i do need a new layout   

Also the loco im sending back is an atlas Up SD60 so if i get a now one i can move the time frame back to 1987.

[John Tomlinson]

Cheers adrian and john,

Would this look out of place?http://www.nscaleamericantrains.co.uk/en/dc-and-dcc-ready/26453-diesel-emd-f45-utah-railway-6613.html

Also, would it be believable that a private company bought a dl109 to usre as a pull unit/ My layout is a small boxcar yard that only has 3 or 4 cars delivered at a time.

Cheers

The F45 is as you can probably guess from the livery, ex Burlington Northern (BN - half of what is now BNSF). They were phased out by BN in the early 80's - somewhere I have photos of some in store in Vancouver WA in 1985. The Utah Railroad examples arrived there sometime in the mid/late 80's, and I'm sure at least one ended up in the gray & red livery we looked at on SD35 2959.

 

As for the DL109 anything is possible, but I'm not aware of a precedent in reality (which doesn't mean there isn't one). You could of course just pretend that a preservation group keep the loco on your shortline and it gets used from time to time.

 

John.

 

P.S. Having read the blurb on the sale sheet, I think that the Utah had more than three of the F45's, the three referred to being from the original GN batch ( GN being a constituent of BN in the 1970 amalgamation that created it, along with NP and CB&Q) with others from the batches delivered new to BN. Sorry to be somewhat imprecise, but I'm having to rely on memory rather than look it up!

[GWR88]

Thanks john,

Luckily im new to american railroads so i cant correct you

[Adrian Wintle]

Utah Railways roster: http://www.utahrails.net/utah-ry/utah-ry-diesel-index.php

 

The F45 dates from 1985.

 

No private company would have bought a DL109 - nobody would have wanted to take on the maintenance headaches of an ancient Alco.

 

Adrian

[GWR88]

Thanks adrian i might have to find another loco then. Any ideas? Would an DRGW rs3 be alright as a short line hauler for a couple of boxcars

EDit- Im now deciding between these

http://www.nscaleamericantrains.co.uk/en/dc-and-dcc-ready/32438-emd-nw2-union-pacific-1020.html

http://www.nscaleamericantrains.co.uk/en/dc-and-dcc-ready/30625-emd-sd45-southern-pacific-8613.html

http://www.nscaleamericantrains.co.uk/en/dc-and-dcc-ready/14279-diesel-ge-u23b-western-pacific-2263.html

And i know its not prototypical but im definatley gonna have to buy it at some point-http://www.nscaleamericantrains.co.uk/en/dc-and-dcc-ready/32301-alco-dl109-southern-6400.html

[dave1905]

In the 1970's the roads in Utah would have been the SP, UP, DRGW, WP, UTAH and KCC.  UTAH was a shortline that only operated its engines on its lines.  Kennecott Copper only operated its engines on the mine property into Bingham Canyon.  The WP only ran into Salt Lake, the DRGW ran from Denver to Provo then north through Salt Lake to Odgen.  The UP ran into Utah from Cheyenne and then split into a line towards Idaho and a line towards Ogden and Salt Lake City.  There were two lines south out of Salt Lake, one through Provo and they joined around Lyndyll.

 

After the UP-WP and SP-DRGW mergers the entire traffic patterns in Utah changed. 

 

Into the 1980's the UP's switchers would have been SW10's. 

 

If you want a spot with a lot of roads, I would suggest either Provo or Salt Lake City.  Provo has the Utah, DRGW and UP.  SLC has the WP, UP and DRGW.  Provo has coal trains and a steel mill.  SLC has intermodal, oil refineries and more general industry.

[GWR88]

Cheers dave, the yard is very small and only deals with a few cars at a time so places like salt lake and ogden are out of the question as it just doesnt suit

[trisonic]

The DRGW seems sadly overlooked nowadays in modelling terms. My late brother had a very nice DRGW large loft layout in 2mm. Sadly dispersed to the winds by his widow....

 

What year did the UP-WP merge happen? You're a mine of information, Dave, thanks!

 

Best, Pete.

[GWR88]

Trisonic, the dgrw was the first us RR i heard about!

[Adrian Wintle]

Thanks adrian i might have to find another loco then. Any ideas? Would an DRGW rs3 be alright as a short line hauler for a couple of boxcars

EDit- Im now deciding between these

http://www.nscaleamericantrains.co.uk/en/dc-and-dcc-ready/32438-emd-nw2-union-pacific-1020.html

http://www.nscaleamericantrains.co.uk/en/dc-and-dcc-ready/30625-emd-sd45-southern-pacific-8613.html

http://www.nscaleamericantrains.co.uk/en/dc-and-dcc-ready/14279-diesel-ge-u23b-western-pacific-2263.html

And i know its not prototypical but im definatley gonna have to buy it at some point-http://www.nscaleamericantrains.co.uk/en/dc-and-dcc-ready/32301-alco-dl109-southern-6400.html

 

SOU 6400 was built in 1941, retired and scrapped in 1954.

 

UP 1020 was built in 1941 and wrecked in 1973, but others lasted until 1985

 

WP 2263 was built in 1972 and effectively went out of service at the end of 1982 although they weren't actually retired until 1987.

[dave1905]

The UP switcher would be OK as would the WP U boat.  The SP engine has the post DRGW merger paint.

 

Pre-UP-WP merger the WP and DRGW were interchange partners and the SP and UP were interchange partners.  The WP and DRGW interchanged entire trains of cars at Salt Lake City and the SP and UP exchanged entire trains at Ogden.

 

For either the SP, UP or DRGW you can't go wrong with an SD40.  For the DRGW and SP you can do the tunnel motors.  All 3 of them also had SD45's.  With the UP you also get the bonus of being able to run DD35b's, DD35a's, DD40X, U50B, U50C, and assorted turbines.

[Adrian Wintle]

What year did the UP-WP merge happen?

 

Best, Pete.

 

Effective Jan 1983.

 

Adrian

[GWR88]

cheers guys for all your help! im now stuck between the nw2 and the ge u23b so can anyone vote their personal choice as i want both of them but cant afford them both! I am verging towards the u23b though.

[dave1905]

Cheers dave, the yard is very small and only deals with a few cars at a time so places like salt lake and ogden are out of the question as it just doesnt suit

 

Au contraire.  There are lots of smaller switching areas in and around the larger cities.  The problem with Utah is that once you leave the big cities you are out in the desert.  Very little between the bigger locations.  Go 40 miles outside any major cities and your layout is just a piece of flextrack running down the middle of the board with sand covering the rest of it and a backdrop with mountains on it.  8-)

 

If you are doing a smaller yard then you want an SW (NW as a stand in) or a GP unit.  1970 it could be a GP7, GP9, GP30 or GP35 (for pretty much any road).  For 1980 it would be more an SW or GP38 (for any road).  The Utah had some RS Alcos that lasted into the 1970's but they did comparatively little industrial work (mostly coal trains).  The UP and DRGW did switching at any place between Ogden and Provo.  the SP did industrial switching at Odgen.  The WP did little if any industrial switching in Salt Lake.

[GWR88]

tjhanks dave,

NW2 it is! The layout was based in ST. George at the bottom of Utah  on the border with Arizona

[dave1905]

You must be freelancing the whole thing since I can't find a railroad that operates or even used to operate in St. George.  The closest the UP comes to St. George is probably Cedar City  A distant 2nd would be the DRGW.

[GWR88]

yes it is freelance but i would like realistic locos and stock to make it believable. Im trying to make it believeable at least but that $£&*@ DL109 is still creeping into my thoughts! 

[dave1905]

You must have family there because that is about the most random place to put a railroad I can imagine.  8-)

 

I model a line in SE Pennsylvania and the there was a scrap yard on that line that was famous for scrapping all sorts of railroad equipment, there is one picture of them scrapping RDG T-1 4-8-4's and in the background you could see that next up for the torch was a dead line of ex-NH DL109's.  If you want DL109's then you are probably talking about the Chicago area or Boston.  They would have been almost exclusively passenger trains, mostly commuter trains (they weren't reliable enough for long distance trains).

[GWR88]

Thanks dave

Nope no family there at all im british born and bred i just like the name and look of the place!

Edit: i cant see the photo dave, is that just because im on mobile?

[Adrian Wintle]

They would have been almost exclusively passenger trains, mostly commuter trains (they weren't reliable enough for long distance trains).

 

Which didn't stop the Southern from using them for just that...

 

It is telling that the Southern* bought 3 DL109s and 3 DL110s (DL109 B-units), 7 E6as, and 4 E6Bs in 1941. When they got around to buying new passenger motive power after the war it was 28 E7As, 19 E8As, and 20 FP7As, but only six more Alcos (PA-3s).

 

*Southern, CofG, CNO&TP, NO&NE together.

 

Adrian