Lance's latest Blog entry (Mar18)... food for thought?

[trisonic]

Anyway... *polite cough* .... back to the Topic at hand.....

What Jordan - the OP - says.

 

We've enough of the cars too, thank you.

 

I'm going to a gig, any more trouble and I'll descend on anyone during the Hour of the Wolf, OK?

 

Best, Pete.

[Talltim]

I think there are more variables to this than Lance has mentioned. As well as the number of axles and the HP of the units, it sounds like NS are also using pretty modern locos (mention of the heritage paint job locos ) which surprises me more, I was kinda expecting SD40/45s of some level of rebuiltness

Also it sounds like the actual reason for the three locos is that the train is heavy, with a lot of cars transferring from one yard to another and the train doing a small amount of switching on the way. I'm not sure that this is that easy to represent on a small layout, except you could maybe presume that the locos and cars for the industry have uncoupled from the rest of the train before they enter the layout 'scene'

[dave1905]

Having assigned locomotives to trains in a couple former lives, there is a whole lot more to this than just the immediate move.  It depends on where the power came from and where its going after this trip.  If they need to move power from terminal A to terminal C they may put big units on the train just to get them to C.  At C they break the consist up and send the big units someplace else.  But if you take a picture of the train at B you see big units on the local.  It may be its cheaper to use the road power of a terminating train that lays over for 10 hours to do 6 hours of industry work than it would be to keep a 4 axle on hand and do industry work with it.  It may be they can replace two 4 axle units with one 6 axle unit.  It may be they have lots of surplus railroad owned 6 axle units and they don't want to lease additional 4 axle units.  After all an SD40 and GP38 have the same engine in them, just one is turbo charged.

[Prof Klyzlr]

Hey. At least my everyday ride is a USA vehicle

 

Andy

 

Dear Andy,

 

1 - I wanna see the P87 show/exhibition/demo layout that uses this as it's transport vehicle... ;-)

(Hey, if Laurie Green could do it in On3....

http://www.lauriegreensweb.com/Old%20Ophir/Old%20Ophir.html )

 

2 - How many non-modellers do you get asking if "proto87" is some form of secret corvette performance tuning/tweaking thing?

 

Happy Modelling,

Aiming to design the next few show layouts, with the cargo area of a Subie MY2000 Outback wagon as the limiting factor,

Prof Klyzlr

[EmporiaSub]

I think there are more variables to this than Lance has mentioned. As well as the number of axles and the HP of the units, it sounds like NS are also using pretty modern locos (mention of the heritage paint job locos ) which surprises me more, I was kinda expecting SD40/45s of some level of rebuiltness

Also it sounds like the actual reason for the three locos is that the train is heavy, with a lot of cars transferring from one yard to another and the train doing a small amount of switching on the way. I'm not sure that this is that easy to represent on a small layout, except you could maybe presume that the locos and cars for the industry have uncoupled from the rest of the train before they enter the layout 'scene'

Yes, my take on how I read his Blog (which I have saved as a 'favourite'), is that the main train is left either on the main or in a nearby yard, whilst the loco and cars switch an industrial spur, but without doing a Google Map search of the area, the industrial spur could be some length (similar in a way to his plans he describes).

(Have to do the Google Map search shortly, out of curiosity.....!).

 

Brian

[F-UnitMad]

Yes, my take on how I read his Blog (which I have saved as a 'favourite'), is that the main train is left either on the main or in a nearby yard, whilst the loco and cars switch an industrial spur, but without doing a Google Map search of the area, the industrial spur could be some length (similar in a way to his plans he describes).

(Have to do the Google Map search shortly, out of curiosity.....!).

 

Brian

That's how I saw it too, & dave1905 expands on the "why" a 'big loco lash-up' might be seen at some point in it's journey with just a few cars.

Was it ever thus - I have a picture in an old issue of Trains (a US mag) of a CGW train in the 1970's :- 4 locos, 4 cars & a caboose. But as the caption explains, the photo was taken at the end of a long branch; by the time the train got back to Chicago, picking up cars along the branch, it would top 100+ cars. Nevertheless, at a particular part of it's journey, it looked ridiculously over-powered.

 

....which leads us back to the point of the blog entry...

[w124bob]

I've just reread the blog entry (and the previous one regarding scenery ratio) , it occurred to me about midway through that perhaps the real purpose of the blog is keep the book sales/shelf layout business in the public domain. Lance is someone who's writings are always interesting to read, even if you don't want to model his chosen location or railroad what he has to say always strikes a chord with me. Go back a few years and one blog entry was about wiring a sound decoder under the layout via an amp to speakers, well isn't that basically the new system from Soundtraxx http://www.soundtraxx.com/surround/ on a one loco plank layout the Lance method might be a much cheaper way. Here is the link  scroll down to April http://www.lancemindheim.com/2012_blogs.htm First blog entry regarding this is Sept 2011.

[Pugsley]

2 litre GT with 97,000 miles on the clock when I sold her, and she still ran as smoothly as a sewing machine. I still miss her.

That's a very 'Sweeney-esque' pose

[Prof Klyzlr]

Dear Bob,

 

 

Go back a few years and one blog entry was about wiring a sound decoder under the layout via an amp to speakers, well isn't that basically the new system from Soundtraxx http://www.soundtraxx.com/surround/ 

 

 

On the surface, the resulting system may bear a tenuous passing resemblence,
(strongly suggest reading on thru the entire strong of blog posts, where Lance dumps the speakers,
and goes with a decent-spec set of Sennheiser RS170 wireless headphones)

 

however, as one who was directly "plugged in" and accross both the starting-conditions/stated "problem parameters" which prompted Lance to start considering such an approach,

 

and was directly involved with the step-by-step education/teaching/evolution of the final system,

 

I can confirm that the underlying motives, applications, and target results were very very different to those promoted-as-addressed by the "SurroundTraxx" system
(which IIRC, has not actually sold all that well).

 

 

on a one loco plank layout the Lance method might be a much cheaper way.

 

As far as "up to the Audio Output" stage of the circuit goes, yes. The "decoder > Line level" adaptor circuit is dead simple (literally 3 or 4 components, if you include a fancy 3.5mm minijack socket to plug the headphones/speakers into), and is directly compatible with any decoder which presents a "8-ohm speaker output".
(IE not restricted to TSUs).

 

For testing of true Decoder Audio Output signal capabilities, or simply to try Lance's style of audio, the Soundtraxx "Tech Note 11" adaptor is a great simple project for any modeller who can successfully solder feeder wires to "have a go" with... (happy to provide info and examples if required, probably advisable to start a seperate thread...).

 

As far as the "listening bit" of the circuit goes, one of the key issues raised (and conclusively proven) is that we as modellers tend to "cheap out" when it comes to sound,
(both in $$$ terms, and in terms of "consciously spending the time to adapt/tweak the readily-available settings to optimise the result to suit our tastes"),

thus creating a self-forfilling prophecy that "sound never sounds-good, let alone right".
(In the "sonic modelling" part of model RRs,
99% of modellers are "RTR PnP" without even considering there may be any "easy tweakability" which could lift their experience from "nice" to "knocked my sox off"),

 

 

In Lance's case,
(read the entire string of blog posts),
he went from:

- decoder > cheapo PC multimedia speakers
(with resulting Decoder Out > Line-level Speaker In mismatch, and predictable circuit death)

- decoder > adaptor circuit > cheapo multimedia speakers
(no circuit death due to signal level mismatches,
sounded "better" by dint of fact that the speakers were capable slightly wider-range frequency response, and were significantly louder,
in the same way that when you hear your fave song on the radio, you turn it up. The added distortion and ear-damage is unconsciously ignored because you like the song...
Ergo we get sucked into "Louder is better"...)

 

and finally
- decoder > adaptor circuit > Sennheiser RS170 transmitter > wireless link > Sennheiser RS170 Headset
(plus significant optimisation of the signal path and tweaking of decoder/RS170 settings)

 

(This gave all the "proper signal level conversion" benefits of the Mk2 version above,
with better "speaker >air> ear" delivery of the sounds,
walkaround capability to match the wireless DCC throttle system, 
and immersive "1st person in-loco-cab" aural perspective,
which was one of the key aims of the exercise from the outset, and "normal speakers" didn't accomplish)

 

Now, a pair of Sennheiser RS170 "home theatre" grade wireless headphones are not that cheap as headphones go,
and are certainly more $$$ than a budget set of Logitech PC Multimedia 2.1 "gamer" speakers.
 

However, for a 1st-person-"in-cab"-perspective switching operation,
the resulting solution is one of the better, consciously-optimised-for-task systems I've seen.
(and dang if it doesn't sound great too...)

 

Of course, having lifted the "weak link" of poorly/not-optimised onboard speaker installation,
and replacing it with an "above reproach" full-frequency-response "speakers" > air > ears signal path,
the actual degree of digital audio S.U.C. (Sounds Under Constraints) reproduced by what is considered "state of the art" sound decoders
(as compared to what is known-to-be and non-audiophile-accepted-as "full frequency spec" digital audio, a la CD 44.1kHz 16bit uncompressed PCM WAV),

 

becomes oh-so-evident...
(even up against compressed MP3,
the removal of the rose-colored-glasses,
or is that eliminating the sonic smoke screen?,
is a telling A/B comparison...)

 

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr 
 

[Andy Reichert]

Dear Andy,

 

1 - I wanna see the P87 show/exhibition/demo layout that uses this as it's transport vehicle... ;-)

(Hey, if Laurie Green could do it in On3....

http://www.lauriegreensweb.com/Old%20Ophir/Old%20Ophir.html )

 

2 - How many non-modellers do you get asking if "proto87" is some form of secret corvette performance tuning/tweaking thing?

 

Happy Modelling,

Aiming to design the next few show layouts, with the cargo area of a Subie MY2000 Outback wagon as the limiting factor,

Prof Klyzlr

 

 

Dear Prof,

 

It's the other way around. The layout holds the cars. My top secret "Fantastic Voyage" technology has only got the vette down to Proto:48 so far, but we hope for further minaturisation in due course.

 

Having a 170 mph "switcher' is handy for moving the odd piece of lost rolling stock around so fast that the visitors don't see it moving . .

 

 

My original "first car" is showing a lot of wear and tear over the years it has been miniaturized, but may get "restored", one day as it has now become a museum piece in real life. 

 

I do get a lot of "would be models" into the passenger seat, once they hear I make successful models professionally, but those stories would be too boring for an existing forum like this. . . .

 

Andy

[dullsteamer]

he is very good at making models, of that ther is no doubt, but part from that he is only telling people how railways work, which is obvious to anyone that actually looks at things

 

Sorry, it's not obvious. And I say that as someone who has been a railwayman for 39 years. Sure, I'm very familiar with the way my railway works, but as US railroads have entirely different signalling and safeworking, rules and procedures, the way they work is not always immediately obvious to me - so what must it be like for blokes who don't have a professional interest or background? Particularly if those blokes live in the UK, and all they know of railway operations are what they've seen locally? 

 

Like a number of other posters, I can't understand why LM attracts so much antipathy. I'm never ever going to model a modern-era minimalist US switching layout, but I still read his articles and blog posts with interest. He has an article in the 2014 issue of Model Railroad Planning that outlines his thoughts on planning versus design, and operations. Most of what he advocates makes bloody good sense to me.

 

All the best,

 

Mark.

[switcher 1]

I don't know about L.M.'s blog, but I do have a couple of his books & he puts over the difference in operation of American practice quite well I thought, especially for a beginner to this side of the hobby.

[PaulRhB]

Unless you can go and actually watch the railroad in question then it's very difficult to 'see' how it works. Much still isn't apparent unless you know why, as the discussion about 6 axle power on local jobs running at the moment. What use is a forum like this for answering questions if it's all obvious?

Modelling the USA today is at least possible to go and see at least unlike 1910 uk but a visit would pay for a significant layout with stock. Hence Lance allows us to see some of the aspects of US railroading that due to space are very popular here and do it within a tight budget

Joining US forums will answer many other questions just like some of the folks do here and on their RMweb blogs.

[ChrisH-UK]

This thread has gone off on so many tangents I'm not sure if I'm on or off-topic or whether I am bringing anything new. 

 

I have seen a pair of high HP six-axle locos on transfers and doing a limited amount of actual switching in parts of South Jersey, yeah it's bread and butter for a pair of GPs but sometimes a seasonal grain train or a stone train will take a pair of road engines and their crew rocking and rolling to a place where they need to do the local stuff. It's too easy to think that big stuff is only for big trains and small stuff is only for small trains (and I know from the bitchin of an engineer friend that there are times when they stick a couple of GPs on a heavy freight that's barely able to make 30mph when usually it's cruising along at 50+)

 

(On the subject of Lance, he is one of 3 writers who I always take an interest in when stuff appears in MR, the others are Pelle and Matt Snell, I'll also admit to having visited the area Lance modelled when I went to Miami and if I hadn't read about it I would have assumed all the track was disused)

 

Thanks

Chris H

[long island jack]

This whole anti-Lance thing is becoming genuinely weird and off-putting. Makes me wonder why I bother posting my own stuff here.

 

Got to agree here,this was about 6 axle power switching, the usual antagonizer has put his tenpence worth in and everyone has been caught, hook line and sinker (myself included),then when it gets back on topic,of we go with cars.

 

I think i'm going to have to analyse any future post more deeply to try and eliminate any chance of it going of topic or end up with a character assassination or not bother at all!!!

 

I can really see why people are starting to drift away,this is a shame as we can all learn from each other, rather than sticking knifes into each other.

 

Ray

[Robatron86]

I didn't mean to go off topic with the cars, I was using it as an example.

[shortliner]

I wouldn't worry - topics, like trains, sometimes get switched onto sidetracks, but they usually turnout to get back onto the main at some point  further down the line.

I work on the basis of ignoring posts that seem intentionally designed to promote dissention and upset - remember the old adage - "don't feed the trolls" - ignore them and they will depart and bother another forum 

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

Back on topic, and some pictures.  I am good to you, aren't I?

 

Casa Grande switcher set, June 2007.  GP38-2, SD40M, SD60, SD40M, SD70M.

 

 

The set later split, and acquired an SW1500 and an extra GP40 so made two CG switcher sets,  A measure of how bad the recession hit this area, the CG switcher these days is a single pair of GP40s and sometimes just a single geep.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[roundhouse]

Nice photos.

 

What year did you take these and do you have a close up of the UP SD70M or is it a SD&%M?

 

Ian

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

June 2007, and is it the SD60 you want a close up of?  #2228?

 

Nice features in that set - an unpatched SP unit, and UP red sills before the yellow sills became law.

[roundhouse]

Sorry

 

Should have said which photo.

 

In the bottom photo the third loco which is in UP livery (with large flag?)

 

Some great patch jobs there aswell.

 

Ian

[Talltim]

Is that a switcher set or a local set? I know there's sometimes an overlap between the roles.

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

Ah, that's a bog standard SD70M #5090.  I didn't bother taking any other photos of it, as they're common place power on the Sunset Route.

 

Here's a trio of them elephant style passing under the grand old SP cantilever at Picacho.  This scene is all swept away now...

 

 

and here's a pair of them at Estrella, or Mobile I forget.

 

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

Is that a switcher set or a local set? I know there's sometimes an overlap between the roles.

 

Technically, its a Hauler (local) from Tucson that carries out switching at the destination.  The Hauler usually also conveys the out stationed switchers from the fuelling/servicing pads at Tucson.and leaves them behind to carry out local switching for the rest of the week, while the main hauler power heads back to Tucson.  In 07 Haulers were running everyday, and the first switch at CG in the morning was carried out by the hauler power.  The local switch job services the industries for the rest of the day between haulers.

 

Haulers can be big - I've seen some in excess of 100 cars, but not since the recession began - this knocked almost all the construction traffic out.

 

Here's another Hauler, a Phoenix bound one this time.

 

[Talltim]

That would be interesting to model, big train pulls up on your layout, switches out a loco and some cars and carries on. Loco switches then big train comes back and takes the loco and the swapped out cars away again.