RMweb Premium PhilJ W Posted May 18, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 18, 2014 Does anyone know how many locos we're painted in the wartime grey? I also remember seeing a photo of a bo bo hauling a rake of well wagons loaded with tanks or armoured vehicles, does anyone have that photo in a book or mag? Tom I also remember the photo you talked about but I can't remember where I saw it. IIRC London Transport were involved in the preparations for D Day and it was part of that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Smith Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 (edited) I realize that the photos earlier in this thread are probably of pre-production models - I don't know why some parts are white though (except the fuse boxes which should be weathered white). However for me the appearance is spoiled by several features:- 1. the glazing corners detract somewhat - this is presumably an attempt to make it flush but it looks awful. 2. the buffer heads are oversized and the incorrect shape - photo post #55 3. the additional straight drip-rail or gutter over the side door and window is missing, this is quite a prominent feature, likewise the side mirror - photo post #55 (edit - have since realized this drip-rail is a modern feature not fitted to the original prototypes) 4. the handrail knobs are vastly overscale. 5. Bogies should be black and the shoe beams grey. Apologies if this seems picky but with such a plain shaped loco the details are all the more important to me. Edited June 20, 2014 by Jeff Smith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Metr0Land Posted June 20, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 20, 2014 I realize that the photos earlier in this thread are probably of pre-production models - I don't know why some parts are white though (except the fuse boxes which should be weathered white). However for me the appearance is spoiled by several features:- 5. Bogies should be black and the shoe beams grey. Apologies if this seems picky but with such a plain shaped loco the details are all the more important to me. This is an engineering protoype. Heljan are well known for producing such samples in odd colours to see if the general shape is ok, eg #100 on this thread: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/3193-Heljan-baby-deltic/page-4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Smith Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 Seems strange to do this as it evidently provokes a comment like mine.....a little work with a paintbrush is all it would have taken.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xerces Fobe2 Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 To be fair the recent Heljan models have been good representations of the prototypes so let's reserve judgement on this loco until it is released. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjgardiner Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 Seems strange to do this as it evidently provokes a comment like mine.....a little work with a paintbrush is all it would have taken.... Not really, then you lose the detail you are trying to spot. Engineering samples are often all kinds of crazy colours depending on what the factory has been running that day, the point is to show the shape and form and to pick out missing details, incorrectly injected areas or moulding errors and to give people a sense of what it looks like to get feedback. It's not a painted sample or a sales sample, but a test of the tooling to confirm that everything is working and that the model goes together as it should. Some of your comments about the details being wrong or oversized might actually be helpful to Heljan if you communicated them to them, rather than wait on the finished product and saying they got it wrong. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Smith Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 Not really, then you lose the detail you are trying to spot. Engineering samples are often all kinds of crazy colours depending on what the factory has been running that day, the point is to show the shape and form and to pick out missing details, incorrectly injected areas or moulding errors and to give people a sense of what it looks like to get feedback. It's not a painted sample or a sales sample, but a test of the tooling to confirm that everything is working and that the model goes together as it should. Some of your comments about the details being wrong or oversized might actually be helpful to Heljan if you communicated them to them, rather than wait on the finished product and saying they got it wrong. You are probably right regarding test pieces in whatever colour is available that day - I know very little about injection moulding. However from a marketing standpoint the potential buyers do not need to see these - they need to see something representative of what they might actually want to buy..... I'm also sure that price and robustness rules when it comes to decisions about how true to scale to make certain add-ons such as hand-rails and knobs, vacuum pipes, and some moulded-on features. After all we need something to super detail and improve. The recent Rapido 00 APT-E launch quotes a specification which includes provision for drop-in EM or P4 wheels - I would hope that all 00 manufacturers will be doing this in future. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium New Haven Neil Posted June 24, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 24, 2014 You are entitled to your opinion of course Jeff, but I think looking about RMWeb you will see most people DO want to see these early mould shots. It also shows the models aren't 'vapourware' but are in process of production. The criticism Hornby have taken of late confirms this. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
298 Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 You are entitled to your opinion of course Jeff, but I think looking about RMWeb you will see most people DO want to see these early mould shots. It also shows the models aren't 'vapourware' but are in process of production. The criticism Hornby have taken of late confirms this. A manufacturer would be foolish to ignore such free and knowledgable appraisals, I remember the criticism the Heljan 86 received at the CAD stage and subsequently when the necessary alterations weren't made. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Smith Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 Yes, I agree about the need to see that something is in the works. Nevertheless I'm sure there are marketing reasons for 'leaking' future products backed up with evidence as against coming to market with a finished available surprise model. For example the Heljan announcement has caused Phil at Radley models to stop producing his Bo-Bo kit - this however may have been a business decision on his part so that he wasn't left with un-sold kits and parts....... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xerces Fobe2 Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 Great we are getting a Metropolitan Electric Bo Bo something we could of only dreamed about a few years ago. I hope Heljan do a limited edition of Sherlock Holmes for all forensic contributors on this thread, XF 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Bernard Lamb Posted June 26, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 26, 2014 The recent Rapido 00 APT-E launch quotes a specification which includes provision for drop-in EM or P4 wheels - I would hope that all 00 manufacturers will be doing this in future. Why? It is such a small part of the market. Even then it is a fragmented market. Dapol did try at one time and actually went as far as including a set of EM wheels with the J94. That experiment soon came to an end. The "big two" have more than enough out of control problems at present, without the need to add another that can be avoided. Bernard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Smith Posted June 26, 2014 Share Posted June 26, 2014 Because it would be cost neutral. The spaces between axle boxes or brake shoes would merely be scale width rather than an 'invented' narrower dimension. I would have thought any feature that potentially increases sales without significant extra cost would be worthy of consideration. I would not expect the manufacturer to supply replacement wheels as well - this would be a poor marketing strategy... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fenman Posted June 26, 2014 Share Posted June 26, 2014 (edited) Because it would be cost neutral. The spaces between axle boxes or brake shoes would merely be scale width rather than an 'invented' narrower dimension. I would have thought any feature that potentially increases sales without significant extra cost would be worthy of consideration. ... But then the change might also lose sales: despite really wanting several, I never bought a single Stove R because the brakes were floating what looked like miles away from the wheels, presumably to accommodate the wider gauges. It was a compromise too far for me to live with. If there's anything visually similar happening on the APT-E, that will be the last sale they ever get from me. (Though I'm all geared-up to buy a couple of Mets...) Paul Edited June 26, 2014 by Fenman Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Smith Posted June 26, 2014 Share Posted June 26, 2014 Yes, but moving the brakes in to line up with 00 wheels accentuates the narrow gauge look.....anyway, that's another bag of worms! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dibber25 Posted June 26, 2014 Share Posted June 26, 2014 But then the change might also lose sales: despite really wanting several, I never bought a single Stove R because the brakes were floating what looked like miles away from the wheels, presumably to accommodate the wider gauges. It was a compromise too far for me to live with. If there's anything visually similar happening on the APT-E, that will be the last sale they ever get from me. (Though I'm all geared-up to buy a couple of Mets...) Paul Don't think the APT-E has obviously visible brake shoes. The main brakes were H-K (so the model should have very large hollow axles) while the friction brakes were probably discs (can't say I noticed when I was there on Tuesday). Anyway, it is these sort of 'you can't please all the people all the time' compromises which might well make Jason wish he'd stuck with 'HO' !! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Boar Fell Posted June 26, 2014 Share Posted June 26, 2014 Don't think the APT-E has obviously visible brake shoes. The main brakes were H-K (so the model should have very large hollow axles) while the friction brakes were probably discs (can't say I noticed when I was there on Tuesday). Anyway, it is these sort of 'you can't please all the people all the time' compromises which might well make Jason wish he'd stuck with 'HO' !! Apologies for continuing off topic, but just to clarify it wasn't disc braked, it had conventional brake shoes. Just visible in my photo from Tuesday. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Smith Posted June 26, 2014 Share Posted June 26, 2014 Yes, but moving the brakes in to line up with 00 wheels accentuates the narrow gauge look.....anyway, that's another bag of worms! Just did some sums and was surprised with the following approximate numbers for wheel-set overall widths :- OO = 20mm P4 = 21mm EM = 22mm - assuming use of OO wheels re-gauged This means that EM would likely be the more challenging conversion. I'm happy to be corrected if I've got these wrong. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenbat Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 I'd suggest looking at Hattons for these, £111 inc postage! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baby Deltic Posted September 21, 2014 Share Posted September 21, 2014 Heljan Met Bo-Bo test sample being given a run on Sumatra Road at the Mid Essex Show yesterday: Thankyou to Grahame Wareham (Brush Veteran) for bringing along the loco. This loco is only a pre-production test sample and might not be the final revision. 14 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SRman Posted September 21, 2014 Share Posted September 21, 2014 I'm willing to bet that the running qualities of that sample were excellent, even if it still needed tweaking of details. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baby Deltic Posted September 28, 2014 Share Posted September 28, 2014 Video of Mid Essex Show. Met Bo-Bo running at 10.51: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BrXppxfLdSg Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Hamblin Posted September 28, 2014 Share Posted September 28, 2014 Lovely little details - like those metal safety brackets around the shoe beam. I lent a hand cleaning the loco at Northfields depot so I'm quite looking forward to this model. Regards, Dan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PaulRhB Posted September 28, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 28, 2014 What's the difference with the Metropolitan livery? Plenty of pics of the LT ones online but can't find the older metropolitan even on models. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Smith Posted September 28, 2014 Share Posted September 28, 2014 (edited) What's the difference with the Metropolitan livery? Plenty of pics of the LT ones online but can't find the older metropolitan even on models.With acknowledgement to the person who sent me this picture a while ago - here is the recreated Metropolitan livery on Sarah Siddons. Differences from the LT post-war livery are:-- lighter shade of red, Metropolitan red was originally thought to be Midland red but became darker over the years until reaching the LT version as on No 5 in the LT Museum. - full lining, at one time there was black between the yellow lines - more elaborate three part nameplate - Metropolitan crests - different number font Edited September 28, 2014 by Jeff Smith 9 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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