Waddon Marsh Revived!

[dasatcopthorne]

Hi Guys.

 

All this talk of Waddon etc. and the Carshalton & Sutton club is being monitored.

 

Careful what you say. :-))).

 

Nice to see my old friend Colin on here.

 

FYI the club is going strong and can be found at www.csmrc.co.uk.

 

There is also a current thread in 'Layouts' re the Falcon Road TMD and Oil Drum Lane layout.

 

I'm enjoying all these reminiscences though.

 

Yours.

 

Dave Smith

Hon. Secretary

Carshalton and Sutton MRC. :-))))

[Nickinwestwales]

Well what a wonderful medium this is-I threw in a couple of off-hand notes about operating practices and within 48 hrs we have a comprehensive list of what,when & where-excellent !-plus enough local nostalgia to delight this Old Purleian,many years removed from his old stamping ground-thank you gents !!

Lifeboatman-some good clean solid looking benchwork there mate,your comment about the board looking too small is a reasonable one,although I suspect not unusual when we see our 2D ideas take 3D shape and as I recall,the station was pretty tightly hemmed in and always looked slightly out of place in its environment-given your preferred time frame might I suggest that the Purley Way bridge should have a solid block of traffic on the southbound side,backed up from the Beddington lane traffic lights-I seem to recall spending endless minutes inching along from the Lombard roundabout.

Another impertinent suggestion if I may-although crossing there was evidently a rarity I feel that could provide a valuable operating feature ( why have a crossing loop & not use it.....)

As this topic seems to take in the C&SMRC-at least peripherally,do any of you recall a Tony McDermitt (Spelling questionable) A fellow biker who I used to see in the Railway Hotel in Purley who was a big man for Japanese Railways & actually had an almost unheard of N gauge J.R.layout built back in the late 70`s-believe he used to hang out with that crew...regards to all.

[Pete 75C]

The 33+VEP Motor Coach+ED combination... now that appeals to my liking of the unusual! A Hornby VEP was never going to be on my stock list for this layout because of the length of a 4 car unit and the fact that they wouldn't have been seen on this line. Now if I can just find a broken motor coach on ebay...

Colin - my brother who is just over 10 years older than me spent some time annexed in Carew Manor in the park before joining the main school. I can't remember the reason or for how long that arrangement lasted.

Nick, it is a pleasant change to have a simple flat-top baseboard to work with after a couple of open-frame efforts of mine which were a touch too complicated with different track levels etc. I like the idea of traffic backed up in one lane on the bridge, it's little details like that that can bring a layout to life.

My thoughts are now turning to tracklaying and wiring but there is something or rather two "somethings" that I want to incorporate into this layout. I saw the South Eastern layout Meopham East a while back and the use of cheap camera flashguns to simulate 3rd rail arcing as the shoe left the conductor rail was, in my mind, very effective. Having decided to go for DCC, I'm aware that arcing can be simulated by a tiny LED in place of a pick-up shoe and controlled by one of the decoder functions, but the tiny blue flash from the LED is to my mind a little unrealistic and you have to be looking right at the shoe to even notice it at all. Having spent the latter part of my railway career driving VEPs and sliding door stock out of Selhurst and Horsham, I'm very familiar with the real-life white arc flash and I think the camera flash replicates that extremely well in miniature. One flashgun will be concealed under the baseboard close to the pointwork at either end of the island platform to simulate arcing as the unit leaves the station under power in each direction. Just a small aperture needs to cut through the baseboard and covered with a weathered piece of perspex. A very simple idea and one that I plan to shamelessly  copy! With a couple of cheap flashguns and a packet of reed switches and magnets, it's certainly worth experimenting with, I think.

More soon, Pete.

 

 

[dasatcopthorne]

As this topic seems to take in the C&SMRC-at least peripherally,do any of you recall a Tony McDermitt (Spelling questionable) A fellow biker who I used to see in the Railway Hotel in Purley who was a big man for Japanese Railways & actually had an almost unheard of N gauge J.R.layout built back in the late 70`s-believe he used to hang out with that crew...regards to all.

Nick.

 

Tony McDiarmid (spelling) can be found on the yahoo group Semg (Southern email group).

He now live in Germany and has a layouts based on the LSWR section of the SR.

 

He was a member of C&SMRC and is still a friend. (Well that's my version anyway).

 

BTW. Did we meet in front of the DCKits stand yesterday?

 

Dave Smith

[dasatcopthorne]

The 33+VEP Motor Coach+ED combination... now that appeals to my liking of the unusual! A Hornby VEP was never going to be on my stock list for this layout because of the length of a 4 car unit and the fact that they wouldn't have been seen on this line. Now if I can just find a broken motor coach on ebay...

Colin - my brother who is just over 10 years older than me spent some time annexed in Carew Manor in the park before joining the main school. I can't remember the reason or for how long that arrangement lasted.

Nick, it is a pleasant change to have a simple flat-top baseboard to work with after a couple of open-frame efforts of mine which were a touch too complicated with different track levels etc. I like the idea of traffic backed up in one lane on the bridge, it's little details like that that can bring a layout to life.

My thoughts are now turning to tracklaying and wiring but there is something or rather two "somethings" that I want to incorporate into this layout. I saw the South Eastern layout Meopham East a while back and the use of cheap camera flashguns to simulate 3rd rail arcing as the shoe left the conductor rail was, in my mind, very effective. Having decided to go for DCC, I'm aware that arcing can be simulated by a tiny LED in place of a pick-up shoe and controlled by one of the decoder functions, but the tiny blue flash from the LED is to my mind a little unrealistic and you have to be looking right at the shoe to even notice it at all. Having spent the latter part of my railway career driving VEPs and sliding door stock out of Selhurst and Horsham, I'm very familiar with the real-life white arc flash and I think the camera flash replicates that extremely well in miniature. One flashgun will be concealed under the baseboard close to the pointwork at either end of the island platform to simulate arcing as the unit leaves the station under power in each direction. Just a small aperture needs to cut through the baseboard and covered with a weathered piece of perspex. A very simple idea and one that I plan to shamelessly  copy! With a couple of cheap flashguns and a packet of reed switches and magnets, it's certainly worth experimenting with, I think.

More soon, Pete.

 

flash.jpg

Pete.

 

Be careful.

 

Placing a flash gun tube too close to something can burn it out very quickly.

 

With extra bright LEDs these days being so small, why not fit two and face them at the viewer?

 

Dave

[Pete 75C]

Pete.

Be careful.

Placing a flash gun tube too close to something can burn it out very quickly.

With extra bright LEDs these days being so small, why not fit two and face them at the viewer?

Dave

 

Thanks for the tip Dave. The flashguns are only an inch deep and with 3 inches of baseboard framing, I had planned to space them away from the ply top in a lightproof sub-box. If it doesn't work, there's always a plan B. I will take a look at the extra bright LEDs, as the ones I originally had in mind seemed quite subdued. Pete.

 

Edit: that's actually set me thinking... I have a couple of new Renault sidelight bulbs in the garage which are actually 4 tiny white extra-bright LEDs in a cluster which connect to a standard 12v T10 bulb holder. I'll have to have a play around with those. Thanks again for the idea.

Edited March 23, 2014 by Pete 75C

[coline33]

Pete and Nick. My first form and Geography master was a Mr. Barrington-Tatsford and if only I had known then that he was a railway book author!!! He was there until the end of my first year. It was a decade before John Smith accepted me for being more that just one of those 'kids sending me into the cellar for back numbers' that he told me who he was. Regarding the VEP motor coach, I wonder if the body shell is available from one of Hornby spare parts suppliers?

 

Dave. Despite the silence since we last met at your Epsom Downs racecourse show, I have been keeping an eye on you!!! My 2-WIM is still with the first coach at floor level! I had been offered the chance that if I produced a second set of parts, a resin kit could be produced. I still mull this over but am impressed with the Shapeways process. If there was interest then it could spur me on further with the 2-WIM and eventually the 2-SL. I loved travelling on the 2-WIMs with their distinctive smell and the comfort of those deeply upholstered seats. Any chance of getting Hornby to do the 2-NOL after the 2-HAL? My 2-HAL is on pre-order so I am looking forward to this summer and pulling up the number two 'half' stencils at each end. My 2-EPB is so numbered each end leaving me to now add the removable rear oil lamp!

[coline33]

Pete, sorry to put a shot across your bows, but do you realise that the last freight through 'your side of Waddon Marsh bridge' was in March 1972 with coal empties being cleared. Thereafter, the only freight was the Fawley oil tank train via Wimbledon which was handled on 'Ernie's side of Waddon Marsh bridge'. I do not think therefore that there was much dereliction to be seen in 1972. After that date there was just the passenger service plus special workings. Mentioning dereliction, special workings and referring to your comment on another forum about plated-over gangways on 4-COR units, some 4-COR coaches were partially stripped at Beddington Lane Sidings in your period and their remains hauled through 'your part of Waddon Marsh'. Over the past fortnight I have passed all my data on Waddon Marsh to Ernie to share with you. I still think the period 1965 to 1970 would give you the best minimal operational pattern for 'your side'. Colin.

[Pete 75C]

Pete, sorry to put a shot across your bows, but do you realise that the last freight through 'your side of Waddon Marsh bridge' was in March 1972

 

That useful old chestnut "modeller's license" might have to come into play, Colin! Now where's my 456 in Connex livery...? Joking about the 456, but I will have to play around with historical fact to incorporate what I want in the era that I want to portray. I think "what if?" might be a couple of words used often!

[The Bigbee Line]

Does that mean I can't run my 5-BEL as a mis-routed special?

 

Seriously, a little modellers license is quite useful, a few years here and a few years there.  I can tell you that when looking for steam loco's for the diesel / steam transition on the Central and South Eastern Sections, a browse through withdrawal dates can be quite depressing. 

 

My own 'requirements' are to use the following:  diesels 03, 04,24 and 33.  steam loco's C, T9, M7, E4, The E4's for example were withdrawn by 1963 and my investment in Hornby Maunsell coaches were slashed after the Kent Coast electrification.  So I need to be a bit relaxed.

 

The other option is to pick a particular day and be very draconian.

 

That's my 2 cents, off to fit my replacement Bachmann motor into the N class.

[Pete 75C]

It's a good point and I've always felt that the "modellers license" card is a handy one to have in the pack. Now as we know, blue is my preference but Colin and others have thrown up such a mouthwatering selection of possible stock for the line, that it would be a shame not to run something out of period once in a while. Bizarrely I also have a fondness for AC electrics, but having a Crompton haul a "dead" 85 through Waddon Marsh would just be stupid... Shame.

[coline33]

Pete, why not a special working taking a Class 85 from Willesden to Selhurst for traction motor repair behind a Class 33 or 73 or 74.

 

Ernie, E4s were allocated to Norwood shed but I have only seen photos of E4Xs on Waddon Marsh trains - surely there must have been a time when a loco inspector had inadvertently put an E4 on by mistake. Like the Norwood depot tram inspector who put a wooden bodied car through the Kingsway Subway on service 33 when wooden bodied cars had always been banned! What is more I have photos to prove that! Anyway, I shall be getting an E4.

 

When it comes to the 5-BEL, well I am only interested the 1948 liveried version, which I read somewhere Hornby will be releasing in the future. Alas I cannot find any record of such a rail tour with it through Waddon Marsh in any livery, but Ernie if yours is blue/grey then the "Farewell" rail tour could have had an "overlow" the same day using the remaining single unit and adding a run along the WC-W! Colin.

[coline33]

My sincere apologies, Pete, I misread my note on the closure of the Goods Line which greatly alters the scene for you. The last Special Traffic Notice was for March, 1977 - not 1972. Colin.

[Pete 75C]

My sincere apologies, Pete, I misread my note on the closure of the Goods Line which greatly alters the scene for you. The last Special Traffic Notice was for March, 1977 - not 1972. Colin.

 

Certainly no apology needed! 1977 does suit me rather better than 1972, I must admit...

[Nickinwestwales]

Dave-thanks for the update R.E Tony McD-good to know he is still about,-`Twas not me at the D.C Kits stand-was at an exhibition of the Cardi Bach ( GWR Cardigan branch) in Whitland in bracing west Wales at the time...honest guv..

 

Pete-Nice idea R.E the flashs-the few I`ve seen have looked effective,but would recommend some trial & error here-some strike my eye as too blue & others as too yellow-straying into the esoteric realm of scaling down light ...Delighted to find a former Selhurst man-my maternal grandfather worked there for many years until his retirement in `65

 

Colin-When would the goods line have been lifted ??-I have recollections of using Beddington Lane halt maybe as late as `82 and there still being a second line east of the level crossing-assume this was the goods line.?... but happy to accept it may have been earlier...

 

Enjoying the company,ATB

Nick

[Smiffy2]

As another Old Walcountian, perhaps we should have our own sub-forum!  Born in St Helier Hospital and brought up near Waddon station I used to cycle to Waddon Park, before we moved to Carshalton Beeches, and occasionally was rewarded when one of the coal trains clanked its way round the curve from West Croydon.  Childhood memories seem to include seeing an H16 4-6-2T and W 2-6-4T as well as, probably, BR standard tanks, although I cannot recall any tender locos during that period (end of the fifties) although I watched N class 2-6-0's shunting at Wallington station from a friend's back garden which overlooked the goods yard. I, too, although aware of its existence, never joined the C&SMRC, although I did go to some of their exhibitions/open days at their Manor Road premises.

I'm another one. But I got expelled... When I was sent off to Glastonbury Boys it meant that I could watch the Q1s delivering and shunting milk wagons to the Express Dairy depôt that's now the Ahmaadiya mosque. I used to be woken by a West Country/BofB pulling a milk train out of Carshalton station every morning. Still living in Carshalton, so if anyone's got any more info about Wallington station and goods yard in the early 50s I'd love to share it.

Edited March 25, 2014 by Smiffy2

[dasatcopthorne]

I'm another one. But I got expelled... When I was sent off to Glastonbury Boys it meant that I could watch the Q1s delivering and shunting milk wagons to the Express Dairy depôt that's now the Ahmaadiya mosque. I used to be woken by a West Country/BofB pulling a milk train out of Carshalton station every morning. Still living in Carshalton, so if anyone's got any more info about Wallington station and goods yard in the early 50s I'd love to share it.

It always surprises me when such as us seem to still have connections (albeit vague as on here) after dispersing so widely around the Country and still seem to find these threads where we 'meet'.

 

Dave Smith.

C&SMRC (member since 1969)

Hon. Secretary

Born St Helier Hospital

Went to Canterbury Road Boys School (remember playing Glastonbury in Rugby)

 

Cheers Guys

 

Dave

[Clive Mortimore]

Waddon Marsh seems to be a popular place to go, http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/69407-waddon-marsh-and-croydon-power-station-track-plan/

[coline33]

Yes, Dave, great way for us all to get together again and I expect I am not the only one wondering for what Smiffy got expelled and when!!! Incidentally Dave, I still operate one of the trams from the Manor Park days on "West Croydon". If you come to the Wimbledon MRC show in November then look out for white roofed E/1 1083 (reserve car for service 42).

 

Nick, as far as I am aware in my notes on WC-W, I have no track lifting dates. I tend to stop at closure dates as I hate the negativity that surrounds them. The WC-W passenger service first went on Waterloo's closure list in 1951, but no significant savings could be made due to the high level of freight. It arose again in 1962 on the 'unofficial list' but the result was still the same. Closure loomed again in 1971 and the line remained under a cloud until reprieved in July, 1974. Although closure of the Goods Line was stated in "Croydon's Railways" as 1st February, 1976, this is wrong. I suspect it was the date when the WTT stopped referring to regular operation over it. Fortunately, Geoff Smith was able to find the Special Traffic Notices which showed the last mention of movements over the Goods Line in March, 1977. Now to the Goods Siding which you would have seen from Beddington Lane. Although a continuation of the Goods Line, the operational divide was at the Waddon Marsh signal box which was resited to there in 1930 for the opening of the Goods Line and Goods Siding. The Goods Line was controlled by both West Croydon 'B' and Waddon Marsh boxes, whereas the Goods Siding was used by permission of the Beddington Lane and Waddon Marsh boxes for entry/exit but all other movements between boxes were performed by the train crew as they required. I trust I have given a basic view although there were a lot of instructions on how to use the Goods Siding.

 

Kind regards to all, Colin.

.

[coline33]

Clive, I have just seen your post and some how the confusion on having the subject on at least three/four forums has caused me to respond to you on the power stations one.   Certainly to stop confusion I am only posting here from now on and ignoring the 1970's tag as really the 1950s, 1960s and 1970s until 1984 is so interwoven when it comes to freight operations, and I see we have in this forum interest across these years.   For instance when did the Goods Rings come off the signals - for the Goods Line I have 23rd February,1954 as they did not comply with BR practice!   Its snippets like that coming up in conversation that could be a benefit for others.

 

So Pete, can this forum be retitled?   Colin.

[Pete 75C]

Colin, I'm incredibly grateful for all the prototype info that's flowing into this thread, my Waddon Marsh layout will benefit enormously. I could alter the thread title, but it's currently in "Layout Topics" so for that reason I'd rather keep the title "as is" to follow the construction of the layout as it develops beyond bare boards. I started a thread on Waddon Marsh (prototype) a while back whilst preparing for this layout, so maybe that might be the best place? Either way, I'm finding it all enormously useful... keep it coming!

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/82808-railways-around-waddon-marsh-croydon/

Pete.

Edited March 25, 2014 by Pete 75C

[Pete 75C]

There seems to be a Norfolk-wide shortage of Peco Code 75 flexi, so it looks like I'll need to buy a whole box mail-order. I had planned to construct the station platform over the weekend (just gone) but I decided that probably wasn't a good idea until I can get the track at least loosely in place to test clearances etc. Thoughts have now turned to the Purley Way road bridge and having zoomed in on a still from the Britain From Above website, I've ascertained that pre-rebuilding, it was a pretty standard 2 carriageway road with pavement either side, so I'll work from that. The stepped pedestrian descent from the pavement towards the halt is also just visible.

 

 

 

[coline33]

Thanks, Pete, there is also a forum under "London Goods facilities in the Southern Region" under Prototype.   It is here that I have responded about the Pointers sand train that came through Waddon Marsh on the Passenger Line for delivery of sand to the Blue Circle sidings from 1967 to 1971.   It is an interesting working into those sidings from the Beddington Lane end.

 

So as you can see I find I am having too many threads!   So I will read "1950s, 1960s, 1970s and 1980s" in place of "1970s" in your title and continue here, to ensure nothing I can add is missed for all to use as they want.

 

Track supply is a nuisance and at 25 lengths a go for posting, is expensive.   With the disappearance of the old Modelzone in Croydon (forget the new one in Smith's and alas the former staff who opened up in the basement of the former Allders store only carry kits and scenery items) I am forced to go to Tattenham Corner as my nearest but very now and again I do get to Gaugemaster at Ford in Sussex for the heavy stuff.   For my lighter items both they and Kernow do me proud.

 

Good blow-up of the original bridge and I will revert with bus details for some thing to go on it!   You would not want to model the present bridge which I hate, using it quite a bit to get to Ikea, Homebase, B&Q, Sainsburys, Hobbycraft, etc.   I would use the tram straight from home to Waddon Marsh but I go to Sainsbury's for the cheapest diesel and there were complications in my getting entry to the Ampere Way stop from Homebase and Courts (now Matalan) in the development stage of Croydon Tramlink as it was then.   Colin.

[The Bigbee Line]

There seems to be a Norfolk-wide shortage of Peco Code 75 flexi, so it looks like I'll need to buy a whole box mail-order. I had planned to construct the station platform over the weekend (just gone) but I decided that probably wasn't a good idea until I can get the track at least loosely in place to test clearances etc. Thoughts have now turned to the Purley Way road bridge and having zoomed in on a still from the Britain From Above website, I've ascertained that pre-rebuilding, it was a pretty standard 2 carriageway road with pavement either side, so I'll work from that. The stepped pedestrian descent from the pavement towards the halt is also just visible.

 

4-8-4.jpg

Pete,

 

I wasn't aware of the Code 75 shortage.  I was in GE Models and had heart failure at the price of a Code 75 Single Slip.  They only had insulfrog so I avoided the pain.

 

Anyway enough waffle.  Nice picture of the bridge, do you have one at higher resolution?

 

Thanks,

[coline33]

Modelling the buses for Purley Way bridge, I recommend <www.londonbuses.co.uk> for full details of routes 115 (1948-1981) and 289 (1981 to date). D type buses from Sutton garage used 1948-1953, RT type during 1948-1971 from South Croydon, Sutton and Thornton Heath garages, SMS type 1971-1980 and DMS type 1980-1981 from Thornton Heath garage on 115. LS type from Elmers End garage on 289 until 1987 when London Country took over. So really no need to look later than 1984 unless a passenger service only with dereliction interest you!