Traeth Mawr -Painting Season, (mostly)

[Jock67B]

Penlan,

A superb link to a useful source of information. I have blown up and printed the ones that cover Hurlford67B!

Chris, at this rate, you are going to end up with information overload!

Kind regards,

Jock.

[ChrisN]

Nice photos and both definitely Y Drenewydd/Newtown. I had wondered if the eastern end was originally a small ticket office with the sales window facing the stairs but I can find no evidence to support the idea.

 

Looking through those photos, the waiting shelter at Llanbrynmair seems to be of the same general style as Newtown, but without the enclosed end sections and shorter.

 

One odd fact I gleaned talking to Peter is that he thinks there was originally a small turntable alongside the up platform at the up end. His reason for thinking this is that there is a curved boundary wall at this point, and that there was once a well very close by (where the modern steps are). Not sure that is any use to the builder of Traeth Mawr though.

 

When it comes to linking families there is another big issue of course. Are they Whigs or Tories? That nice Mr Davies was a Whig but a rather non-conforming one. He was MP for the Aberystwyth area when  he wasn't building railways and digging coal mines. The Tories hated him. I can't imagine that a Tory would let his daughter marry a Whig family son.

 

Jonathan

 

Yes, this is a good point.  The constituency of Traeth Mawr and the Naf valley have been Liberal and Whig before that for quite a while.  The previous MP was Rhodryi Jenkins who campaigned to have the station built at Traeth Mawr and the present one is Robert Lewis.  (I think he wants to make a speech when the first train has run.)  Well Liberal MPs do not get elected unless there are liberal voters and as the Labour movement has not really taken hold it would seem likely that Mr Price is a Liberal, although he probably did not vote in this constituency in the last election.  I have asked him but he said, "That is none of your business.  It is a secret ballot and who I vote for is my own business."

 

I asked about his family. " I have three sons and two daughters.  The eldest lad works as a Passed Cleaner for the Cambrian, good lad he is.  Will have to lodge away now I have moved here.  Next is my eldest daughter.  She is still with us.  Helps her mother around the house at present but we have suggested she gets a job in a shop in town.  Very good seamstress she is.  Had a job in our last place before we moved.  The middle son is a porter.  Works at my old station.  He is not too far away so travels by train there every day.  My youngest son has just got a job as a junior clerk in the railway.  Oh where.  Umm, yes, Traeth Mawr.  I hope this does not set a precedent with Station Masters having their sons working for them.  The youngest girl is nearly twelve and hopes to get a scholarship to the girls school.  If she gets it I would be very proud but I am not sure it would be of much use.  Still, if she wants to go and it is free, well I have to think of my position in the town you know."

 

I then spoke to him about Blanche.  "O I don't know.  A posh English girl you say.  I would prefer a nice Welsh girl for my sons, nice and homely.  Anyway, I am not sure her father would want her to mix with people like me.  Not posh enough even though I am now a Station Master of rather an important station.  That is why I have a silver cap band.  It would not be my eldest as he his courting.  I think he is going to propose when he is made up to a fireman.  Well, that is what my wife tells me his girlfriend thinks.  The middle one is sixteen so a little young."

 

So there we have it.  I managed to talk to him without him asking about the shelter, or the platforms, or his building, although he did give me some knowing looks.

[ChrisN]

There was a turntable to the east of the bridge - ref 'Old Maps' 1885 Edition - 1:500 scale.

This may work >>>>> https://www.old-maps.co.uk/#/Map/311500/291500/13/100924

But you have to zoom out/in to see it.

 

Thank you.  This is very interesting.  The shelter does not appear to be there before the 1902 map.

[Anotheran]

Did Mr Price have a vote at all? The Representation of the People Act 1884 had extended suffrage to all men over the age of 21 who either paid an annual rental more than £10 per year or owned land worth more than £10. I assume Mr Price lived in the station master's house, which would have come with the job. So as he wasn't paying rent, did he own £10 of land elsewhere? Or did the Act allow for such situations and give such tied property a rental value for the purposes of suffrage? 

[ChrisN]

Did Mr Price have a vote at all? The Representation of the People Act 1884 had extended suffrage to all men over the age of 21 who either paid an annual rental more than £10 per year or owned land worth more than £10. I assume Mr Price lived in the station master's house, which would have come with the job. So as he wasn't paying rent, did he own £10 of land elsewhere? Or did the Act allow for such situations and give such tied property a rental value for the purposes of suffrage? 

 

Neil,

That is a good question.  I quickly checked before I wrote the post and for 'Counties', which was different from 'Boroughs' I thought I saw a sentence that said, 'has lived for than a year in a property that comes with an occupation', but I will go away and check again later.

[Anotheran]

That is a good question.  I quickly checked before I wrote the post and for 'Counties', which was different from 'Boroughs' I thought I saw a sentence that said, 'has lived for than a year in a property that comes with an occupation', but I will go away and check again later.

 

I thought I'd take a look myself (I should have done before my previous post I hear you all shout!) Archive.org came up trumps with a copy of the Act (I'm sure the parliamentary site would also have had it somewhere!).

 

Section 3 - Tenure of house by office or service not to invalidate vote states that "Where a man himself occupies a dwelling-house by virtue of any office, service, or employment, and the dwelling-house is not inhabited by any person under whom such man serves in such office, service, or employment, he shall be deemed for the purposes of this Act and of the Representation of the People Act to be an inhabitant occupier of such dwelling-house as a tenant."

 

So Mr Price would have had a vote, qualifying through the station master's house... as long as there wasn't, for example, a director of the railway company living there as well

Edited October 28, 2015 by Anotheran

[ChrisN]

I thought I'd take a look myself (I should have done before my previous post I hear you all shout!) Archive.org came up trumps with a copy of the Act (I'm sure the parliamentary site would also have had it somewhere!).

 

Section 3 - Tenure of house by office or service not to invalidate vote states that "Where a man himself occupies a dwelling-house by virtue of any office, service, or employment, and the dwelling-house is not inhabited by any person under whom such man serves in such office, service, or employment, he shall be deemed for the purposes of this Act and of the Representation of the People Act to be an inhabitant occupier of such dwelling-house as a tenant."

 

So Mr Price would have had a vote, qualifying through the station master's house... as long as there wasn't, for example, a director of the railway company living there as well

 

Neil,

Thank you.  I thought I had read that.  So all the male servants in Downton and other places would not have had the vote then?  That is how I read it, but I might be wrong.

[Penlan]

.....  I have asked him but he said, "That is none of your business.  It is a secret ballot and who I vote for is my own business."....

 

When people ask me (outside Polling* Stations etc.,who I voted for, I have a similar reply to above..

"People die everyday somewhere in the world trying to achieve democracy through a secret ballot, I cherish the fact I have one, so you may ask me, but you are definately not going to get an answer".

That seems to slow them down a bit - And as I walk away they are probably saying something like "What a cacky bus'tard..."

 

* Polling Station ? I can't find a 'Polling Station' in my 1904 RCH Handbook (reprint).

Though there is a Pollington Colliery (Nr. Langley Mill & Eastwood).

Edited October 28, 2015 by Penlan

[Penlan]

..... did he own £10 of land elsewhere? 

I tried that for a vote in the Scottish Referendum - I own a piece of land in Scotland.    

I paid £475 for many years ago.  But my application was declined

.

It measures 6' x 4' in Inverkeilor Churchyard, there are already some inhabitants occupying the land, I have to admit I'm hoping it will be a few more years yet before I take up my long term occupancy too.     

[Anotheran]

When people ask me (outside Polling* Stations etc.,who I voted for, I have a similar reply to above..

 

On polling day for the 1983 General Election workers for the Conservative candidate knocked on the door and said "Good afternoon Mr Reynolds, have you voted today? If not would you like a lift to the polling station?" I looked past them at what I thought was a rather flashy car (I think it was just an expensive Jag, but it looked flashy to me at the time) and replied "No I haven't voted today, and yes I would like a lift in your car". When we got to the polling station I got out and started walking home. They said "Are you not going to vote?" My response was "No, I'm only 14, you were probably looking for my Dad, but I only gave you honest answers, which is more than we'll get from you for the next five years."

 

My best election speech ever 

 

Sorry Chris, rather off topic!

[Anotheran]

Thank you.  I thought I had read that.  So all the male servants in Downton and other places would not have had the vote then?  That is how I read it, but I might be wrong.

 

That's correct. Until 1918 about 40% of men over 21 didn't have the right to vote. A significant percentage still had the right to vote more than once because of the university constituencies or owning property in a different constituency from which you lived (which were both still the case until 1948).

[John_Miles]

Sandy - Mousehole to Inverkeilor - that's a hell of a trip for a hearse.

[corneliuslundie]

Remember of course that in 1895 we were only just coming to the end of the period when landlords would effectively force their tenants to vote for the party they supported. There is a lot about it relevant to the area in David Davies' biography. But a stationmaster would have been free of that.

 

Anyway, having caused one diversion can i cause another small one please? Does anyone know when coloured dye began to be used to identify sheep flocks?.I am pretty sure it was after 1895 but was it before 1930?

 

And the position Peter was suggesting for an early turntable was on the north (up) side of the station to the west of the small road bridge, where the end of the platform is now. It would have had to be small, and I wonder if it was there until the through station was built.

 

Jonathan

[Edwardian]

Another surviving aspect of feudalism was encountered in the Cheshire Yeomanry; many of those who went off to the Great War in their ranks had service in the Yeomanry as a condition of their tenancies on the Grosvenor family estates. 

[Penlan]

Sandy - Mousehole to Inverkeilor - that's a hell of a trip for a hearse.

Well, without going into details - why shouldn't my offspring suffer too.... Like I did/do.

But, unlike my forebears, I will be in a small casket to ease their pain.

Further, hopefully they will have sobered up from the Wake... 

I have to change the band's name every few years as they come and go,

but my solicitor drew up a good Will, which includes a reasonable sum, devoid of all taxes etc., 

(presumably a nett sum) for the provision of a wake - this sum is revised every so often.. 

'Mousehole to Inverkeilor - that's a hell of a trip for a hearse'.

Well if I can do a solo drive from John O'Groat's to Mousehole in a 1934 Austin 7 in under 24 hours (in 2012)

They can make a little bit of effort to get me up there.    

You know me John, all heart.

 

Edited October 29, 2015 by Penlan

[ChrisN]

Remember of course that in 1895 we were only just coming to the end of the period when landlords would effectively force their tenants to vote for the party they supported. There is a lot about it relevant to the area in David Davies' biography. But a stationmaster would have been free of that.

 

Anyway, having caused one diversion can i cause another small one please? Does anyone know when coloured dye began to be used to identify sheep flocks?.I am pretty sure it was after 1895 but was it before 1930?

 

And the position Peter was suggesting for an early turntable was on the north (up) side of the station to the west of the small road bridge, where the end of the platform is now. It would have had to be small, and I wonder if it was there until the through station was built.

 

Jonathan

 

Jonathan,

I have no idea about the sheep so I have put out a question to people who might know; not directly though so it might take a while even if it gets through.  Having said that I remember the dye when I was in my early twenties but not when I was a lad in the 50s, but that might mean I just did no t notice it.

[Penlan]

Vol. 2 of The Monthly Genesee Farmer for 1837, lists, Chalk - Red or Black, Tar and preferably Red or Black paint (Lamp Black) mixed with Drying Linseed Oil.

 

Edited October 30, 2015 by Penlan

[Mikkel]

 My youngest son has just got a job as a junior clerk in the railway.  Oh where.  Umm, yes, Traeth Mawr.  I hope this does not set a precedent with Station Masters having their sons working for them. 

 

Chris, I really enjoyed your conversation with the good Station Master. The quote above made me wonder about recruiting procedures for station staff in those times. Would it have been done by the company at HQ, or would a local Station Master have had some influence on the process? I have no idea, but if anyone does it would be interesting to hear.

[ChrisN]

Chris, I really enjoyed your conversation with the good Station Master. The quote above made me wonder about recruiting procedures for station staff in those times. Would it have been done by the company at HQ, or would a local Station Master have had some influence on the process? I have no idea, but if anyone does it would be interesting to hear.

 

Mikkel,

That is a good question and should be easy to answer if you knew where to look.  I assume that the Station Master had the power over his own staff in the Station. In the 1901 Barmouth Census the eldest son of the Station Master, and he was about 14, is listed a a Railway Clerk.  I cannot imagine he asent in an application and had an interview.

[Mikkel]

Ah, well that's good evidence from the real world. Maybe the Station Master was reponsible for hiring for some positions, while others belonged to more centrally controlled departments where special training etc was needed (eg signalmen).

[corneliuslundie]

I don't know about other companies, or as early as 1895, but in later days on the GWR there were certainly central interviewing procedures. I am sure there is a rather melodramatic description in one of those anonymous autobiographies (was it Muddle Junction?). And for any member of staff having work connected with train operation there would have been a colour blindness test at HQ. But the initial selection might well have been local.

Jonathan

[ChrisN]

My thoughts are well and truly with the shelter, even though today I will be laying the last piece of track.  I had thought that I would make the wooden sections from coffee stirrers, well why not.  Well I wanted to see if I could and that the result was alright by doing the single section first.  However, seeing the picture from 1965 and the windows has given me food for thought.  Having a structure that only connects with plastic at a few points is one thing, but to have a window which will be plastic I think is too much.  So I shall work with plasticard although I have not decided whether to use sheet and score the planks or use strip and build it as it would have been.  The roof looks like planks with an asphalt cover so it may have been tarred originally.  When did asphalt sheets come in? 

 

What has been concerning me are the valences, or is it, 'is the valence'?  This photo shows it clearly.  I have looked for commercially available ones and none match, not even come close, (York Modelmaking and Peedee Models).  I had thought I could make them but I gave myself a good slapping; they are 2mm across and there are nearly 150 of them!  I thought I would approach a company and ask them to specifically make them as others would want a Cambrian valance.  I thought before I did this I would check some photos to see if this valance was actually common.  Yes, you guessed it.  The brief survey I did shows where valences were used each one was different, completely different.

 

As this shelter is newly built ready for the increased traffic at Traeth Mawr and as it is the prototype of the one to be built at Newtown a few years latter I might just use a generic one, but if anyone has any thoughts they again would be welcome.

 

If you have been, thanks for looking.

[corneliuslundie]

Monthly Genesee Farmer is obviously compulsory (compulsive?) reader in "West Wales".

 

Thanks.

 

Jonathan

[ChrisN]

Jonathan,

On page 53 of 'Caersws, The Cambrian Railways Village', (yes I am getting through it slowly), it says in the second paragraph labelled 'Moat Lane Junction', "A site for turntables and other facilities at Newtown was abandoned but the site can still be discerned close to Brimmon bridge."  Is that the bridge where you think there is a turntable site?  If so you are right but it has no more information.

[ChrisN]

Well over the last couple of weeks I have struggled to find time to work on the actual layout but last week I got the final lengths of track cut, then added droppers.  I had to remove the front right hand board so that I could ease the two back boards away from each other to cut the track and then tighten them together again to actually lay it so that they would be in the correct position when glued down.  The three left hand lines in the photo below also needed an extra cut as there needs to be an insulated join.  The one on the right had the insulation at the end of track join.  You will note all the section ends are at different places as the track length of each road is different as the insulation is exactly in the middle, giving two equal track lengths.  Notice how straight and true the track has been laid.     There are no apparent kinks and both the truck and the coach run over the lines and the joins with no problem.

 

 

This section picture shows my dodgy soldering, still the rail is level on either side so I should not complain.

 

 

You notice how much junk working paraphernalia the layout attracts.  This had to be cleared so that the back right hand board could be removed and the two left hand boards be moved so that I could get around the back.  (Yep, the layout could not be any bigger and fit the room.)

 

I actually had what I thought was going to be a whole day on the layout on Friday.  The day did not disappear as has happened almost every time I have had a day.  So, having been shopping I tidied up, moved the boards and added the track.  Fitted it, cut it, added the droppers, nearly forgot those, and then glued it down.  The fitting and gluing seemed too easy but it looks alright.  I was going to split the boards again to cut but the point on the back board is at a slight angle to the edge and not perpendicular to it.  This was not intentional and it meant that having held the track down with drawing pins I had to lay it over the point and cut it like that.  It was ok but could have been better.  At least there is not a large gap at either end.

 

 

This one is looking towards the fiddleyard.

 

 

I think this was taken before the track was soldered to the screws, but it has been now and it is both level and true to gauge over the join.  (I feel I should do one of those 'Can you spot' questions,  In the picture can you see, a box of cocktail sticks, a real of solder, coat hangers.............  Maybe not.)  The sleeper spacing worked fairly well but again I am not sure all the sleepers are perpendicular to the curve of the track.

 

I actually have all the point motors and fixings, all Peco, so the next thing is to get on with the wiring.  I am a bit nervous for some reason about fitting the point motors, and I have not even thought about a control panel, or bought the controller, (the money was needed elsewhere.)  Still I need to get on with it as my son keeps asking, 'Will it be ready for Christmas?  Give him his due he did ask me to build this two years ago, and his son is getting older every day and he is now three.  So, can I do the shelter and the wiring before Christmas? 

 

If you have been, thanks for looking.

Edited November 1, 2015 by ChrisN