Traeth Mawr -Painting Season, (mostly)

[ChrisN]

One thing with a telephone is that is has little use if no one else has a phone to either call or be called by. So I imagine the coal office would not have a phone in 1895 as few of its customers would have one.  In those days  telephones were collected by open wires. Indeed in rural areas I can remember running open wires in the 60s and they were still including it in the training during the 70s. Back to 1895 there are photos of early telephone exchanges with a monstrous assembly mounted on the roof to connect up all the wires. Andy G gives some useful info on UAXs which were small automatic exchanges for rural areas. However in the early days they were manual boards. I had the pleasure of working at the one in Wokingham ( telephone operators seemed to find embarrassing young trainees a favourite sport) and also the nearby one at Hurst which was in the front room of a cottage worked by Husband and Wife.  I could imagine Traeth Mawr having such an exchange but not in 1895.

The other factor is the running of the wires. So far as I know the railway co and GPO equipment was kept separate.  The railway had its own internal phones often these were shared lines where a number of signal boxes for example all had a phone on a common line. The Station would have had a GPO line at some stage probably when there was some suitable customers. Our house when I was a boy was part of a Victorian terrace but when we had the telephone installed during the 50s the GPO had to put in a couple of poles to connect us up obviously the had not been any phones in those houses before.

Incidently the Telegram service would have started with telegraph services from major post offices.

Don

 

Robert Parry the coal merchant says he believes in telephones, he says loudly in the pub, but only the one in Barmouth, that all you have to do is to sit in your office and wait for phone calls for orders.  He is not silly, he hopes that the Barmouth coal merchant will believe him and so will go out of business, leaving him to supply both towns.

 

When I lived on a then new council estate in Tottenham we had a phone installed in the 60s and the line was underground.  Around the corner in the older streets the phone lines came into houses from poles.  The estate in Brentwood that was built about the same time as the one in Tottenham still had telephone lines to houses from poles.

[ChrisN]

Here is a Youtube video of Victorian London.  Two photos that shoot past are the Street Sanitisers, I think spraying water to keep the dust down and one of the 'Flying Dustmen'.  Neither much help, but interesting.

 

On the subject of horses, on one of the videos of London, which I will have to look for again, is a glimpse of a 'Horse Manure Collector' walking along with his bucket and spade over his shoulder.

 

Ok, so no bins in the garden, but maybe a man with a bucket and spade.

[Anotheran]

The southernmost part of what is now Carmelite St in London (now overbuilt by the Thames Embankment) was named Dung Wharf in the 18th century. The exact spot of loading is where the Blackfriars Millennium Pier now sits. So if you board the Thames river boat there you're walking in the footsteps of many a ton of... night soil.

 

Not really relevant to Traeth Mawr, but sort of on topic.

 

Slightly closer to Traeth Mawr both geographically and chronologically is a photo on the Staffordshire Past Track site of 1910 showing night soil collectors (http://www.search.staffspasttrack.org.uk/Details.aspx?&ResourceID=15963). I suspect the transport and clothing would have been fairly similar 15 years earlier. I have to say I was surprised to see the white shirtsleeves! Maybe they should also be collecting the stuff that Robert Parry has been talking in Barmouth

 

Kind regards, Neil

Edited September 30, 2015 by Anotheran

[ChrisN]

The southernmost part of what is now Carmelite St in London (now overbuilt by the Thames Embankment) was named Dung Wharf in the 18th century. The exact spot of loading is where the Blackfriars Millennium Pier now sits. So if you board the Thames river boat there you're walking in the footsteps of many a ton of... night soil.

 

Not really relevant to Traeth Mawr, but sort of on topic.

 

Slightly closer to Traeth Mawr both geographically and chronologically is a photo on the Staffordshire Past Track site of 1910 showing night soil collectors (http://www.search.staffspasttrack.org.uk/Details.aspx?&ResourceID=15963). I suspect the transport and clothing would have been fairly similar 15 years earlier. I have to say I was surprised to see the white shirtsleeves! Maybe they should also be collecting the stuff that Robert Parry has been talking in Barmouth

 

Kind regards, Neil

 

Neil,

Thanks.  The picture of the dustmen looks similar to the one on the video above at 3:12 although the men have white jackets on.  Maybe your one was posed especially and they wanted to look neat.  It looks as if it might just need modelling.

 

As for Robert Parry, I am sorry but there is nothing I can do about him.  He has got worse since he bought his own coal wagon, but more of that when I finally finish building it.

[Penlan]

..... on the Staffordshire Past Track site of 1910 showing night soil collectors (http://www.search.staffspasttrack.org.uk/Details.aspx?&ResourceID=15963). 

It looks as if they have pixilated the night soil being ladeled by the operative on the left.....

But, many thanks for the photo reference

Edited September 30, 2015 by Penlan

[Donw]

Penlan two toilets and a sink between 5 families there's luxury for you!    .  We forget today how different life used to be in 1895 HAVING Gas would have been very modern in rural areas, and not used for heating either most homes were heated by open fires the poorer homes would still be using the fire to do the cooking. Hence Robert Parry would have plenty of customers. 

 

Don

[Penlan]

Donw, not only that but all the units where lit by gas too into the early 60's, this was 'Ossington Buildings' in Marlybone, London.

I think I may still have some of my Grannies 'mantles'.

We knew how to live then..... 

[uax6]

The arms on the poles could be 4 way or 8 way. The transposition was needed on the trunk routes connecting exchanges where the wires ran for miles.

Don

Or 2 or 6 way as well Don!

 

Andy G

[mike morley]

Forgive me if I've missed a mention of this that someone else has already made, but one of the main uses of the village tramway around Abergynolwyn, served by the Talyllyn's village incline, was the removal of "night soil".

I'd be interested to know how "it" coped with being hoisted up the incline after being collected and what the Talyllyn then did with it.

Edited September 30, 2015 by mike morley

[Penlan]

Unfortunatly when my PC went down a couple of years ago I lost all my photo's of early telegraph poles, thus I'm unable at present to illustrate a typical late Victorian Telegraph pole, NOT on a main line, but in principle it has two insulators on each cross piece, but the cross pieces (of wood) were long, short, long, short.... and as stated somewhere above, there was usually a insulator on top of the post too (common/earth, though normally this was via/through the ground - I think).

 

EDIT - Before I've posted, here's one I prepared earlier   >>>>>http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/580-telegraph-poles-old-style-terminal-insulators/

I see Donw contributed to that topic too. 

 

However, ChrisN, whatever else, do make sure you sight through the assumed line of the wires so they will not be chopped through when a signal is changed on/off - I've seen this scenario so many times at exhibitions.

Edited September 30, 2015 by Penlan

[ChrisN]

Forgive me if I've missed a mention of this that someone else has already made, but one of the main uses of the village tramway around Abergynolwyn, served by the Talyllyn's village incline, was the removal of "night soil".

I'd be interested to know how "it" coped with being hoisted up the incline after being collected and what the Talyllyn then did with it.

 

Mike,

How interesting.  Now why would you collect that, unless they dropped it down old shafts.

[ChrisN]

Unfortunatly when my PC went down a couple of years ago I lost all my photo's of early telegraph poles, thus I'm unable at present to illustrate a typical late Victorian Telegraph pole, NOT on a main line, but in principle it has two insulators on each cross piece, but the cross pieces (of wood) were long, short, long, short.... and as stated somewhere above, there was usually a insulator on top of the post too (common/earth, though normally this was via/through the ground - I think).

 

EDIT - Before I've posted, here's one I prepared earlier   >>>>>http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/580-telegraph-poles-old-style-terminal-insulators/

I see Donw contributed to that topic too. 

 

However, ChrisN, whatever else, do make sure you sight through the assumed line of the wires so they will not be chopped through when a signal is changed on/off - I've seen this scenario so many times at exhibitions.

 

Penlan,

I think telegraph poles will be one of the last things to go on the layout but I am glad you mentioned the signals as I may have missed that.  More looking at images for the right thing.

[Donw]

The night soil probably was used by someone as fertiliser. Urine used to be collected for various trades to useful to waste. If nothing else it is better to add it to the compost bins. Cheaper than buying an activator!

 

If we are not careful we will start to sound like the four yorkshiremen (Monty Python lot).

 

You may find some of these photos interesting

http://www.quadhurst.co.uk/ifrm6.html

 

Don

[ChrisN]

The night soil probably was used by someone as fertiliser. Urine used to be collected for various trades to useful to waste. If nothing else it is better to add it to the compost bins. Cheaper than buying an activator!

 

If we are not careful we will start to sound like the four yorkshiremen (Monty Python lot).

 

You may find some of these photos interesting

http://www.quadhurst.co.uk/ifrm6.html

 

Don

 

Don,

Thank you.  The article is very interesting and I shall read it at my leisure.  I know one of the men on Gardeners Question time used to collect his urine and put it on his compost heap.  I am not sure I should suggest that to my wife though.

[uax6]

The other thing to remember about railway telegraph poles is how many wires you really need. The block instruments were often single wire, and then, depending on what other equipment there was (like signal repeaters) the number of wires could (and did) decrease the further you got away from the box.....

 

Andy G

[corneliuslundie]

I think probably it was not so much what the use was for the night soil at Abergynolwyn as that it was the easiest way to get it out of the village.

 

Regarding railway company telegraph poles, a few companies had their own distinctive formats, eg the Midland. I don't know about the Cambrian.

 

And one to file away for when you get round to goods stock, in your period GWR wagons would almost certainly have been red - but let's not go there now, there have been numerous discussions here and elsewhere (I was reminded by a mention on another thread).

 

Good to see more track being laid. You will be getting ahead of me pretty soon.

 

Jonathan

[mike morley]

All this talk of telephone and telegraph poles, but no mention of whose you intend to use.

 

Could I recommend Masokits?  They are what I used on Pentrefan and they were so good I doubt if I'll use anyone else's ever again.  Yes, they are a bit fiddly, but they are so well thought-out and the instructions are so good their reputation for being difficult to build is totally unjustified.

 

What Pentrefan lacks is telegraph wires.  I've seen the stretchy latex string used by American modellers (Is it Lay-zee line?) on a few layouts and it's absolutely first class and perfect for the job - but where do you get it?  Answers on a postcard, please . . .

 

Finally, going back to the subject of poo . . .  (As an old friend of mine once remarked, all conversation eventually reverts to bodily functions)

Back in the 60's and early 70's, when my father had an allotment, the very suggestion of using human poo as manure left him aghast.  I was a daft pre-teen at the time who was reduced to idiot sniggering by such subjects, so his explanation was terse, but I got the impression that the output of non-herbivores contained much that was downright undesirable from a gardeners point of view.

I also know that poo was (and might well still be) a key ingredient in the process of tanning leather and that wee was one means of making wool workable (See Jerry Clifford's comments about the difference between a fulling mill and a tucking mill in his thread about his superb Tucking Mill layout on the 2mm Finescale section)

Edited October 1, 2015 by mike morley

[ChrisN]

The other thing to remember about railway telegraph poles is how many wires you really need. The block instruments were often single wire, and then, depending on what other equipment there was (like signal repeaters) the number of wires could (and did) decrease the further you got away from the box.....

 

Andy G

 

Andy,

Thank you.  As I have said I will have to look at the pictures of the time to see how many wires were used.  I am sure Don will correct me but I am not sure, as I have forgotten, that the Cambrian used block signalling in 1895 which is, I think, why the Abermule disaster happened.  (A train was given back the single line token that it had just handed over and it was not discovered until the train had left.  All the station staff could do was wait for the bang.)  The tokens at the time were kept in the Station Masers office, not the signal box.

 

Signal repeaters.  I am being slightly thick I know, but they would be mechanical?  If so would they be on the poles?

[ChrisN]

I think probably it was not so much what the use was for the night soil at Abergynolwyn as that it was the easiest way to get it out of the village.

 

Regarding railway company telegraph poles, a few companies had their own distinctive formats, eg the Midland. I don't know about the Cambrian.

 

And one to file away for when you get round to goods stock, in your period GWR wagons would almost certainly have been red - but let's not go there now, there have been numerous discussions here and elsewhere (I was reminded by a mention on another thread).

 

Good to see more track being laid. You will be getting ahead of me pretty soon.

 

Jonathan

 

Jonathan,

Thank you.  I did know about the colour of the GWR wagons, but of course that does not mean that when I came to paint them for the first time they would not be say, chocolate and cream, so any mention is always worthwhile.

 

My son asked me today would the layout be working by Christmas.  My reply was that I hoped so, but it would be packed away as the house would be full.  I had hoped the track would have been completed before last Saturday when I took my grandson to a model railway exhibition but it has slipped again.

[ChrisN]

All this talk of telephone and telegraph poles, but no mention of whose you intend to use.

 

Could I recommend Masokits?  They are what I used on Pentrefan and they were so good I doubt if I'll use anyone else's ever again.  Yes, they are a bit fiddly, but they are so well thought-out and the instructions are so good their reputation for being difficult to build is totally unjustified.

 

What Pentrefan lacks is telegraph wires.  I've seen the stretchy latex string used by American modellers (Is it Lay-zee line?) on a few layouts and it's absolutely first class and perfect for the job - but where do you get it?  Answers on a postcard, please . . .

 

Finally, going back to the subject of poo . . .  (As an old friend of mine once remarked, all conversation eventually reverts to bodily functions)

Back in the 60's and early 70's, when my father had an allotment, the very suggestion of using human poo as manure left him aghast.  I was a daft pre-teen at the time who was reduced to idiot sniggering by such subjects, so his explanation was terse, but I got the impression that the output of non-herbivores contained much that was downright undesirable from a gardeners point of view.

I also know that poo was (and might well still be) a key ingredient in the process of tanning leather and that wee was one means of making wool workable (See Jerry Clifford's comments about the difference between a fulling mill and a tucking mill in his thread about his superb Tucking Mill layout on the 2mm Finescale section)

 

Mike,

Thank you.  Masokits sound as though they should be fiendishly difficult.  Telegraph poles are a long way off I am afraid even though we are discussing them.  I still think that most of my structures will have to be removable as I am not convinced I can move the boards without damage to them so telegraph poles will be an interesting task and are unlikely to have wires.

 

Human excrement is treated at the sewage works before it is put back on the land, but there are an awful lot of things in it as well when t gets there.  Someone once said that you should not eat carnivores, probably for much the same reason that you should not use their poo on the garden, although the Chinese seem to get away with it. 

[ChrisN]

I came across this page while I was looking for something else, men's fashion to be exact. It is on a site I have bookmarked but never fully explored. Lots of useful stuff.

[ChrisN]

I have just come across this post in Random Pre Group questions, and it would appear that coal was not delivered in sacks until the mid-thirties.  I have asked Jamie for a reference, but if anyone knows any more about this please let me know.  I will try and look myself for information.

 

Tank you.

[Alister_G]

What Pentrefan lacks is telegraph wires.  I've seen the stretchy latex string used by American modellers (Is it Lay-zee line?) on a few layouts and it's absolutely first class and perfect for the job - but where do you get it?  Answers on a postcard, please . . .

 

 

Mike, there is a UK stockist here:

 

http://www.modelsrgo...ne-0.075mm.html

 

However I found they didn't have a full range of all the colours I wanted, so I bought mine from a Danish stockist here:

 

http://www.skiltesko...qka3hc05j0tv0l2

 

Hope this helps.

 

Chris, sorry for the diversion.

 

Al.

[ChrisN]

Mike, there is a UK stockist here:

 

http://www.modelsrgo...ne-0.075mm.html

 

However I found they didn't have a full range of all the colours I wanted, so I bought mine from a Danish stockist here:

 

http://www.skiltesko...qka3hc05j0tv0l2

 

Hope this helps.

 

Chris, sorry for the diversion.

 

Al.

 

Al,

I am not sure a diversion is possible on this thread.  The information is very useful, and not just for Mike.

[Simond]

as usual, I went off googling...

 

http://www.mybrightonandhove.org.uk/page_id__11541.aspx- not relevant to locale or era, but interesting

 

more like it... http://sowenandsons.co.uk/company-history/3499542

 

http://www.swannscoalsupplies.co.uk/index.php?webpage=aboutus.html

 

now we're talking...

 

http://www.1900s.org.uk/1900s-coalman.htm- lots on this website.

 

not as many dates as we would like, and not a fat lot pre 1920, but perhaps a start...

 

best

Simon