Traeth Mawr -Painting Season, (mostly)

[Anotheran]

Not as early as 1895, but in 1903 Newcastle Emlyn had only 5 members of staff, while in the 1920s and 1930 there were eleven. That's for a station of goods yard, 4 sidings, single engine shed and signal box, though I'm not sure the total includes the signal man. So, somewhat counter-intuitively there were more than twice as many staff in the 1920s than at the turn of the century.

 

Neil

[Stubby47]

Not as early as 1895, but in 1903 Newcastle Emlyn had only 5 members of staff, while in the 1920s and 1930 there were eleven. That's for a station of goods yard, 4 sidings, single engine shed and signal box, though I'm not sure the total includes the signal man. So, somewhat counter-intuitively there were more than twice as many staff in the 1920s than at the turn of the century.

 

Neil

Could the increase be explained by a similar increase in traffic, and of provision of jobs for ex-WW1 veterans ?

[corneliuslundie]

The Cambrian was not exactly rich, and I wonder if the GWR was more generous with staff (initially to handle more traffic) until the decline in traffic set in - different dates in different areas depending on local roads and whether there was a competing bus service (possibly run by the GWR).

 

Thinking about that photo of LLanbrynmair, was that the total staff other than the signalmen and the porter who was on the other turn? But I assume Llanbrynmair is a quieter station than Traeth Mawr.

 

And might Traeth Mawr have had more staff drafted in during the summer to deal with holiday traffic?

 

Anyway, Rule 1 applies, and you do a very nice job painting figures.

 

Jonathan

[Anotheran]

Could the increase be explained by a similar increase in traffic, and of provision of jobs for ex-WW1 veterans ?

 

1896, 1906, 1911 and 1930 timetables show a remarkable consistency with a total of 14 movements (excluding shunting) made up of 5 passenger trains and two goods trains in each direction. However, I've not got the details on the traffic on these trains, so it is possible that there was an increase. There was certainly a peak in the early 1940s, but this was to a large degree the result of troop trains. In the early 20s there was an average of just over 50 NE tickets per day, but sadly I don't have the equivalent for the earlier years. But I suspect you are correct in guessing there was some increase.

 

The provision of veteran jobs is a very interesting idea and quite a distinct possibility to account for some of the increase in staff.

 

Personally I'd be inclined (as per Jonathan's comment about rule 1) to go for a slightly larger staff as they look so good!

 

Neil

[ChrisN]

Thank you all for your replies.  I am going to answer individually as much as I can but some replies overlap.  All the answers have been useful which is why I want to give full replies.  I will try and answer in an order that makes the answers fit together rather than in the order they came in.  So here goes.

[ChrisN]

An interesting question Chris. I agree about an extra porter, maybe also a lad porter who would not have cost much.

 

Are there any staff group photos that could help give a rough idea? 

 

Mikkel,

There are a number of photos of staff groups as they all seemed to appear when a photographer came round.  The only problem is that usually only the Station Master and Shunter are obvious.  There are usually quite a few porters but what they did exactly is a mute point.

 

I would like a lad porter as there is a brilliant photo of one standing in front of a loco looking very smart.  I just need to find the right figure to do it

Edited February 17, 2015 by ChrisN

[ChrisN]

Signalmen?

 

Steve,

Yes of course!  I had missed one off my list so set aside one figure who was going to be the signalman as the Goods Porter but he has now just been promoted.  Thank you.

[ChrisN]

Stu, Jonathan & Neil,

This is where I try and combine answers.  In the 'New History of the Cambrian Railways' there is a reasonable amount on how long railwaymen worked in Victorian Britain due to the fact that they sacked someone who spoke up about it and were reprimanded in the House of Commons.  If I remember rightly there were shifts in the week of 36 hours and this was probably a factor, although denied by the management, in at least one accident. 

 

The rise of the Trade Unions and Government legislation lead to a downward pressure on railwaymen's hours.  I find it interesting that at Newcastle Emlyn there was a doubling of staff and I wonder if it was to do with the shortening of hours. 

 

I used to worry that in the timetable of my narrow gauge railway the first train was about 6:00 am and the last about 8:00pm.  I wondered if this was possible for a small railway and would they need two crews?  I think the answer is no as I could justify the long hours, especially as it is only one week in three.

 

Back to the question in hand, I will try and answer some specifics.

[ChrisN]

A goods booking clerk might be needed, plus a second ticket/admin clerk in the main office.

Maybe a second Goods porter too, especially if there is a goods hoist/crane.

 

If all the staff are out 'on show', there might be additional staff milling about.

 

Stu,

Thank you.  I have on my plan a Goods Shed but until I get the track down, no don't ask, I cannot be exactly certain of how big it would be.  The narrow gauge railway up the road has a cattle dock but I am not sure I can fit one in this station.  I have said previously that Cambrian Coast stations were long and thin and probably 20ft would do it justice.  I have 9¹/₂ plus curves at the end so it is a little cramped and I do not want to make it look and feel even worse.

 

There are six goods trains a day so even though the Cambrian made more money with passengers than goods that is still a fair number so two might be assigned plus the clerk. 

Edited February 17, 2015 by ChrisN

[ChrisN]

I suspect those numbers did include signalmen, possibly for your station one full signalman and one porter/signalman.

 

If it is an exchange siding for the slates I wonder if the slate quarry might employ whoever transfers the slates to standard gauge. Apart from anything else, I am not sure the railway company would want the responsibility for dealing with a fragile cargo like slates. Is there any evidence what happened with the Plynlimon & Hafan exchange siding (I know it wasn't operational for long) as it is probably more like yours than Minffordd or Portmadoc? I'll see if there is anything in the book I have about the line, though there are others I think.

 

Ticket inspectors would not be attached to small stations but might well change trains there and be hanging around on the platform.

 

If there is a goods shed with an office then it would need a clerk. If there isn't enough goods traffic to justify a goods shed then the paperwork would have been done in the main office and there might well not have been a separate goods clerk.

 

Let's see. As a minimum you would need the stationmaster plus an early turn and late turn minion to sell and collect tickets, light and tend the waiting room and other fires, clean the station daily, and keep the books up to date; two individuals to man the signalbox; someone to do deliveries (who might be one of the minions mentioned above and might well use a barrow); and someone in the goods yard. How many of these double up and how many of the positions need two or more people will depend on how busy the station is. I assume there is no refreshment room (not impossible as Moat Lane had one) in which case you need a couple of young ladies plus their manager (male or female but definitely smartly dressed) who may work for a catering company rather than the railway.

 

Of course some of these staff would be present but not visible as they would be inside buildings.

 

Although not directly applicable to the Cambrian, quite a few of the line histories, especially GWR ones, have information on the staff at various dates, though from memory I can't remember too many from such an early date as 1895.

 

Jonathan

 

Jonathan,

Thank you.  I think I will have two in the signal box, although signalmen were known to work long hours he would need a 'goffer' to get the single line tablets as they were often kept in the station, - I should make notes when I am reading books so I can remember when things changed.

 

The situation would be like Towyn and the Talyllyn railway, which of course I have no books about.  I am not sure why as I rather like the engines and coaches from this line but it is the 150th anniversary this year so maybe a visit and a book, although any information from Plynlimon would be great.

 

The Cambrian sold its rights to refreshment rooms to a company whose name escapes me so it is possible.  It all depends on how I can sort out the station building and how large I can make it.  Would they have worn uniforms like the Lyons Tea House?  I suppose the best bet might be Punch Cartoons as railway refreshments were always a good source of humour.

(Waitress in First Class Refreshment room to lady manager.  "This sandwich has been on display for three weeks, what shall I do with it?"

Lady Manager. "Take it round to the Third Class Refreshment Room")

 

If I can get one in it would be nice as the through coaches stop at Traeth Mawr and there are some long waits.  Having said that I cannot remember seeing a picture of one so probably all the entrances were inside

Edited February 17, 2015 by ChrisN

[ChrisN]

Not as early as 1895, but in 1903 Newcastle Emlyn had only 5 members of staff, while in the 1920s and 1930 there were eleven. That's for a station of goods yard, 4 sidings, single engine shed and signal box, though I'm not sure the total includes the signal man. So, somewhat counter-intuitively there were more than twice as many staff in the 1920s than at the turn of the century.

 

Neil

 

Neil,

Thank you, very useful.  Traeth Mawr has less sidings, well maybe, but no engine shed.  It had 23 movements, made up of five goods, one mixed and the others passenger and mail but a lot terminated and returned plus there was the shunting of through coaches.  (More of that later.)  Maybe slightly busier.

 

I am not going to stress over the numbers but it would be nice to get it reasonably right.  Of course what I have not done which I should have was to sit and count all the staff in all the Victorian photos. 

[Steve Sykes]

 

The Cambrian sold its rights to refreshment rooms to a company whose name escapes me so it is possible. 

Possibly Spiers and Pond? They had contracts to run refreshment rooms for a number of companies.

 

Steve

[billbedford]

Not as early as 1895, but in 1903 Newcastle Emlyn had only 5 members of staff, while in the 1920s and 1930 there were eleven. That's for a station of goods yard, 4 sidings, single engine shed and signal box, though I'm not sure the total includes the signal man. So, somewhat counter-intuitively there were more than twice as many staff in the 1920s than at the turn of the century.

 

In 1919 the government was forced to introduce a maximum working day of eight hours after a nine day strike by the NUR and ASLEF.

[Mikkel]

On the issue of staff increases over time, Kevin Robertson discusses staff developments at Winchester (GWR).

 

Staff increased from 10 in 1890 to 17 in 1910 and 18 in 1923. In particular, goods clerks increased from 1 in 1890 to usually 4 between 1916 and 1921. From his comments it appears that staff increases were partly due to the development of traffic on the line (the DNSR line came about fairly late), but was also influenced by periodic variation, eg WW1 war traffic and the Winchester Camp.

 

I suppose what this highlights is that staff numbers fluctuated over the years, and were dependent on long-term or periodic changes in the area around them and the line's ups and downs. Which gives a certain flexibility in how many staff you want, if you can find plausible arguments. 

 

Still, I like the idea of making sure there's a reasonable fit between the station's traffic and nature, and the staff numbers. An interesting topic!

Edited February 18, 2015 by Mikkel

[Donw]

Others have already said the key factor the reduction in working hours. This has a direct knock on effect. For a Signal box instead of two covering the 24 hours you need three and probably affected the weekend as well. There would have been effects on other staff. There may well have been an increase in the level of traffic more goods and parcels to hadle even if the number of trains remained the same. It may also be that the Railway had extra staff doing deliveries etc. as the railway tried to hold on to the traffic.

Don

[ChrisN]

Possibly Spiers and Pond? They had contracts to run refreshment rooms for a number of companies.

 

Steve

 

Steve,

Yep, hole in one!  Thank you.  I had a look through a couple of books but decided to Google Spiers and Pond and found out that they had a contract for the 'Principle' Stations on several railways but I got the impression it was more than that on the Cambrian.  I have seen a picture of Refreshment Rooms so I will check that and then see if I have space.

 

Thank you.

[corneliuslundie]

It was Spiers and Pond. They had a total of 17 refreshment rooms on the Cambrian (Caersws. The Cambrian Railways village (Brian Poole, Oakwood Press) though the list inexplicably misses out Traeth Mawr.

 

You may well find that book worth reading not for the Caersws bits but for the general feel of the railway and for some nice staff photos. There was also an article in Welsh Railways Archive about the women who worked on the Cambrian in the Upper Severn Valley during the second world war (Vol 5 no 7) and there have been a few other articles about families or individuals who worked on the Cambrian at Dolwen and Trefeinon for example.

 

Jonathan

[ChrisN]

It was Spiers and Pond. They had a total of 17 refreshment rooms on the Cambrian (Caersws. The Cambrian Railways village (Brian Poole, Oakwood Press) though the list inexplicably misses out Traeth Mawr.

 

You may well find that book worth reading not for the Caersws bits but for the general feel of the railway and for some nice staff photos. There was also an article in Welsh Railways Archive about the women who worked on the Cambrian in the Upper Severn Valley during the second world war (Vol 5 no 7) and there have been a few other articles about families or individuals who worked on the Cambrian at Dolwen and Trefeinon for example.

 

Jonathan

 

Jonathan,

Thank you.  It seems a lot of the histories miss out Traeth Mawr; I am not sure why.  Perhaps I will have to right a 'Really New History of the Cambrian', or 'Traeth Mawr, Sun, Sea and Railways'.  The second is more likely.

 

I have seen that book for sale on eBay but have not bought it as it does not directly impact on the project but I will look again.  It may not be for a while as I have just received a J15 from Hornby.  Ordered over a year ago if they had asked before they sent it I may have changed my mind, so I need to restrict my spending.  J15?  No excuse except that it was built from 1870, and it may do as a chassis for an Aston Goods?

Edited April 9, 2016 by ChrisN

[ChrisN]

Just a little fun before I talk about timetables.  An engine turned up and so did a photographer so they all rushed outside and stood around it, even though they are not fully painted.  Oh well never mind

 

 

They all think it is an Aston Goods.  Don't tell them yet.

 

If you have been, thanks for looking.

Edited February 18, 2015 by ChrisN

[Stubby47]

Very nice, though it looks like 3 of them have lost their rolls of carpet...

[Donw]

As said Spiers and Pond were refreshment contractors to the Cambrian. As well as the refreshment rooms in 1904 they were also offering Luncheon Baskets at 2/6 and tea baskets at 1/- single 0r 1/6 double the former do not appear to be available on the coast line but tea baskets were obtainable from Barmouth Junction and in the summer from Barmouth. Please remeber that orders should be given to the guard as early as possible.

 

Don

[ChrisN]

As said Spiers and Pond were refreshment contractors to the Cambrian. As well as the refreshment rooms in 1904 they were also offering Luncheon Baskets at 2/6 and tea baskets at 1/- single 0r 1/6 double the former do not appear to be available on the coast line but tea baskets were obtainable from Barmouth Junction and in the summer from Barmouth. Please remeber that orders should be given to the guard as early as possible.

 

Don

 

Don,

Thank you.  I cannot remember where I read this or when it started.  I presume not until the 1900s.  I also assume that having told the guard he told the next station who telegraphed forwards to where the baskets were prepared.

 

I am interested there was a Spiers and Pond at Barmouth Junction.  In early 1895 if you wanted to change in almost every case you could stay on the train until Barmouth and then get out in a less bleak place.  Railway practises I always find interesting.

[corneliuslundie]

There was one at Towyn too, so definitely one at Traeth Mawr..

 

And rather off piste, I was reading in bed this morning and came across a reference to Traeth Mawr. Apart from the fact that it was not a railway book, I am giving no more clues yet as to where I found the reference.

 

Jonathan

[MikeOxon]

Just a little fun before I talk about timetables.  An engine turned up and so did a photographer so they all rushed outside and stood around it, even though they are not fully painted.  Oh well never mind

 

A wonderful example of how the simplest of photos can have so much atmosphere

 

More please!

 

Mike

[ChrisN]

There was one at Towyn too, so definitely one at Traeth Mawr..

 

And rather off piste, I was reading in bed this morning and came across a reference to Traeth Mawr. Apart from the fact that it was not a railway book, I am giving no more clues yet as to where I found the reference.

 

Jonathan

 

Jonathan,

Interesting.  I knew what Traeth Mawr meant once I had chosen it but it was many years later that I realised there was a real one and where it was.  I have walked across it on holiday too many years ago to mention but we were not chased by the bubble to take us back to Portmerion, obviously we did not have a number!  (Prisoner reference to those not in the know.)